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  #1  
Old 09-19-2017, 04:14 AM
Honolulu Honolulu is offline
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What's the final word (if any) on hot stall?

I hope this is better than an oil or tire thread. My bike is a 2010 K1300GTt with 27,000 miles. Love it but it's got the hot stall problem where the bike shuts off as I shift at low rpm from second to neutral, such as coming into a parking space, waiting to make a left turn or at a stop light. Stalls only when rpm is near/at idle speed, as if it were shut off; this is not about hot no-start, bike restarts immediately.

Battery is a year-old Oddyssey PC-680. Voltage with the bike not running, and voltage with engine running are checking out fine. Bike immediately restarts after a stall, suggesting the battery and wiring are delivering enough amps, so no need for revised wiring harness. Battery temperature not an issue after a several hour ride in high-80s temp, two up, over last Sunday.

PO reportedly put in a Barnett carbon fiber clutch. The bike doesn't creep in first with the clutch in, which would suggest a dragging clutch, no blame to be assigned there.

Local dealer has suggested "bring it in" (of course) and they will verify the idle stepper motor. Now I'm not intimate with that item, but apparently it controls air delivery near idle rpm and can get outa whack somehow. Will search up info about that. Will ask to review the O2 sensor output too, but it shouldn't be outa whack at this low mileage. Dealer will also verify latest ECU software, but as of my purchase a year ago, it was up to date.

Someone suggested holding throttle at WOT, turning ignition on, wait ten seconds, turn off ignition, then let go throttle and try a restart. Whatever this is supposed to do, it didn't make a difference on my bike.

I've searched for an read all the threads that seem relevant. I don't believe it's gas quality. I buy gas most frequently at Costco and there are literally dozens of cars waiting in line, every time. They don't have hot stall problems or we'd hear of it. I've used 1/3 can of LubroMoly injector cleaner the last two tanks (still some on hand) to no good effect other than making the FLAP a little richer. I like those guys, and I know that injector cleaners are likely ineffective, but I had to try something.

I don't believe on a seven year old bike that the issue is gas quality, deposits on the intake tract or in the throttle body (some apparently do). All the gas here is Top Tier rated, with five times EPA-mandated detergent levels. I will say that I use 87 octane E10, and am about to try a couple tanks of ethanol free 89 octane (it's what I can get) and see what happens.

The most compelling arguments I've seen are that at idle the bike runs very lean, and any upset in operating parameters causes shutoff. Local dealer (the only one for 3,000 miles) suggested the idle stepper is also potentially an issue. I don't know enough to argue.

GS-911 for sale locally will be mine soon and I'll report 1. if I get it 2. if I can successfully download and install the software and 3. WTF I can do with it, other than to brick my bike.

I'll try check the O2 sensor output somehow as well as it is a crucial player in the rich-lean game.

After that, and failing identification of a specific issue, it appears my choices boil down to a PCIII with dyno tune, or a resistor tuning device such as the Booster Plug. As usual, insert rant about customer engineering a premium BMW.

Any suggestions welcomed. Bring it on.
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  #2  
Old 09-19-2017, 09:18 AM
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Re: What's the final word (if any) on hot stall?

I have a 2015 K1300s MS. In the first year or so, I sometimes had that issue. For me it happened (always) like this: driving along at a low speed, bottom of first gear, usually for a little bit. Pull in the clutch, engine dies instead of settling in at idle. (In retrospect, might have been happening when driving RPM was less than idle RPM, or close to it).

It's not happened since I had a booster plug installed.
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Old 10-29-2017, 04:30 PM
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Re: What's the final word (if any) on hot stall?

I had exactly the same issues with my 2010 K1300gt with low RPM as in approaching a traffic light, intersection etc. the bike would shut off. The restart was never a problem, and now I can do it while coasting, but it is still unsafe.

Here is what I need to do - which last for about 2 years and then the stalling issue comes back:

Updated bike last time and worked for about 4 weeks ADB bike is starting to stall again.
Check and advise
*****Customer approved $279.00 in –person to clean and reset the idle actuator****
Work performed by A.H.
Installed 13 71 7 73 428 :Air Filter K1300 (S=2,removed air box and cleaned throttle plates, and reset the idle actuator . Also cleaned the fuel injectors and reset and adaption values
Sub Total $151.55

Hope this helps a bit.
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Old 11-09-2017, 03:11 AM
Honolulu Honolulu is offline
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Re: What's the final word (if any) on hot stall?

Thanks for that Grommeck. It's pretty much as my only local dealer offered: clean throttles and idle actuator reset.

How sticky a job is this? I gots tools and a ride while the bike may be down. Fairing bits have to come off, gas tank out, then.... I have little or no idea what an idle actuator is or looks like.

Charlie
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Old 11-09-2017, 11:42 AM
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Re: What's the final word (if any) on hot stall?

I have had all that done a few years ago and my stalling stopped for awhile. On my delaer's advice, I used Techron additive, usually the BMW brand every tankful and it helped. This past year I stopped using Techron, and I am getting the same issue, in fact as late as last week in cooler temperatures,

I plan on leaving the bike with the dealer soon, as winter sets in, to do all that again.if there was a way to reset the lean settings, it should be done.

This is the only real issue i have with this great machine.
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  #6  
Old 11-09-2017, 01:10 PM
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Re: What's the final word (if any) on hot stall?

A couple of things, do not equate automobiles and their problems with your bike in how they react. Your particular model K bike is famous for your drive-ability problems. Do not use 87 octane fuel, move up to 91 or 92. And try a couple of tanks of that ethanol free. Many folks have solved this by making sure the idle air valve in the air box is functioning properly, using good fuel and, wait for it... installing a fuel teasing device. Either an accelerator module or the other one which I can not remember the name of or AF-Xied O2 manipulator from beemerboneyard. I have an accelerator module in my K1300S and it has not stalled since installation. Seen it in other bikes too. One member solved the problem in both his and his wife's bikes by buying FJR's .
Years back (software should be in your bike) 2008, a software change was made for K bike stalling. It changed the RPM point where fuel was added after closure of the throttle. It used to be about 1400/1500 but the change bumped it up to 1800 RPM so the engine could recover to idle and not stall out due to momentum. Helped but not for every condition. Then the Air box was addressed. You should have the new model in your bike but that is not the complete answer obviously. Run some Seafoam fuel additive through the bike with that ethanol free gas to clean things up. Chevron fuel is a good choice if possible. I love it when I can buy Sinclair.
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Old 11-09-2017, 03:59 PM
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Re: What's the final word (if any) on hot stall?

I read all the reports of this stall problem and thanked my "Lucky Stars" the Mighty 2009 K1300S was running problem free. Then Shaazamm, he shut-off in heavy slow traffic on the way home from work. Continual restart attempts only diminished the starter/battery cranking power... down to zero response, not even a click.

I remembered the I-BMW reports and just sat around for awhile. Decided to call a tow truck as I had a half mile long two lane bridge to cross and the whole world stops when that bridge is plugged up.

Stripped my helmet, gloves and started dialing for the roll-back and a severe towing fee... hit the starter one last time and fired up like lightning had charged the battery! Back in the saddle taking side roads and entered the bridge approach and slowed way down, let my lane clear for a couple of minutes and rode like Evel Knievel cresting the top doing 80 plus in a 45 zone, coasting down was now in my favor. Ran perfect after that.

Visited Bob's BMW and got the current information, BMW knows of the problem and has an upgraded battery harness kit. Ordered one and a new starter relay, cost is a bit over $200. Tore the bike down as I did not want to pay the estimated $175 and wait a couple of hours to have it done for me. What a Dumbass!



I did not expect to see plug-in connectors on the harness. In fact I can't see where they connect.



Checkout that harness... looks like a killer Black Mamba slithering in the bowels of the frame.



Like everything else in the BMW World, more tools, parts and technical info was needed the deeper the hole grew during disassembly.



I purchased a new starter relay... probably the issue all along. The harness is wrapped with a thousand feet of tape and cable tied like the space shuttle.



I found this interesting, the amount of trash sitting on the engine behind the cylinders... scooped up a butterfly and a half ton of gravel.

The breather hoses to the crankcase were both coated in a slimy snot from moisture entrapped in the hoses. A good case for changing your oil due to condensation.

Technical information is not on my BMW Disc in any specific details where and how the harness hooks-up, just going to unwrap the tape and follow The Yellow Brick Road.

Several maintenance pictorials are available from I-BMW members and they have been helpful, but the cost to have Bob's do the work sure looks like the road best taken. Then again, I will gain so much self respect and pride from doing it myself!

I think I will need more tape!

What really pisses me off... both bikes are down. The R1200GSA needs post DGR servicing. The good news was the Hex Can Module and Metzler "Tourance" Tire installations before the trip ran flawlessly.

I won't know much about the engine stall problem until next summer probably, so until then I'm diving into the deep end. I hate wires...



Just a quick note after reviewing the thread... there are several stall problems and they are different. The most common is engine stalling when pulling to a stop. My issue was a complete shut-off with a degraded restart due to excessive heat due to a less than optimum cooling effect in start-stop traffic, which should not happen. The fan works and the coolant temps were good, no overheating with the engine.
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Old 11-20-2017, 09:39 PM
Honolulu Honolulu is offline
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Re: What's the final word (if any) on hot stall?

Thanks to the latest contributors, Beech and Zato.

Here in Hawaii there are two (only two) refineries. No gas is imported, all the crude comes from Indonesia. This is nice b/c it insulates us from disruptions in Arab-controlled supply, or hurricane disasters in the Gulf of Mexico, but not so nice b/c I think all the gas is the same. I'll start asking the retail vendors where they get their gas, and expect a lot of blank looks of what we here call "stink eye". Meaning "GTFO I ain't gonna talk about it, buy my gas or hit ze road."

Gas here has historically been the highest priced in the USA on average. Unleaded non-ethanol "race gas" is sold right across the street from my office, convenient BUT....only available as 87 octane, and for MUCH more than 91 octane E-10. It would be cheaper to run (a lot of) Techron, but I tried a bottle of LubroMoly injector cleaner without good result.

I would speculate that one significant difference between K44 and car engines is the compression ratio. Apparently this makes the engine sensitive... just what a guy needs, a(nother) whiny sensitive beautiful thing to take care of. After that, I would join the rant about BMW's fuel control software, but I really haven't any authority other than to note the satisfied users of resistor tuning devices such as you recommend. So there must be something to it and it's the path I'll likely take.

Zato: seems you that in addition to hot stall you have the no-hot-restart issue, which I read the wiring kit is supposed to remedy. Hope it works for you, but it's not the issue I have; my bike (so far) always restarts immediately. Nice pictures of the naked bike, I 'spec I'll be seeing some of that, shortly down the road.

My bike (as of a year ago) had all the current software loaded and all recalls had been addressed. But that was then...
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Old 11-26-2017, 08:10 PM
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Re: What's the final word (if any) on hot stall?

My stalling issue was related to oil in the air box from my mechanic putting too much oil in the bike. The stalling was getting worse until another mechanic saw the overfill and oil in the air box. Fixing these too issues cured the stalling. I was getting ready to dump the POS because it did not use to stall. Finding those issues saved me from buying another bike.
The hunting idle RPM when bike was hot was cured with non ethanol premium fuel. I need to ride 21 miles to the gas station to get the non ethanol premium. It is worth it for my K13GT because it is like a new bike now.
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Old 11-26-2017, 09:50 PM
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Re: What's the final word (if any) on hot stall?

I'd suggest a Booster Plug, too.. they are designed to solve this very problem... worth a try...
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Old 11-27-2017, 10:03 AM
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Re: What's the final word (if any) on hot stall?

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Originally Posted by Pirate
I'd suggest a Booster Plug, too.. they are designed to solve this very problem... worth a try...

I have a BP installed already on the K1300GT.
Did not work on my Camhead GS because it caused too much popping with a closed throttle. Guess the mixture was too rich and fuel was hitting the hot exhaust.
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Old 11-27-2017, 06:46 PM
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Re: What's the final word (if any) on hot stall?

" One member solved the problem in both his and his wife's bikes by buying FJR's "

That's an easy way to solve the problem.
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Old 11-28-2017, 01:39 AM
Honolulu Honolulu is offline
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Re: What's the final word (if any) on hot stall?

Christmas is approaching and it may come to pass that Santa puts a Booster Plug in my little stocking. I wear 13EEE shoes, so it should fit.
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Old 11-28-2017, 01:27 PM
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Re: What's the final word (if any) on hot stall?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Honolulu
Christmas is approaching and it may come to pass that Santa puts a Booster Plug in my little stocking. I wear 13EEE shoes, so it should fit.

Same type of unit, 1/2 the cost, get the one with the extended sensor. Run it forward and in the air stream by the bottom of the right side snorkel.
http://www.sol2.be/Performance/ENG/Order/page_BMW.html
You can see it lowers the perceived air temp by 20*C on the GS-911. There is a lot of controversy on these but they do make a difference in some problems. My bike has not stalled in years since I installed this. And the throttle response lag has been reduced.
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Old 11-28-2017, 01:48 PM
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Re: What's the final word (if any) on hot stall?

Thanks Beech.

I suspect some of the controversy arises from having bought a "premium" bike, then having to resort to resistor tuning a.k.a. "cheating" to get it running right. Well, ya gots to do what needs doing, and there are several ways to skin a cat, as the aftermarket shows us.
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Old 11-28-2017, 02:14 PM
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Re: What's the final word (if any) on hot stall?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beech
My bike has not stalled in years since I installed this. And the throttle response lag has been reduced.

Same here. 2015 MS model. The less you open the throttle, the more difference there is with the Booster Plug. Lag gone, and for me that was the main reason I stalled it as I'd be engaging the clutch and expecting some power to happen when it didn't. That performance lag around 5000 rpm was also much reduced.
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Old 11-28-2017, 03:08 PM
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Re: What's the final word (if any) on hot stall?

Hijack, lets not forget that some bikes react very badly to ethanol in the fuel also. It all contributes to problems in a way.
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Old 11-28-2017, 03:59 PM
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Re: What's the final word (if any) on hot stall?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beech
Hijack, lets not forget that some bikes react very badly to ethanol in the fuel also. It all contributes to problems in a way.

Mine is fine with ethanol in the fuel. Everyone has it here in Phoenix through the winter months, for pollution control.
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Old 11-28-2017, 04:47 PM
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Re: What's the final word (if any) on hot stall?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobby
" One member solved the problem in both his and his wife's bikes by buying FJR's "

That's an easy way to solve the problem.

It worked. 22 k miles on hers and 24 k on mine with one fuse failure that lost some features on my bike but I was still able to ride the last 900 miles on our trip. Replaced the fuse 2 k miles ago and no more problems. That was the sum total of problems. But I agree it was a radical solution to the problems we'd had.
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Old 01-19-2018, 03:52 PM
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Re: What's the final word (if any) on hot stall?

Well sure enough, Santa delivered and I installed the Accelerator device. First time under the fairing, whatta lotta screws, and I have three left over. But a long two-up day's ride (for here anyway, it wasn't more than 100 miles) found the problem SEEMS to be NEARLY gone. Not entirely gone as it did hot stall on me once and I think I caught another before rpm dropped past the point of no return.

See at http://www.sol2.be/Performance/ENG/Home/page.html.

Their installation pages have tiny pictures and when I got deep into things, not being familiar with what the bits I saw were or did, I augmented their directions with a little online research. But all went well and as reported by another person the install for a first-timer does take about five hours.

That five hours included swapping out the plastic QC on the fuel tank for a metal one.
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Old 02-17-2018, 05:30 PM
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Re: What's the final word (if any) on hot stall?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pirate
I'd suggest a Booster Plug, too.. they are designed to solve this very problem... worth a try...

Hi Jerry,

Could you explain the Booster Plug you mentioned?

Thanks, Greg.
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Old 02-17-2018, 06:44 PM
Honolulu Honolulu is offline
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Re: What's the final word (if any) on hot stall?

Well, rats. The Accelerator did not solve the hot stall issue. But I did get more familiar with the bikee, what's under the plastic and how it comes on and off, which is a good thing. Took out the K&N air filter and put in the real thing. No difference there either. The K&N oil filter has been replaced with a Mahle.

Next up is to learn the GS-911 I bought second hand, and perform the idle actuator synchronization... I've done the throttle synch and to no avail. Some say the latter is not effective in K44 bikes, but try anyway, eh?

Whether it's a Booster Plug or Accelerator, the effect is the same, generally: to make the ECU think it's 20 degrees colder, thus causing the ECU to richen the mixture. That's the short version anyway, some use of the Search function will bring up more details that we don't really need to know. But hey, storage space at the Department of Useless Information isn't full yet.
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Old 02-17-2018, 07:23 PM
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Re: What's the final word (if any) on hot stall?

Greg
Here is a link to booster plug. there is one at half price called the accelerator plug from the Netherlands. They are controversial, work for some and not others. And a variety of opinions on the theory of them. My bike and one other they did solve some problems. Basically only work in change of state of the throttle for a second or so. Enough to solve some issues.
https://www.boosterplug.com/shop/frontpage.html
Here is the accelerator site:
http://www.sol2.be/Performance/ENG/Home/page.html
Sorry for the thread hijack, only intended for clarification and please not to start a discussion on merits, do a search for that.
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Old 02-18-2018, 12:21 AM
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Re: What's the final word (if any) on hot stall?

Quote:
Originally Posted by larrykay
I have had all that done a few years ago and my stalling stopped for awhile. On my delaer's advice, I used Techron additive, usually the BMW brand every tankful and it helped.

Your dealer is a fool! There is no way that adding a Super Detergent like Techron to the oil can possibly result in a solution to hot start. This simply shows your dealer hasn't a clue!

8 years ago my K1200GT had the same problem and my dealer said the same thing. Later, when I phoned BMW canada about this and told him about the dealer's "Techron solution" the BMW Canada guy said "He said WHAT??!!!" Then he muttered under his breath something like "Good God... where do they get these ridiculous ideas?"

For the proper way to troubleshoot, and a likely REAL solution, check out my post at......
http://www.i-bmw.com/showthread.php?t=62199
....then scroll down to post #17.
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Old 02-18-2018, 03:59 AM
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Re: What's the final word (if any) on hot stall?

Thanks Bob
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Old 02-19-2018, 02:20 AM
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Re: What's the final word (if any) on hot stall?

Reading this thread we appear to be talking two different deals. There's the "Hot Stall" and there's the "Hot Start." I've had both problems and I'll try and relate what I know.

Hot stall, which was the original question, is a thing that was addressed in the U.S. as a formal recall after a lot of noise raised by owners. In Canada we weren't so lucky as the dealers here (or at least in Toronto) won't even acknowledge it as a "thing." Very common problem particularly with K13's of a certain vintage 2009-2010 apparently.

An indie mechanic I found, who is now at the BMW dealer in Barrie, made a minor adjustment to my throttle guides and the problem disappeared for good. I mean gone. Sorry I don't have any more details. I tried the Techron thing initially and that was to no effect. There are several posited solutions out there to do with throttle valve switches etc. This adjustment to the throttle guide did it for me. Long story short it's a function of them not being set correctly originally. No parts replacements or additions (Booster plugs etc.) need be made.

The "Hot start" is something else I'm apparently blessed with and I'm going to have it dealt with, or deal with it myself, by getting that replacement harness kit. Was an occasional problem but got quite bad last fall if I tried a hot start with the grip heaters on. I am going to take a run at the dealer in Barrie to see if they'll give me a break on it. I'm not hopeful. My experience with BMW dealers hasn't been great.
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Old 07-12-2018, 05:52 PM
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Re: What's the final word (if any) on hot stall?

I have not been watching any forums for quite a while.

My K13GT started stalling again. If you see my posts above I had discovered that oil was in my airbox previously.

Well, it happened again when my oil level was slightly above MAX. Bike started running rough at idle and stalling a few times.

I now keep the oil level below MAX and it has been running smooth as silk.

Not sure if anyone else has seen oil in their airbox.
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Old 07-16-2018, 01:57 PM
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Re: What's the final word (if any) on hot stall?

Interesting Gordo. Come to mention it, I recently completed an oil change, and I had a single incident of a stall. Something I hadn't had in over a year. On a check of oil level I found it was a shade over MAX too. Removed some and there has been no recurrence.


I think it's probably an additional cause not the most common cause. I still swear by the adjustment that was made I described in previous post.
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Old 07-16-2018, 05:21 PM
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Re: What's the final word (if any) on hot stall?

It is interesting.

I can not say for sure of course. Never had a stalling issue until maybe 1 1/2 years ago.

It does seem to be related in my case. I was calling the bike a POS before my mechanic drained oil from my airbox. Then bike was perfect until I added a little oil when it had cooled too much already. Went above MAX when hot and started stalling again. Lowered oil and after after a few miles it was idling smooth again.

How many airboxes have an oil drain?

I am slightly below MAX on the oil now and will be riding in some serious heat this week. Will continue to monitor.
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Old 07-16-2018, 09:27 PM
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Re: What's the final word (if any) on hot stall?

Absolutely smooth today while stuck in traffic with bike showing an ambient temperature between 90 to 94F. Rode 110 miles today in the CO hot sun. So much nicer than when it was stalling at idle consistently.

For my bike it must be easy for the oil to get sucked in the Airbox if oil above full when hot. I guess the oil level can also vary a little depending if the oil cooler has drained to the reservoir or not. I only check when absolutely hot now too.

Just my experience with the K13GT 2009 model.

However, I now have no excuse to get a S1000XR...
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Old 07-16-2018, 11:49 PM
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Re: What's the final word (if any) on hot stall?

Your dealer is a fool! There is no way that adding a Super Detergent like Techron to the oil can possibly result in a solution to hot start. This simply shows your dealer hasn't a clue!


Bob, I bet he meant adding it to the gasoline?


On the 4 cylinder K bikes with hot start issues, I am now 7000 miles into having the supplemental wire harness installed in my bike, still have the original battery from before when there was a failure to start almost every day. All is good, no failures to start when hot.
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Old 07-17-2018, 12:19 PM
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Re: What's the final word (if any) on hot stall?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slam
An indie mechanic I found, who is now at the BMW dealer in Barrie, made a minor adjustment to my throttle guides and the problem disappeared for good. I mean gone. Sorry I don't have any more details.

What are throttle guides?
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