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"K13S/R" Technical Q&A K1200S/R Technical Questions/Answers

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  #61  
Old 07-26-2018, 11:06 AM
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Re: A thought about clutch drag

I took Bengarzyís advice and put a K12 slave cylinder on the bike. It has made a difference. Itís not transformative but noticeable. Itís gone from a thwack to a clunk. So this slave does seem to address increased space when the clutch is pulled in. Personally the added pull has not bothered my hand. A benefit of the short pull needed to change gears. These Ďoldí slaves are relatively cheep and abundant on EBay. Bleeding the thing was time consuming. At this point, if I were to prioritize dealing with this clutch, first would be to bleed the slave. Air in the line could be part of the problem.

Having had this clutch apart five times now, some almost immediately after a run, I think the thrust adapter, two slots, delivers plenty of oil. I made the mistake of drilling a few more holes in the hope. The internal plates were wet with oil as well as both ends. I think I introduced too much oil, therefore more drag. A machinist is filling these and then Iíll go back to the grooved plates.

One other note; when reassembling the plates on the hope, I smeared a small amount of oil on the steels. With the bike all back together, I started it in neutral. I put it into first, just a click! Too good to be true. Put it back into neutral gave it some gas. Back to idle and put it into first, clunk. I tried several more times with longer pauses between neutral and first. Just clunk. So does that point to less oil needed?
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  #62  
Old 07-28-2018, 11:51 AM
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Re: A thought about clutch drag

I also took Bengarzyís suggestion of dispensing with the Ďanti-judderí spring. Still using all the OEM steels and friction plates, I replaced the narrower friction plate with a new Barnett plate. So far Iíve noticed no difference.

From here on is speculation on my part. I read and look and try to think like oil. Oil Head!

The ring the Belleville spring rides on has teeth that fit like a steel on my clutch. So this does not contribute any wear to the hope. Just mentioning this because 404ís video shows a plain washer, which with time might cause wear not being locked in place. Photo below. This is a 2009 K13R.

I donít know if BMW calls this an Ďanti-judderí spring. But Iím wondering if this is its true purpose. Squawk, shudder and judder are common names for what is an oscillation between slip and grab of the clutch plates. What Iíve been reading assigns three phases to the clutch plates coming together. Squeeze phase where large amounts of oil are moved out of the way. Squash phase, where some of the lubricant within the porous friction material releases and carries away waste. The Adhesive phase where the oil film is gone and the two surfaces lockup. Judder takes place between the last two, the oscillation. This seems to point to lubrication, not enough or too much. My guess would be on the too much side. But the other point they made was lubricant degradation. Old oil that has oxidized as well as being dirty contributes to added friction. I would be interested to know if anyone was experiencing judder and with a routine change of oil saw it diminish or disappear.

Returning to the Ďanti-judderí spring. In position, the edge of this spring stands just proud of the friction plate. It is actually pushing the steel away from the friction plate. BMW must have thought this important. Because almost 1/3rd of the friction material has been lost to accommodate that spring. The outer two friction plates in the pack are what begin the transfer of torque from the motor to last one that provides the torque to the transmission. These are the two plates that show the most wear. There is also the question, why would the cure for Ďjudderí take place at that particular plate?

As 404 points out, this Belleville spring stands proud of the last friction, this adds to the clutch lever travel. Offers a wider range of hand control over engagement. There is potentially another side to this benefit. The idea of a multi plate clutch is size reduction. The required friction area that would be on a single plated clutch, is now spread between multiple plates whoís total friction area equals a large single. So with the use of this Belleville spring, uneven engagement has been introduced. Seven steels and seven friction plates are now entering the phases toward lockup before the last plate. When the separating ability of the spring is overcome, there is greater inertia behind the pack as it contacts the last plate. Instead of an even progression through out the pack, that last plate takes on more force. I would watch for wear in this area. If the proper amount of oil is delivered it may be of little concern. But history says oil and clutch have a challenging relationship.

Keep in mind the Ďclunkí and the K13 clutch slave is 34mm, where the K12 is 32mm. BMW must have gotten enough complaints about the heavy clutch of the K12, they decided to increase the size of the slave on the K13. As Bengarzy pointed out, the larger the piston the less throw at the thrust adapter. This means less separation of the clutch plates, Ďclunkí. So to help compensate for the loss of throw, they add the Belleville spring to encourage plate separation at one of these critical end friction plates. This could be the real reason for the Belleville spring. BMW has compensated for the loss of throw with this solution. Their costs do not require any new castings, machining or new master cylinder.

BMW decided that this last friction plate, with the Belleville spring, could be reduced from 11mm high friction pads to 7mm pads and still preform. If that friction plate is replaced with a full size plate, this reduction is an indicator of how much one could alter the individual pads elsewhere. The total loss of friction surface through grooving, channeling, whatever, could equal that by which the last plate is reduced by.

I hope to see some practical results in about a week. The Good The Bad and The Ugly.

New word; Tribology - a legitimate name for an area of study, The Mechanics of Contacting Surfaces. Who could have guessed? Who would bother? Shedding time off my hands!
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  #63  
Old 08-04-2018, 12:35 AM
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Re: A thought about clutch drag

The good, the bad and the ugly. The ugly are the steel plates. Too many ideas have been tried. These are at the end of being useful. Does anyone out there have an old set they donít foresee any need for? I will pay costs to mail them to me.

The bad is I have not found perfection. The pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. I think itís up to 9 or 10 times of opening up the bike. Iím now fast, really fast.

The good, real progress. Iíll note just points that have resulted in improvement. First was putting a K12 slave cylinder in place of the original K13ís. Like I said, it was not transformative but noticeable in drag reduction. Next was putting the Belleville spring back in the clutch pack. Again, the improved effect was not subjective. The torsion drag was less bit still way too dominant.

To check how much torsion drag is present, this is what I do. Torsion drag I believe is the main cause of the clunk. When pulling in the clutch lever the friction and steel plates separate. This should allow the transmission steel plates to remain relatively motionless. Switching between gears with little racket. All the while the engine still turns the friction plates. If there is not enough space between the plates or too much oil, while in neutral this oil will spin with the engine side and cause the steels on the transmission side to spin up. Then you have the clunk when going into gear and suddenly stopping the rotating mass of the steels. So with the back wheel off the ground, start the engine. If the drag is really great, you may see the back wheel start to move. You are in neutral. Now pull the clutch lever in and drop into first. Likely a clunk. Keep the clutch lever pulled in and shift into neutral. Count to 2 and with the clutch lever still in, drop back into first. Normally with these bikes a clunk. The clutch plates even though separated have spun up while in neutral. Torsion drag is in full display.

Today with some small alterations, I could do what I just described but wait 5 - 10 seconds and not get a clunk going into first. The plates were not getting spun up to the same degree. On my ride I did not get a consistent click going into first. I have an idea as to why. I have noted there appears to be plenty of oil in the area of the first and last plate in the clutch pack. So I was feeling a bit lazy and altered just the outer two steels. I have now altered the next two steels in and will reassemble the bike tomorrow. The area of plenty of oil is deeper than just the first and last plates. Iím now getting optimistic that there is an answer to Ďclunkí.

I will go into my thinking and approach later, especially if I do find that pot of gold! Here is a photo of this last alteration that has made such a difference. Some of what is seen is likely of little use, but there was an idea behind it. I need fresh steels to select what I think works and make just those alterations.

I was at a friends today telling him what I was up to. He said follow me. He pulled a box off a shelf that had the clutch plates to one of his Nortonís. This was a 1973 he is restoring. The friction plates were solid bronze! Beautiful! But what he pointed out was a single large eccentric groove. Unlike what I have tried, this groove trailed off the far edge of the plate. The plate would rid itself of oil. Like I said long ago, very little is truly original.
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  #64  
Old 08-04-2018, 05:40 AM
Bengarzy Bengarzy is offline
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Re: A thought about clutch drag

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarecrow
The good, the bad and the ugly. The ugly are the steel plates. Too many ideas have been tried. These are at the end of being useful. Does anyone out there have an old set they donít foresee any need for? I will pay costs to mail them to me.

The bad is I have not found perfection. The pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. I think itís up to 9 or 10 times of opening up the bike. Iím now fast, really fast.

The good, real progress. Iíll note just points that have resulted in improvement. First was putting a K12 slave cylinder in place of the original K13ís. Like I said, it was not transformative but noticeable in drag reduction. Next was putting the Belleville spring back in the clutch pack. Again, the improved effect was not subjective. The torsion drag was less bit still way too dominant.

To check how much torsion drag is present, this is what I do. Torsion drag I believe is the main cause of the clunk. When pulling in the clutch lever the friction and steel plates separate. This should allow the transmission steel plates to remain relatively motionless. Switching between gears with little racket. All the while the engine still turns the friction plates. If there is not enough space between the plates or too much oil, while in neutral this oil will spin with the engine side and cause the steels on the transmission side to spin up. Then you have the clunk when going into gear and suddenly stopping the rotating mass of the steels. So with the back wheel off the ground, start the engine. If the drag is really great, you may see the back wheel start to move. You are in neutral. Now pull the clutch lever in and drop into first. Likely a clunk. Keep the clutch lever pulled in and shift into neutral. Count to 2 and with the clutch lever still in, drop back into first. Normally with these bikes a clunk. The clutch plates even though separated have spun up while in neutral. Torsion drag is in full display.

Today with some small alterations, I could do what I just described but wait 5 - 10 seconds and not get a clunk going into first. The plates were not getting spun up to the same degree. On my ride I did not get a consistent click going into first. I have an idea as to why. I have noted there appears to be plenty of oil in the area of the first and last plate in the clutch pack. So I was feeling a bit lazy and altered just the outer two steels. I have now altered the next two steels in and will reassemble the bike tomorrow. The area of plenty of oil is deeper than just the first and last plates. Iím now getting optimistic that there is an answer to Ďclunkí.

I will go into my thinking and approach later, especially if I do find that pot of gold! Here is a photo of this last alteration that has made such a difference. Some of what is seen is likely of little use, but there was an idea behind it. I need fresh steels to select what I think works and make just those alterations.

I was at a friends today telling him what I was up to. He said follow me. He pulled a box off a shelf that had the clutch plates to one of his Nortonís. This was a 1973 he is restoring. The friction plates were solid bronze! Beautiful! But what he pointed out was a single large eccentric groove. Unlike what I have tried, this groove trailed off the far edge of the plate. The plate would rid itself of oil. Like I said long ago, very little is truly original.

The Norton clutch you saw with bronze plates and eccentric grooves is the race dry clutch, used it on my race sidecar outfit, the groves are to prevent distortion not to fling oil Iím afraid.
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  #65  
Old 08-04-2018, 07:44 AM
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Re: A thought about clutch drag

This guy just got back from some Norton rally. He is really into these bikes. He had photos of, if I remember correctly, the Norton Manx on his walls. Which he said was a famous one. His is not a racer, a 750 Commando. I donít know Nortonís, but he said they run in an oil bath, pointing out the burned oil patches on these bronzes. These he said sort of act like glazing and need periodic cleaning. He has two of these bikes with the one under restoration. Polished up they would be little abstract art pieces.

Maybe you would know why front to back the grooved areas were not where one side would cancel the weight of the other. I didnít spend a great deal of time examining them all, three I think. But it did stand out that the grooves were not opposite from front to back. The grooved looked to be about 1/8Ē wide, so a fair amount of material was removed.
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  #66  
Old 08-04-2018, 10:28 AM
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Re: A thought about clutch drag

A certain degree of patience, determination and Zen is required to own a Norton. Mine was a 1966 750 Scrambler (P11) with the Lucas magneto. As much as I loved that motorcycle, I would not use it as an engineering model.
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  #67  
Old 08-12-2018, 10:14 AM
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Re: A thought about clutch drag

I noted early on that when looking at the clutch plates, both ends were wet with oil but the middle was dry and there was a steel that had some film on only one side. From the beginning my approach was to shed oil from the steels to deal with this torsion drag. I hit a plateau where I was having little effect. The flow of oil was greater than could be shed. I was encountering what was said to be a problem, lack of oil. Shifting my approach from shedding oil to reducing oil, is showing results.

I now have a level of oil reaching all the plates. I donít have a complete balance of oil to both side on each steel. But Iím slowly finding ways to sort of tune these. Diverting the oil from a particular hole to some extent. The one area that looks to be the most difficult to control is the pressure plates supply of oil. The oil at the hope end has been getting better. Most of the plates are supplied with oil by a single hole. But the pressure plate has all six channels leading to it. And because the pressure plate moves, there is a gap allowance for this that I think oil also moves through. So this end of the pack is always wet with oil. I think at this time this is the biggest contributor to the drag.

The level of clunk is down. But still too much hammer to steel. I can consistently shift into first, still holding the clutch in, shift to neutral, still holding the clutch in and wait 8 seconds, then go into first with little spin up of the clutch. This is a big improvement.

Iím waiting for some OEM steels to arrive. The steels Iíve been working with are too cluttered with things Iíve tried. Iím ready to apply just what seems to have contributed. In the mean time Iíll see what I can come up with for the pressure plate. Iíve had this bike opened up 14 -15 times! 20 minutes to get the bike up on its stand and the clutch on the bench.
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  #68  
Old 08-12-2018, 10:28 AM
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Re: A thought about clutch drag

Thanks for the amazing detail and update. Iím really curious now to see where you end up.
Did I read right that you blocked some of the oil passage holes?
If so what did you use to do that?
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  #69  
Old 08-12-2018, 01:49 PM
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Re: A thought about clutch drag

A bit of background to your question to what I used to fill holes. I went to a nearby machinist to have him weld up the holes I had made. Once he looked at the hope he said there was no way he could do that and have the whole remain unaffected. Expressing discouragement, he recommended JB Weld. I know this as an epoxy and asked if it would hold up in its environment. He said with full confidence that it would. This is a one man shop and I asked if the chopper outside was his. He said yes it was. OK, I have to give this guy some credibility. Not that Iím a chopper fan, but itís a motorcycle.

So JB Weld is what Iíve been using. Looking at a competing product stated properties said it would stand up to a continuous 300F and 350F for a short while. Iíd long ago tossed out the info on the JB I already had. Also stated it could be tapped. So far Iíve seen no effect on my filled holes.
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Old 08-12-2018, 05:58 PM
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Re: A thought about clutch drag

You might check on Devcon Plastic Steel. They also have Ceramic, Aluminum and Bronze.
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  #71  
Old 08-12-2018, 08:21 PM
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Re: A thought about clutch drag

Good to know. The ceramic repair putty had the highest heat resistance, up to about 350*F. JB Weld is stable up to 500*F. I didnít find a small quantity of the Devcon. The price and size was way too much for a small application like this. Do you know where you can get a small kit and have you used this?
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Old 08-12-2018, 09:53 PM
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Re: A thought about clutch drag

It's been many years. I just recalled that Devcon existed. Didn't know the temperature ranges. The application used didn't need heat tolerance. Just a suggestion.
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  #73  
Old 08-13-2018, 01:18 AM
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Re: A thought about clutch drag

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarecrow
A bit of background to your question to what I used to fill holes. I went to a nearby machinist to have him weld up the holes I had made. Once he looked at the hope he said there was no way he could do that and have the whole remain unaffected. Expressing discouragement, he recommended JB Weld. I know this as an epoxy and asked if it would hold up in its environment. He said with full confidence that it would. This is a one man shop and I asked if the chopper outside was his. He said yes it was. OK, I have to give this guy some credibility. Not that Iím a chopper fan, but itís a motorcycle.

So JB Weld is what Iíve been using. Looking at a competing product stated properties said it would stand up to a continuous 300F and 350F for a short while. Iíd long ago tossed out the info on the JB I already had. Also stated it could be tapped. So far Iíve seen no effect on my filled holes.

Call upon a red seal professional welder with experience beyond welding pipilines and dozer blades.
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  #74  
Old 08-13-2018, 08:13 AM
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Re: A thought about clutch drag

The guy is no hack and I appreciated his honesty. His recommendation has turned out to work just fine at a fraction of the cost if it was at all possible to weld down in those gullies. At this stage of experimentation, Iím not about to sell the house! Itís worked out just fine and he will be the first one I go to when I need something in the future.
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Old 08-13-2018, 09:35 AM
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Re: A thought about clutch drag

There is a industrial Plastic shop across the road from the BMW motorcycle dealer on Cloverdale. I got a little tube of Devcon for $10 for repairing a gas tank. they had all sorts of epoxies for different applications

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  #76  
Old 08-13-2018, 11:17 AM
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Re: A thought about clutch drag

Quote:
Originally Posted by KafkaKaffe
Call upon a red seal professional welder with experience beyond welding pipilines and dozer blades.

If you can find one of those guys that can weld an aluminum beer can without burning a hole in it, he's your guy. I knew one once. Worked at an aerospace test facility. The machine he was using cost as much as a house, but uncle sam footed the bill. But one must go with the most reasonable solution to the problem at hand.
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Old 08-14-2018, 04:29 AM
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Re: A thought about clutch drag

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Originally Posted by WPV
If you can find one of those guys that can weld an aluminum beer can without burning a hole in it, he's your guy. I knew one once. Worked at an aerospace test facility. The machine he was using cost as much as a house, but uncle sam footed the bill. But one must go with the most reasonable solution to the problem at hand.
My dad was an aerospace engineer, guidance systems. As a kid I remember him on test fights on sub hunters or test shots down near Moab. So much is one off, where the results were not compromised by the costs. A welder that can put a beer can back together, not its purpose, but in mosts minds a clear example that grasps the amazing. Menwhile....can I hit that nail and not my finger?
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Old 08-14-2018, 10:34 AM
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Re: A thought about clutch drag

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My dad was an aerospace engineer, guidance systems. As a kid I remember him on test fights on sub hunters or test shots down near Moab. So much is one off, where the results were not compromised by the costs. A welder that can put a beer can back together, not its purpose, but in mosts minds a clear example that grasps the amazing. Menwhile....can I hit that nail and not my finger?
Im not sure of the psych term ofr it but you are unable to see beyond a redetermined end that you dream of. No way a truly good welder could not weld properly for the task at hand. I know two people who can do the beer can welding. But hey carry on in your endless pursuit of being right while hunting the unicorn
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Old 08-14-2018, 12:07 PM
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Re: A thought about clutch drag

Kafka, with a mindset like that, do you find it hard to put one foot in front of the other? I said right at the beginning my only qualification was curiosity and knowing whatever the outcome, I will have learned much. You neednít read any of what I write.
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Old 08-14-2018, 08:49 PM
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Re: A thought about clutch drag

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Kafka, with a mindset like that, do you find it hard to put one foot in front of the other? I said right at the beginning my only qualification was curiosity and knowing whatever the outcome, I will have learned much. You neednít read any of what I write.
childish defensiveness. Nice way to weasel out of being responsible for the tripe you have written here. You think you can out engineer a horde of corporate engineers? You cant even understand basic newtonian physics! Rely on the hack biker dude to be the ultimate welder. Rely on nonsense and flat earth rationale to arrive at your conclusions.

No wonder your city elected people who hate reality and knock down in lilliputian rage their betters or even the ideas of their betters.
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Old 08-14-2018, 11:50 PM
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Re: A thought about clutch drag

A ways back WPV mentioned that grooving within the friction material might be a better approach. That does seem to be the predominant method of adding oil flow channels. I read a study about an aspect of oil removal from clutch plates. What he looked at - was a grooved plate more effective rotating or stationary in removing oil? Rather than stationary it was about relative speed between two plates. What he found was the most effective oil removal was when the grooved plate was being swept by the faster smooth plate. This study does lend some credibility to grooving the steels. They are the slower rotators. Granted this may well increase the wear of the friction material. But with my limitations, I find the steels easier to work on. I did try a few cuts in the friction material and found it brittle and flakey.
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Old 08-15-2018, 03:34 PM
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Re: A thought about clutch drag

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A ways back WPV mentioned that grooving within the friction material might be a better approach.

And was identified as a matter of pure speculation. When walking in the woods, one should avoid quicksand, Grasshopper. (some of you aren't old enough to recognize the humor here)
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Old 08-16-2018, 03:12 PM
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Re: A thought about clutch drag

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And was identified as a matter of pure speculation. When walking in the woods, one should avoid quicksand, Grasshopper. (some of you aren't old enough to recognize the humor here)
Pure speculationí is without evidence. But speculation does not preclude reason. There is a man out of sight down the street, tell me something about him. You see a man walking towards you, tell me something about him. Where is the ground likely firmer Grasshopper? The uncoupling of reason is welcomed by quicksand.
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Old 08-16-2018, 03:51 PM
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Re: A thought about clutch drag

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarecrow
Pure speculation’ is without evidence. But speculation does not preclude reason. There is a man out of sight down the street, tell me something about him. You see a man walking towards you, tell me something about him. Where is the ground likely firmer Grasshopper? The uncoupling of reason is welcomed by quicksand.

The intent of my comment was to preclude being assumed to be a combatant in this quagmire. For the uneducated, I don't want my comments to be taken as having any position or even deep interest in this attempt to re-engineer the K1300S clutch. Happy now?
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Old 08-16-2018, 07:51 PM
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Scarecrow Scarecrow is offline
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Re: A thought about clutch drag

Quagmireí, Ďcombatantí, childishí, Ďtripe you have writtení, Ď hack bikerí, Ď rely on nonsenseí, Ďflat earth rationalí, Ďcanít understand basic Newtonian physicsí.

You have both made yourselves perfectly clear what you think, thank you. As Woody Allen said; ĎYouíll have to excuse me but Iím due back on the planet earth.í
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