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"K13S/R" Technical Q&A K1200S/R Technical Questions/Answers

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  #61  
Old 05-07-2016, 04:42 AM
Bengarzy Bengarzy is offline
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Re: Upgrading Brake System - K1300S - questions?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jcw
It's hard to think you're riding harder than some of us that track the big bike and routinely brake from 130+mph and for every corner, lap after lap after lap... every 5-10 seconds.

Brakes that become spongy and a lever that comes back to the grip means one thing. water in the system. Period. (Brake fade with a firm lever and decreased braking power is another thing...)

Without water in the system, there would be none of this.


IMO, you are barking up the wrong tree. Bigger/thicker rotors, more aggressive pads don't matter if the heat in the brake fluid causes the water to boil.

Why do you think your system is different and what have you done to remedy it already?
edit- i see you stated your last flush was about a year ago and 8000 miles. Many people, myself included flush the system yearly. There is also the possibility that the one that did it did not do a good job...

This bike is no heavier than a zx-14 or a busa. We are not talking a 600-1000 pound goldwing or harley. It should not experience brake fade with one stop from speed.

15 minutes at Snetterton (UK circuit) had my new Hyabusa brake lever back to the bar, new best grade of fluid too. No water. This can happen on race bikes too. My K on the same circuit was much better than the Suzuki but not like the HP2 which was perfect.
I do wonder if some people just "think" they brake hard at a track day as most stock brakes will get very "soggy" at the lever given a good 20 minute session at that circuit and all with fresh fluid too. There was some silicon fluid around years ago the had a very high boiling point, problem is it's a non lubricant for metals and master cylinders seized, just ask the Jaguar Le Mans team.....
Also don't forget that Kevin Ash flagged up this exact problem on his road test of the K1300, he was also on mountain roads and not a hooligan either.
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  #62  
Old 05-07-2016, 05:09 AM
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Re: Upgrading Brake System - K1300S - questions?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bengarzy
15 minutes at Snetterton (UK circuit) had my new Hyabusa brake lever back to the bar, new best grade of fluid too. No water. This can happen on race bikes too. My K on the same circuit was much better than the Suzuki but not like the HP2 which was perfect.
I do wonder if some people just "think" they brake hard at a track day as most stock brakes will get very "soggy" at the lever given a good 20 minute session at that circuit and all with fresh fluid too. There was some silicon fluid around years ago the had a very high boiling point, problem is it's a non lubricant for metals and master cylinders seized, just ask the Jaguar Le Mans team.....
Also don't forget that Kevin Ash flagged up this exact problem on his road test of the K1300, he was also on mountain roads and not a hooligan either.

Kevin Ash tests (or tested) production bikes that get filled with brake fluid from the factory I presume. Hard to definitively say what condition that brake fluid was in when he received the bike. It might have (or not) absorbed moisture at some point in time. Who knows.

Before I would condemn the system, I'd do my best to make sure the fluid is replaced completely. As you should know, there is a significant drop off in boiling point of brake fluid with time. DOT 4 fluid in particular. Hence the dry and wet boiling points.

Unless his criticism is directed at the overall the quality control at BMW, which seems to be your repeated point of contention.


Regardless of whether or not you think one brakes hard at trackdays, the frequency of and speeds at which you brake from, at least for myself, are simply much more than what I would experience on public roads. This is also evidenced by the fact that you are replacing brake pads and eventually a rotor or two at a much higher rate than on the streets.

The only thing I can think of approaching this on the road is perhaps the prolonged brake applications in mountain ridings. But this is something that we don't have here in the Midwest...
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  #63  
Old 05-07-2016, 05:32 AM
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Re: Upgrading Brake System - K1300S - questions?

BTW, the last track day I attended, I managed to upgrade my K12R brake system to Brembo's 40mm axial monoblocks with AP racing narrow band iron rotors.

http://www.oppracing.com/product_dis...-caliper-left/

These have drilled titanium pistons to help with the heat dissipation.

Overkill? Yeah. I'm not that fast.

Magnesium Magtan wheels, too.

Edit- didn't notice I already posted the pic on this thread. No need to repost...
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  #64  
Old 05-07-2016, 05:54 AM
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Re: Upgrading Brake System - K1300S - questions?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JER K13S
Hey James

The K13S already has the greatest brakes ever . . ., you must have air in the lines.

Oh dear! the brakes on the K are the cooking model calliper and are relatively cheap, they have alluminum pistons and are adequate. They are certainly NOT the greatest brakes ever.
Just try the billet brakes from the same company (Brembo) before a statement like that, different league.
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  #65  
Old 05-07-2016, 06:00 AM
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Re: Upgrading Brake System - K1300S - questions?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jcw
BTW, the last track day I attended, I managed to upgrade my K12R brake system to Brembo's 40mm axial monoblocks with AP racing narrow band iron rotors.

http://www.oppracing.com/product_dis...-caliper-left/

These have drilled titanium pistons to help with the heat dissipation.

Overkill? Yeah. I'm not that fast.



Magnesium Magtan wheels, too.

Hope that adapter bracket is at least 10 MM. thick or the calliper will "wander" under hard braking
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  #66  
Old 05-07-2016, 06:14 AM
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Re: Upgrading Brake System - K1300S - questions?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bengarzy
Hope that adapter bracket is at least 10 MM. thick or the calliper will "wander" under hard braking

Just a little thicker at 0.4". But not by design, but by shear coincidence of offset of the Magtans plus rotor and the stock control fork mounting points.

That's pretty damn thick. How did you come to believe that number is the minimal acceptable thickness?

Proper testing I imagine would require force measurements/calculations, FEA analysis of adapter plate, then actual bench testing.

Admittedly, I did none of those.

Also the alloy used would make a difference, no? I used a 7075 plate that was blanchard ground. The other side mill machined. By me. So not perfection.
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  #67  
Old 05-07-2016, 06:39 AM
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Re: Upgrading Brake System - K1300S - questions?

This guy,
http://www.iup.uni-bremen.de/~schroe...erCalculus.pdf

did the calculations utilizing a motorcycle with a not-too-different mass, albeit a smaller caliper and rotor, at a speed that is less than the BMW maximum.


But, he calculated minimum thickness for a 6082 aluminum adapter plate only 3.79mm.

He eventually chose 10mm for his bracket. But, that is providing an ample safety margin. at least in his case.
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  #68  
Old 05-07-2016, 09:26 AM
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Re: Upgrading Brake System - K1300S - questions?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jcw
Kevin Ash tests (or tested) production bikes that get filled with brake fluid from the factory I presume. Hard to definitively say what condition that brake fluid was in when he received the bike. It might have (or not) absorbed moisture at some point in time. Who knows.

Before I would condemn the system, I'd do my best to make sure the fluid is replaced completely. As you should know, there is a significant drop off in boiling point of brake fluid with time. DOT 4 fluid in particular. Hence the dry and wet boiling points.

Unless his criticism is directed at the overall the quality control at BMW, which seems to be your repeated point of contention.


Regardless of whether or not you think one brakes hard at trackdays, the frequency of and speeds at which you brake from, at least for myself, are simply much more than what I would experience on public roads. This is also evidenced by the fact that you are replacing brake pads and eventually a rotor or two at a much higher rate than on the streets.

The only thing I can think of approaching this on the road is perhaps the prolonged brake applications in mountain ridings. But this is something that we don't have here in the Midwest...
Been doing track days since 92, instructing for part of that so been around a bit.
I think the mountain roads increase brake temps more than track days and the calipers used on the K bikes are not top shelf by any means and with aluminium unvented pistons will pick up heat and transfer it to the fluid if over used, it's heavy and more touring than sports so will suddenly get a soft lever. As previously stated ally pistons will expand and get semi stuck and leave you with the brake rubbing heavily and gently cook the fluid between corners.
Generally speaking they are the right calipers for a bike of this type, give or take but new fluid won't make them better and solve the problem. The bike Kevin tested was brand new.
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  #69  
Old 05-07-2016, 09:40 AM
Bengarzy Bengarzy is offline
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Re: Upgrading Brake System - K1300S - questions?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jcw
Just a little thicker at 0.4". But not by design, but by shear coincidence of offset of the Magtans plus rotor and the stock control fork mounting points.

That's pretty damn thick. How did you come to believe that number is the minimal acceptable thickness?

Proper testing I imagine would require force measurements/calculations, FEA analysis of adapter plate, then actual bench testing.

Admittedly, I did none of those.

Also the alloy used would make a difference, no? I used a 7075 plate that was blanchard ground. The other side mill machined. By me. So not perfection.

From the photo it looks about 4-5mm that's all, no calculations just based on the average bracket thickness on fork bottoms and the fact it's got another pair of bolts too.
The ally is also important from the stiffness so alls well then👍
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  #70  
Old 05-07-2016, 10:38 AM
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Re: Upgrading Brake System - K1300S - questions?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bengarzy
The bike Kevin tested was brand new.

Which unfortunately guarantees nothing about the status of the brake fluid unless he picked it right off the assembly line.

And I would disagree in that new clean high quality dot 4 braking fluid in the current system will satisfy 99% of riders in 99% of riding conditions.
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  #71  
Old 05-07-2016, 06:10 PM
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Re: Upgrading Brake System - K1300S - questions?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jcw
This guy,
http://www.iup.uni-bremen.de/~schroe...erCalculus.pdf

did the calculations utilizing a motorcycle with a not-too-different mass, albeit a smaller caliper and rotor, at a speed that is less than the BMW maximum.


But, he calculated minimum thickness for a 6082 aluminum adapter plate only 3.79mm.

He eventually chose 10mm for his bracket. But, that is providing an ample safety margin. at least in his case.

At 4mm, bolted up tight and no rotor fitted you would be able to flex that set up by hand. It would take the torque load but the calliper would wander side to side in use, you would never see anything that thin professionally made.
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  #72  
Old 05-07-2016, 06:17 PM
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Re: Upgrading Brake System - K1300S - questions?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jcw
Which unfortunately guarantees nothing about the status of the brake fluid unless he picked it right off the assembly line.

And I would disagree in that new clean high quality dot 4 braking fluid in the current system will satisfy 99% of riders in 99% of riding conditions.

I will agree to disagree then and leave you to you weekly fluid change👍😎
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  #73  
Old 05-07-2016, 07:48 PM
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Re: Upgrading Brake System - K1300S - questions?

I do agree with u that these calipers are probably the most cost effective for BMW as they are found on multiple models for a decade.
But having dissected one and seeing the components, they aren't cheap Chinese knock off's either.
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  #74  
Old 05-08-2016, 04:10 PM
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Re: Upgrading Brake System - K1300S - questions?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jaytee
. A bike this powerful picks up a LOT of speed between sharp corners and all of it's not-inconsiderable weight then has to be hauled down before the next 20MPH switchback.

accelerating out of the corners agressively (why else have a K13S???), and sometimes, especially at the end of long straights, braking agressively into very very sharp turns, often down shifting 3 gears just before tip-in.
JT
Ok I don't mean to be Harsh but are you really rushing down steep grades to 20mph hairpins and needing to downshift 3 gears right at tip in, If so, you my friend, are in the wrong gear., that puts you in 4th a gear this bike can hit what 150mph in 4th. if you have short straights and 20mph hairpins at the end you should be pretty dang quick thru them in 2,3 at most, get your revs up higher and try to engine brake.
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  #75  
Old 06-23-2016, 02:56 AM
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Re: Upgrading Brake System - K1300S - questions?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Karlb
Ok I don't mean to be Harsh but are you really rushing down steep grades to 20mph hairpins and needing to downshift 3 gears right at tip in, If so, you my friend, are in the wrong gear., that puts you in 4th a gear this bike can hit what 150mph in 4th. if you have short straights and 20mph hairpins at the end you should be pretty dang quick thru them in 2,3 at most, get your revs up higher and try to engine brake.

Engine braking just like the rear brake is hardly going to take the place of a pair of 320 MM. discs up front now is it....... The OP is cooking the original set up with heavy repeat braking, no amount of "engine braking" will help here. Also if he WAS in top gear coming down 3 would put him in third not fourth..... But he's a quick rider said he wouldn't be in 6th anyway
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  #76  
Old 06-23-2016, 06:51 AM
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Re: Upgrading Brake System - K1300S - questions?

Finally had a good read of this thread, interesting read.
Just to add my 2cents worth, it made me think of the last Australian Rally we did, me and Mogs got separated from the pack a few times, and the pace and number of corners coming back along the Bonang Hwy would IMHO match up to 40minutes flat out on a twisty track. And then there was the 108Km of relentless 35 and 25km/h corners on the road to Mitta Mitta from the Omeo end we did 2 days later. I was riding a K1300R and Mogs a K1200S. Ambient temperature during the entire rally was 36-42 degrees celcius.
We had no problems with our brakes, I don't think anybody did, and some of the other lads would have pushed the envelope too.
I'm not trying to discredit the guys here that have had problems, I'm just assuring others that these stock brakes are outstandingly good for a lot of us.

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  #77  
Old 12-05-2016, 01:53 PM
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Re: Upgrading Brake System - K1300S - questions?

Something I have not seen mentioned is the plastic insulators the K13 has between the brake pads and the caliper. Could be the original poster at some time had these removed which would cause the dramatic difference in fade he is getting compared to the rest of us.
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  #78  
Old 12-05-2016, 02:35 PM
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Re: Upgrading Brake System - K1300S - questions?

What an old thread. Just to pile on, ATE type 200 racing dot 4 brake fluid has a very high boiling point. Even with water contamination the minimum bp is higher than good brands like Castrol's dry boiling point. The added benefit of buying the blue you can tell when you have fresh fluid coming out.
https://www.amazon.com/ATE-706202-Or...ke+fluid+dot+4
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  #79  
Old 12-05-2016, 06:09 PM
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Re: Upgrading Brake System - K1300S - questions?

I put ATE type 200 in my bike along with doing a purge with my GS-911. My brakes have never been so firm and consistent. But here in the USA, thanks to a DOT regulation, the blue stuff is no longer available, it is now amber. DOT specifies that brake fluid can only be clear or amber. Any other color is forbidden for use on the street. ATE had to recall all of the blue product because of that. Technically it could be sold for off road use only, but it would have to be labeled as such. Also, if you get in an accident and have the blue stuff, insurance wasn't cover you even if it was 100% the other guys fault. DOT is way behind the times on a lot of stuff.
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Old 12-06-2016, 06:28 AM
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Re: Upgrading Brake System - K1300S - questions?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DOA
Something I have not seen mentioned is the plastic insulators the K13 has between the brake pads and the caliper. Could be the original poster at some time had these removed which would cause the dramatic difference in fade he is getting compared to the rest of us.

You mean these? They're made of steel that is rubber bonded to the back of the pad. The small taps help keep them in place.
I think they're only there to prevent squeaking brakes.

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Old 01-12-2017, 03:16 PM
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Re: Upgrading Brake System - K1300S - questions?

Yes, those.
I did not handle them all that much, so you are probably right on their composition. In any event they insulate the brake caliper piston from the pads to some extent.

BTW, liking my Lyndall CMC brakes more with every mile.
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Old 01-13-2017, 11:22 AM
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Re: Upgrading Brake System - K1300S - questions?

Semi trucks with hot brakes, as in smoking hot, are boiling the brake shoes, and the material is actually gassing, you can hear it sizzle. Once those brakes shoes have been that hot, and had their chemical composition changed, they will never return to "normal", you might say that they're glazed. There is a compatibility curve between disc material and pad material, and should be matched. My racing days were in the DOT 3 era, DOT 5 was just coming out, and I changed fluid after every other race, calipers and master cylinders disassembled and inspected at least twice a season. Those brakes were directly plumbed, as I think it should be, no ABS, no servo, or other whirlygig for fluid to travel through or around. Brake fade is not a soft lever, but a problem with the pad/rotor interface. A soft lever, after being firm at the beginning of the ride, HAS to either be fluid related, and usually is water contamination, the water turns to steam, and steam can be compressed, and the lever goes soft. Or the other possibility is that the volume of the system is changing, a hose swelling, or a mechanical component, maybe ABS, is somehow physically relating to heat and enlarging the total volume of the system. I have seen calipers that have flexed enough that the system volume is affected. Usually, up to the boiling point of the pad material, brake effect improves with heat. MOTO GP bikes have incorporated air scoops and ducts to control brake temps. I hope this problem has been solved, because I can testify that a high speed ride through the safety boulders is not to be repeated.
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Old 01-13-2017, 12:46 PM
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Re: Upgrading Brake System - K1300S - questions?

Quote:
Originally Posted by henkpenk
You mean these? They're made of steel that is rubber bonded to the back of the pad. The small taps help keep them in place.
I think they're only there to prevent squeaking brakes.

Thanks! I did not notice these when I changed the OE pads to C-L brake pads. I get a slight squeaking as the bike is coming to a complete stop and you start easing up on the brake pressure (no noise at all under any other braking situation). I just looked at my old OE pads (I have not thrown them away yet), and I see that these backing plates are easily removable. I'll check to see if they can be transferred to the C-L pads, and what effect they have, if any, on the squeaking.
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Old 06-28-2017, 05:14 AM
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Re: Upgrading Brake System - K1300S - questions?

Do S1000RR rotors really fit the K1300s?
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Old 06-28-2017, 05:23 AM
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Re: Upgrading Brake System - K1300S - questions?

Do S1000RR rotors really fit the K1300s?
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Old 06-28-2017, 05:57 AM
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Re: Upgrading Brake System - K1300S - questions?

Try this IMHO the best you can get
Endless rf 650 brake fluid

Endless RF650 brake fluid is currently accepted to be one of the very best race brake fluids on the world market. It is specified and used by leading Formula-1, WRC, Dakar, Endurance and Touring Car race teams worldwide. Naturally, for a leading race fluid, the boiling points are very high (Dry: 323 deg C, Wet: 218 deg C) but these figures do not tell the full story. The RF650 fluid exhibits extremely low compressibility, resulting in an unmatched brake pedal feel and feedback. It also offers class leading consistency and lasts longer than competitive race brake fluids - hereby requiring replacement less often than competitive fluids. RF650 is fast becoming recognized as the leading race brake fluid on the market. Don't take our word for it. Try it in your race car and experience the benefits first hand. Recommended for any form of racing including circuit sprint & endurance racing, rally and rally-raid applications. Endless RF650 can be used in any car that specifies Glycol-based DOT 3 or 4 brake fluids in the owners manual (i.e. most production cars sold on the world market over the past 3 decades).
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Old 06-28-2017, 11:24 AM
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Re: Upgrading Brake System - K1300S - questions?

Quote:
Originally Posted by spottedninja
Do S1000RR rotors really fit the K1300s?
Different part numbers.

Either the first brake pad change I tossed them or I just don't have any back up pads on this bike. Never seen them.
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Old 11-24-2017, 10:59 AM
Bengarzy Bengarzy is offline
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Re: Upgrading Brake System - K1300S - questions?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jaytee
Thank you all for the few constructive replies. To address some other replies, I will say the following:

There is less than 8000 miles on the current flush, which was flushed twice in one month to specifically eliminate moisture or air in the line as a possibility. This was done WAY less than a year ago in August. The problem of premature lever fade (to be differentiated from brake-fade, as jcw pointed out) was present before and after each of the flushes, one done by me, one done by the dealer.

No, I do not ride particularly unusual for these canyons. In the last 10 years of bombing these canyons on a regular basis on 6 different bikes I have NEVER had the brake problems that I have on this bike. I have also never had a bike both this heavy and this powerful. For those who regularly run twisties (or track) on this bike without the problem understand also that it is NOT the technical twisties that boil the brakes- it's the sweeper-straight-downhill hairpins that wreck them. These are all over here in our crumbly SoCal mountains and hills. Those who ride them know exactly what Im talking about. A bike this powerful picks up a LOT of speed between sharp corners and all of it's not-inconsiderable weight then has to be hauled down before the next 20MPH switchback.

And I am not riding any more agressively than my usual: like I said, 70% in the corners to have lots of headroom for animals, bikes, rocks in the road on blind turns, accelerating out of the corners agressively (why else have a K13S???), and sometimes, especially at the end of long straights, braking agressively into very very sharp turns, often down shifting 3 gears just before tip-in. You will have to take my word for it that I am not an overly aggressive rider and take my chances, hopefully, in a sane, conservative manner.

Look, I understand most of the physics (if not all the engineering) that goes into this. I am riding a much heavier bike (like 2-up on my other bikes) that generates a LOT more energy (175hp compared to 110hp). Virtually all that inputed energy between corners has to scome out as heat through the brake system. For whatever reason the K13S (and yes, I am saying this happens on ALL K13S that I have experience with in the same conditions) does not handle that heat as well on stock pads and stock calipers and stock fluid and stock rotors as compared with other bikes in the class. I get it.

So (unless someone can disabuse me of my fuzzy comprehension), there are really only two ways to deal with the problem: 1) the whole system has to be able to handle more heat before raising the fluid to boiling temps or 2) the system needs to be able to ablate the heat faster between turns.

The parts of the system are: Rotor (and configuration), Pads (and spacer), Calipers (and pistons), brake lines and fluid. All of these things absorb and give up heat at differeing rates, no? And my symptom of boiling/frothing brake fluid is most likely caused by too much heat for the boiling/frothing point of the particular fluid that is in my system, no?

Soo... despite my trying to head all this off with my initial disclaimer, we are still at my original question:

If I *WANT* to spend the money to upgrade this braking system for the express purposes of handling more heat prior to fluid failure, what exact parts and pieces would be recommended?

In expected cost order:
Fluid - is one 5.1 better than another brand 5.1)?
Pads?
Spacers?
Rotors?
Calipers?

I can find very little information on the K13S where these are concerned and hence the reason for the post.

Anyone else have any direct experience with upgrading the brake system on the K13S?

Thanks again!

JT
The standard brakes are ok up to a point but I have done a lot of laps at Snetterton ( my local track) and do find the brakes to "cook" a bit after about 7 laps.
What I did was to machine notches (castelation) into the edges of all calliper pistons to 1. Cut down the surface area in contact with the brake pad 2. Allow the air to move through the piston hollow body to cool same and keep the heat off the fluid. Works perfect.
Another solution is to plug the pistons (press fit) with solid PTFE and face the PTFE off in the lathe and leave it about .010" proud of the piston edge, this also isolates the fluid from the heat. And before someone says it will melt...... it won't, trust me.
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Old 11-24-2017, 11:10 AM
Bengarzy Bengarzy is offline
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Re: Upgrading Brake System - K1300S - questions?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JER K13S
Hey James

The K13S already has the greatest brakes ever . . ., you must have air in the lines.

Wow..... you haven't ridden much other than a K13S then, they are OK brakes but definitely NOT the best brakes ever😎
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  #90  
Old 11-24-2017, 11:13 AM
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Re: Upgrading Brake System - K1300S - questions?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Massive Lee
Brake fade : comes from pads working beyond their full operating temp range. Change your type of compound. It is possible that brake pads glaze and turn into a mirrolike surface... Remove the pads and rub their face on asphalt in an 8 pattern. Reinstall. Or better. Change them for more appropriate compound.

Spongy brakes :
if running too hot, pads transmit a lot of heat to the brake fuid thru the pistons. Any moisture in the brake fluid will boil and turn into air bubbles. You then get air into the brakelines. Flush all the fluid as it has already absorbed moisture that will turn (again) into vapors on the next session. To help lessen that heat transfer, you can fit stainless steel pistons to your calipers if they have alu pistons at he moment.

As a sidenote. Most hight boiling temp brake fluids usually are more hygroscopic (attract moisture from air) than lesser fluid. Therefore, if you don't often change your brake fluid, using a high performance fluid might not be the best choice.

The "air bubbles" are actually steam from the small amount of water in stale fluid and why the lever comes back to normal when cooled down, i.e. The steam turns back to water.
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Old 11-24-2017, 11:51 AM
Massive Lee Massive Lee is offline
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Re: Upgrading Brake System - K1300S - questions?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bengarzy
The "air bubbles" are actually steam from the small amount of water in stale fluid and why the lever comes back to normal when cooled down, i.e. The steam turns back to water.

Yup. What was said : "as it has already absorbed moisture that will turn (again) into vapors on the next session" ;-)

If possible, find stainless steel pistons to help reduce heat transfer to the brake fluid. Some manufacturers, such as Honda for 30 years now, have fitted the pistons with a ceramic cap to isolate pads' heat from the brake fluid. Per exemple, my 1988 Honda Africa Twin has those. ;-)
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Old 11-25-2017, 12:38 PM
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Re: Upgrading Brake System - K1300S - questions?

We have a long downhill ride here at Mt Hamilton. Fast straights into hairpins. I used to get some brake fade which prompted me looking for better brakes. Read the thread.
http://www.i-bmw.com/showthread.php?...hlight=lyndall

I live in California and ride rain or shine. These brakes are great all the time, no noticeable warm up time, better than stock in the wet. And they are light. Cost me just over $1,000, but the confidence they give is worth it.
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  #93  
Old 11-25-2017, 08:04 PM
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Re: Upgrading Brake System - K1300S - questions?

I'm late to th a lot ofis thread, but I've solved a lot of fluid boiling problems in the past (with BMW cars at high speed driving events) with this:
https://www.castrol.com/en_au/austra...rf-racing.html
Very high wet and dry boiling points and hydroscopic.
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  #94  
Old 11-26-2017, 01:00 AM
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Re: Upgrading Brake System - K1300S - questions?

At over 50$ a liter I suspect it is good. There are other Race Track fluids that are even more expensive. Even Motul has some astronomical priced brake fluid. (I like the F1 reference, I use that to tell people not to use beads for tire balance, they don't do that in F1 cars....)
The one I mentioned (Motul 600) is about 17$ for 500ml. It to has a high boiling point: "Very high boiling point (312 degree centigrade / 594 degree Fahrenheit)". The wet boiling point is 399*F. So this is not bad for street use. And if your still serious about all this, don't let your brake pads get more than 50% worn. The pad helps keep the heat from the puck.
I live in a wet part of the country, Seattle area, I change my brake fluid every year. Even the east coast with it's high humidity, it would be a good ideal to change fluid very regularly.
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Old 11-26-2017, 03:04 PM
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Re: Upgrading Brake System - K1300S - questions?

I have solved lots of "need better brake" problems with three things..

1/ better brake fluid, changed at least yearly.

2/ better brake pads, changed when they get half used.

3/ better braking technique. No dragging brakes. Get on them hard, late. Maximize the time between use for cooling.
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Old 03-23-2018, 05:32 AM
Bengarzy Bengarzy is offline
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Re: Upgrading Brake System - K1300S - questions?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jcw
It's hard to think you're riding harder than some of us that track the big bike and routinely brake from 130+mph and for every corner, lap after lap after lap... every 5-10 seconds.

Brakes that become spongy and a lever that comes back to the grip means one thing. water in the system. Period. (Brake fade with a firm lever and decreased braking power is another thing...)

Without water in the system, there would be none of this.


IMO, you are barking up the wrong tree. Bigger/thicker rotors, more aggressive pads don't matter if the heat in the brake fluid causes the water to boil.

Why do you think your system is different and what have you done to remedy it already?
edit- i see you stated your last flush was about a year ago and 8000 miles. Many people, myself included flush the system yearly. There is also the possibility that the one that did it did not do a good job...

This bike is no heavier than a zx-14 or a busa. We are not talking a 600-1000 pound goldwing or harley. It should not experience brake fade with one stop from speed.


I had a Hyabusa before the K, it would only do a few laps before the brakes were shot, fluid and pad change only made a little difference, the thing was a new K1300S did even less laps than the Busa no matter what.
The cure is to mill notches into the edge of the calliper pistons to A decrease the contact area with the red hot pad and B it vents the red hot air that is normally trapped in the hollow piston.
Problem solved
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Old 03-24-2018, 05:11 AM
Massive Lee Massive Lee is offline
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Re: Upgrading Brake System - K1300S - questions?

I suggest finding suitable stainless steel pistons to reduce heat transfer to the brake fluid. or two-piece pistons with a ceramic pad.
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Old 03-24-2018, 02:46 PM
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Re: Upgrading Brake System - K1300S - questions?

There are companies that ceramic coat the face of pistons for race engines. I don't see why they couldn't coat the face of a brake caliper piston. There is a coating material applied by spraying called Lizard Skin that is used on panels near exhaust. Maybe spray the back side of the pad? Just throwing stuff out there.
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Old 03-24-2018, 02:59 PM
Bengarzy Bengarzy is offline
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Re: Upgrading Brake System - K1300S - questions?

Quote:
Originally Posted by WPV
There are companies that ceramic coat the face of pistons for race engines. I don't see why they couldn't coat the face of a brake caliper piston. There is a coating material applied by spraying called Lizard Skin that is used on panels near exhaust. Maybe spray the back side of the pad? Just throwing stuff out there.


That ceramic piston coating you speak of is only microns thick and looks a bit like dull chrome, itís to stop the detonation pitting the piston crown that will eventually mean a failure.
A set of vented (notches round the edge of the piston in contact with the pad) pistons work well, but as suggested elsewhere, a set of stainless pistons vented would be perfect.
What I will say is that the bike is being ridden very hard to run into these heat generated problems and most wonít have a problem at all.
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Old 03-24-2018, 04:06 PM
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Re: Upgrading Brake System - K1300S - questions?

I have found a Porsche recommendation that if your doing track stuff and having heat problems, change pads if warn to the half way mark. Helps with heat conductance problems too. But as mentioned. Tracking a K1300S is not an every day event. Tricky enough going over Sonora or Ebbetts Pass in California.
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  #101  
Old 03-24-2018, 05:42 PM
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Re: Upgrading Brake System - K1300S - questions?

These guys would disagree with you.

https://youtu.be/EltBJl74fNk

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bengarzy
I had a Hyabusa before the K, it would only do a few laps before the brakes were shot, fluid and pad change only made a little difference, the thing was a new K1300S did even less laps than the Busa no matter what.
The cure is to mill notches into the edge of the calliper pistons to A decrease the contact area with the red hot pad and B it vents the red hot air that is normally trapped in the hollow piston.
Problem solved
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Old 03-24-2018, 06:07 PM
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Re: Upgrading Brake System - K1300S - questions?

The way to settle this is to ask the experts...

Anyone with contacts to San Jose BMW? They ran a powercup K1200R. Nate Kerns and Brian Parriott.
Not just that rare bird but the same braking calipers were used on a bunch of BMW's including the R1200 bikes.

I'm pretty sure I recall Parriott racing the R1200S in MotoST against other twin cylinders like Ducati's, Aprilia, and Suzuki's.

I do not recall these types of incompetency complaints, then.
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Old 03-25-2018, 02:09 PM
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Re: Upgrading Brake System - K1300S - questions?

I'll bet the answer can be found in the pits at Barber in October. See you there.
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Old 03-27-2018, 11:07 PM
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Re: Upgrading Brake System - K1300S - questions?

It costs a few bucks, but Lyndall made me a set of carbon rotors and pads. Noticeably lighter discs and so far never any fade on my worst case scenario - coming down Mt Hamilton at speed on the San Jose side. Absolute confidence in your brakes is mandatory. I am not fast enough on the track to fade the stock brakes with the pistons cut. But Mt Hamilton can fade them, long downhill run.

http://www.i-bmw.com/showthread.php?...hlight=lyndall
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