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"KRS/GT" Technical Q&A K1200RS/GT Technical Questions/Answers

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  #1  
Old 02-04-2008, 06:23 PM
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Battery Tender Plus for Exide Gel

These batteries have a Gel sticker on the front. The serial code, if you can find it, ends with the number 6 as opposed to 8 on the standard BT Plus. The charges look exactly the same otherwise.

From the president of BT:

""I will try to end the confusion about the new BMW Gel battery Battery
Tender.
The BMW Gel Battery Tender is in fact different than the normal Battery
Tender Plus. Although the Deltran Battery Tender Plus and the BMW Battery
Tender appear the same they are quite different. Approximately one year ago
BMW contacted us concerning their new Gel battery that is manufactured by
Exide battery in Germany. We were instructed to redesign the charge
algorithm to comply specifically with the new Exide Gel battery. Exide
recommended very specific changes to the charge curve, one being a timed
sequence during the absorption period. Please keep in mind that our
engineering staff has been designing charge curves for over fourteen years
and prior to this design request had never seen anything quite like the new
Exide Gel.
As the old saying goes, "the customer always knows best," we can only do
as requested. If BWM/Exide says charge it to their instructions and the
battery will last through the warranty period who are we to argue. If it is
any consolation, we have found it to be a very good battery and should give
you many years of service.
We do claim per our packaging that we correctly charge gel batteries,
prior to seeing the Exide battery that statement was true, we are now
changing our packaging to indicate otherwise. Due to the new battery design,
and to comply with the BMW warranty, the customer must purchase a "Gel
Specific" battery charger.
After all these years in the charger business we are still amazed how
every manufacture try's to re-invent the battery. We realize that with all
the different batteries in the market place the customer becomes very
confused and is usually forced to spend more money. Approximately three
years ago Harley-Davidson changed their battery design and manufacturer, it
proved to be a very wise decision and we can only hope it works out best for
BMW, and most importantly, you the customer."


Sorry for the Confusion,

Mike Prelec

President,
Deltran Corp. ""
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  #2  
Old 02-04-2008, 07:00 PM
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Re: Battery Tender Plus for Exide Gel

so are you saying

1-that no one can use a yuasa wet battery

2-or another type maintenance battery of which there are at least 3 other types

3-or that the charging system in thhe bmw motorcycles
can tell the difference & adjust

4- no of the above
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  #3  
Old 02-04-2008, 07:16 PM
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Re: Battery Tender Plus for Exide Gel

Red Tail,

NO, he didn't say any of those things.

There are many charging curves that are available on various types of batteries. Using the wrong curve may or may not damage the battery or reduce its life. The curves involve maximum charging voltages and current along with cycled charge times. Some charges are "smarter" than others and involve more sophisticated curves.

To answer your other remark, YES, BMW has modified its charging cycles via the ECU and CANBUS logic (at least in their cars....I am assuming that they have also done this in the bikes). Alternators and voltage regulators are not (and haven't been for a long time) a simple ON/OFF, full charge or nothing on most modern vehicles. BMWs are optimized for the specific OEM battery type.

So, why will another type work as long as it is the same voltage? The typical wet cell is very forgiving and will work as a replacement in almost any application. Same for the AGM types. GEL Batteries are indeed different and need special handling if you want to get maximum performance and life.

Read some tutorials on the different battery types and you will understand.
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  #4  
Old 02-04-2008, 07:18 PM
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Re: Battery Tender Plus for Exide Gel

have read done extensive reading

thats why im asking extensive questions

great deflection .....
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  #5  
Old 02-04-2008, 07:28 PM
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Re: Battery Tender Plus for Exide Gel

Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Tail
have read done extensive reading

thats why im asking extensive questions

great deflection .....

Not a deflection...even Deltran admits that there are different charging curves for GEL batteries. Are you insinuating that you know more than them?

...and, NO, your quesitons are not extensive. They are rather simplistic.
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  #6  
Old 02-04-2008, 07:37 PM
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Re: Battery Tender Plus for Exide Gel

Quote:
Originally Posted by HTheater
Not a deflection...even Deltran admits that there are different charging curves for GEL batteries. Are you insinuating that you know more than them?

...and, NO, your quesitons are not extensive. They are rather simplistic.

believe what you like

never said they dod not have different curves
never said i knew more than them

this i do know

the Arbiter is the Charging System on the BIKE !!!
IT HAS TO BE !!!
or if the sytem on the bike is GENERIC.......
then it couldnt possibly matter

or maybe it should state....."GEL BATTERIES ONLY"
or a caveat....use wet or other batteries at your own risk

or as ive question [you have a hard time answering a straight question]
then does the bikes charging system adjust for the three(3)
totally different.........prevalent ........available batteries

cant be but 1 answer
or someone is fartn in a hurricane of obfuscation !!

if the answer is no for 2 out of the three
then an owner should be informed !!!
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  #7  
Old 02-04-2008, 07:40 PM
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Re: Battery Tender Plus for Exide Gel

Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Tail
believe what you like

This is not what I believe....it is simple engineering.

Also, we have two threads going on at the same time.

I DID answer your question in the other thread. I thought you were smart enough to tie the two together....my mistake.

Here it is for you:

An obvious question with an obvious answer IF you understand the different battery types and their charging curves.

You are tyring to make this more complicated than it is and changing the subject.

The subject is using a charger that is not designed for a GEL Battery. Is it the right device to use on a GEL? The simple answer is NO! Using a proper charger will give you better performance and longer life. Period. No arguments, no discussion needed.

Now, if you want an answer to your new subject -

Your KRS is stupid (as are most pre CANBUS vehicles) and it doesn't know the difference between the different battery types, however, they can still be optimized for a certain type via the alternator and regulator. Wet cell (any brand...Yuasa isn't the only brand) and AGM are just more tolerant to alternate charging curves than the GEL Batteries. THAT is why you can use them in the KRS.

So, why did BMW change to the GEL batteries? A very good question that they can only answer. My best guess is for safety as the GEL batteries are far safer in a tip-over, fall, etc. than wet cells.

AGM types are far superior and are fast replacing the standard GEL batteries. The only disadvantage they have is cost.
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  #8  
Old 02-04-2008, 07:44 PM
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Re: Battery Tender Plus for Exide Gel

not the answer......

its only complicated by your

the questions are straight & simple

i did not know an RS was....or could be stupid
glad you let me know

the canbus is not a cure all
but i assume from your answer the canbus compensate for all 3 types of batteries

thats on your word & no one else

so you presume to know more than.....
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  #9  
Old 02-04-2008, 08:02 PM
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Re: Battery Tender Plus for Exide Gel

One more attempt to reason with someone who obviously either skims the posts or has a comprehension problem. Maybe it is just complicated by your lack of complete sentences and proper grammar; I am not sure.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Tail
not the answer......

its only complicated by your

What is not the answer? Can you finish the sentence/thought?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Tail
the questions are straight & simple

Yes, they are simple, and I stated that, PLUS I answered why you can use any type of battery in the KRS along with an answer to the original post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Tail
i did not know an RS was....or could be stupid
glad you let me know

You are welcome!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Tail
the canbus is not a cure all
but i assume from your answer the canbus compensate for all 3 types of batteries

I never said that the CANBUS was a cure all; in fact, there are many added complexities that I don't think we really need, but I don't manufacture them so I am at their mercy.

As far as it compensating for all 3 types, yes, their cars do; I am not sure about the bikes and stated so (you must read BOTH threads for complete answers). However, it doesn't matter if the charging system compensates or not. IF it is optimized for the less tolerant GEL type, that is all you need to be able to use all 3 types since the other two are less susceptible to performance or life issues if charged on the GEL curve.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Tail
thats on your word & no one else

so you presume to know more than.....

Yes, I presume to know more than others on the subject since I am a EE and had to learn about a multitude of battery types when I worked with HP, including wet cells and GELs. AGM types became available after that, but I have read a lot about them and feel I am more qualified than most to carry on this discussion.
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  #10  
Old 02-04-2008, 08:56 PM
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Re: Battery Tender Plus for Exide Gel

i too am a certified low voltage tech
worked decades for a companyt century larger than HP
batterierie were supplied that were "Guaranteed".....not warrantied for 40 years

thats why my questions have not been answered

you see they are questions.......not propaganda
i DONT Presume to know more than anyone else........ya got me on that
but i will let u have it

my thrust is.....
the bike does not adjust.....
then that leaves someone.....some battery.....in deficit

if i unplug a perfectly good battery.....at the right charge
in nov[usually thanksgiving].....put it on charge..... the proper charger
proceed to put it back in the bike in march

5months off...7months on
yet if the bike doesnt adjust.......or ive bought the "wrong"
battery
then for seven(7) months IM MUCKING UP A GOOD BATTERY
that cant be possibly resurrected in the other 5months
thats when its really getting a break.......IT AINT IN THE BIKE getting mucked up !!

now if you want to split hairs
deltran has the best gel charger
someone a better wet charger
& someone altogether different has the best acm charger

my only retort is
I DONT RIDE bench rechargers

i dont hook electrodes up to vital parts to get a THRILL
while the finger is up the mouses butt

its a real world question.....you dont have the answer
regurgitating fodder printed by the marketing dept
or assuming that if the cars have switch..... the bikes cant be far behind

well the bikes are.......

if we are to use only gels.....acms
then we should be told specifically

if a previous gen bmw bike wont support the newer batteries

we should be told

that would be ez....

either would be a better answer than u have given
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  #11  
Old 02-04-2008, 09:22 PM
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Re: Battery Tender Plus for Exide Gel

Let me say this sloooowwwwwllllly:

Quote:
Originally Posted by HTheater
However, it doesn't matter if the charging system compensates or not. IF it is optimized for the less tolerant GEL type, that is all you need to be able to use all 3 types since the other two are less susceptible to performance or life issues if charged on the GEL curve.

What part do you not comprehend? You question is answered above. Reread until you understand. No intelligence is required by the bike or you.

To take it a step further, does that mean that if you put a WET CELL on a GEL CELL charge curve that the WET CELL is going to be charged in the most ideal way? NO! It means that it charges it in an acceptable way, such that you probably won't know the difference w/o a lot of side-by-side, controlled tests. Not propaganda, engineering facts.

Your contention is that a charging system is a charging system and THAT is where you are dead wrong.

Your contention is that if your bike seems to start up fine on any kind of battery and makes it through the season, then there is marketing hype stating that there are difference. More BS!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Tail
my only retort is
I DONT RIDE bench rechargers

You are correct, you ride a bike that has been designed for a particular battery type. Using another means you will have less than optimum results. You have no choice in the bike's charging system design. It is what it is.

If you were given a choice to use a charger made for your battery type or a charger made for one you don't have, would you?

Now, if you already had a charger and the manufacturer specifically said not to use it on your particular battery type, would you?

THAT is what this thread is about, and, the only correct answer is that you shouldn't as it is not the best thing for it.

Now, if YOU want to believe that it is a marketing hype that ALL battery companies, ALL battery charging companies and many vehicle manufacturers have gotten together and created, so be it. To each his own. I will bet you slip in a tin foil room too!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Tail
i dont hook electrodes up to vital parts to get a THRILL
while the finger is up the mouses butt

Maybe you should give it a try....it might open your eyes or your mind.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Tail
now if you want to split hairs
deltran has the best gel charger

Deltran the best GEL charger?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Tail
well the bikes are.......

if we are to use only gels.....acms
then we should be told specifically

if a previous gen bmw bike wont support the newer batteries

we should be told

that would be ez....

either would be a better answer than u have given

I would NEVER recommend a GEL battery to anyone. AGM batteries are far superior in every way I can think of other than price.

My answer is the only correct one - EITHER use what the manufacture specifies OR use an AGM.
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  #12  
Old 02-04-2008, 09:31 PM
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Re: Battery Tender Plus for Exide Gel

Quote:
Originally Posted by HTheater
Let me say this sloooowwwwwllllly:



What part do you not comprehend? You question is answered above. Reread until you understand. No intelligence is required by the bike or you.

To take it a step further, does that mean that if you put a WET CELL on a GEL CELL charge curve that the WET CELL is going to be charged in the most ideal way? NO! It means that it charges it in an acceptable way, such that you probably won't know the difference w/o a lot of side-by-side, controlled tests. Not propaganda, engineering facts.

Your contention is that a charging system is a charging system and THAT is where you are dead wrong.

Your contention is that if your bike seems to start up fine on any kind of battery and makes it through the season, then there is marketing hype stating that there are difference. More BS!



If you were given a choice to use a charger made for your battery type or a charger made for one you don't have, would you?

Now, if you already had a charger and the manufacturer specifically said not to use it on your particular battery type, would you?

THAT is what this thread is about, and, the only correct answer is that you shouldn't as it is not the best thing for it.

Now, if YOU want to believe that it is a marketing hype that ALL battery companies, ALL battery charging companies and many vehicle manufacturers have gotten together and created, so be it. To each his own. I will bet you slip in a tin foil room too!



Maybe you should give it a try....it might open your eyes or your mind.



Deltran the best GEL charger?




I would NEVER recommend a GEL battery to anyone. AGM batteries are far superior in every way I can think of other than price.

My answer is the only correct one - EITHER use what the manufacture specifies OR use an AGM.

you are so lost in you own morASS !!

but then we know
"you know more than anyone else...."

& im glad you told us you do.......................

so........which battery should we buy
that will last the longest
crank the most
take the most charges

yet i know you dont have the answer
i also know you dont know which battery charger curve
best mimics your bike
or my "Stupid" rs .... i got the inference

you see thats really the question........& you still dont have answers

refer any deltran techs or bmw fodder spreaders to me
they are valid unanswered questions
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  #13  
Old 02-04-2008, 09:39 PM
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Re: Battery Tender Plus for Exide Gel

Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Tail
you are so lost in you own morASS !!

but then we know
"you know more than anyone else...."

& im glad you told us you do.......................

I am not sure what "you own morASS" means, so I will leave it alone.

I never said I knew more than anyone else....just more than most on THIS subject and that I feel I am qualified to discuss it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Tail
so........which battery should we buy
that will last the longest
crank the most
take the most charges

I already told you, but, yet again you show your lack of comprehension.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Tail
yet i know you dont have the answer
i also know you dont know which battery charger curve
best mimics your bike
or my "Stupid" rs .... i got the inference

you see thats really the question........& you still dont have answers

refer any deltran techs or bmw fodder spreaders to me
they are valid unanswered questions

What makes you think that the best battery charger is the one the "mimics" your KRS (or any bike)??

Are you trying to say that a vehicle does everything better simply because it is what you ride/drive and that bench tools can't be more accurate because you don't ride them so they aren't the "real world"?

What an idiot....excuse me, a "certified" idiot!
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  #14  
Old 02-05-2008, 01:52 AM
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Re: Battery Tender Plus for Exide Gel

Hey after the massive verbal jousting I got a little lost so here goes. I will ask once never to ask again. Will my. "Deltran super smart battery tender plus", hurt my BMW stock battery in my 05 KS?? Not so worried that it is not as effective as the one they built for bmw. I just want to know if I am better off leaving it off the battery when I have to go to the sand box for 3 months. So will it hurt my battery to have that charger on it for 3 months????
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Old 02-05-2008, 12:29 PM
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Exclamation Correction!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by BMW
These batteries have a Gel sticker on the front. The serial code, if you can find it, ends with the number 6 as opposed to 8 on the standard BT Plus. The charges look exactly the same otherwise.

This should read "These Battery Tenders have a Gel sticker on the front."

This sticker is the only way to tell if it safe/optimal for the BMW Exide gel battery. While the serial numbers are different, I have not been able to find a serial number on the 2 BT Plus charges I currently have.


Also,

Some have suggested that the canbus issue can be avoided by hooking up directly to the battery poles with the charger. Still, Deltran/BMW suggest use the BT Plus Gel charger for this purpose as it optimizes the Exide gel battery life and decreases the risk of ruining the battery.

Also,

The standard BT Plus will charge other types of gel batteries. It is just not optimal for the BMW/Exide Gel battery.

And Also,

Have read one thread elsewhere where the charger was used with a cover on the motorcycle. The Deltran warning information indicates that you should never do this. The battery needs to be well ventilated when charging.
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Old 02-05-2008, 05:56 PM
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Re: Battery Tender Plus for Exide Gel

Quote:
Originally Posted by HTheater
I am not sure what "you own morASS" means, so I will leave it alone.

I never said I knew more than anyone else....just more than most on THIS subject and that I feel I am qualified to discuss it.



I already told you, but, yet again you show your lack of comprehension.



What makes you think that the best battery charger is the one the "mimics" your KRS (or any bike)??

Are you trying to say that a vehicle does everything better simply because it is what you ride/drive and that bench tools can't be more accurate because you don't ride them so they aren't the "real world"?

What an idiot....excuse me, a "certified" idiot!

aint you the man.....calling names

this meglomania thing you do.........so becoming

what i did say in specifics is........

you can have battery specific charger
1 foe each type
yet the arbiter is ..........that same batteryusing the bikes
charging system is no better.....or worse off

you could charge with NASA space grade equiptment
yet hooked to a "Stupid" RS with the run of the mill
standar....generic .....12volt charging system...
[the Rs has one of the largest of any moto]
if it is not up to that level
the performance of the battery can be NO better
than the weakest component

or as ive stated b4
we the public/buyer should be advsd our bikes are battery specific

or the charging systems on our bikes are battery specific
or its simply marketing

however big that vein in your forehead swells

however the amount spittle produced while you type

however much vile language you use

you cant defy logic
yet you know more than anyone else.........................









so sad
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Old 02-05-2008, 07:17 PM
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Re: Battery Tender Plus for Exide Gel

Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Tail
aint you the man.....calling names

this meglomania thing you do.........so becoming

I called you an idiot for failing to comprehend. You started the name calling and I simply stooped to your level, although an idiot is far more civil than the ASS you called me.

I also have stated that you fail to understand the entire point of this thread and have taken a tangent that is causing confusion to others.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Tail
what i did say in specifics is........

you can have battery specific charger
1 foe each type
yet the arbiter is ..........that same batteryusing the bikes
charging system is no better.....or worse off

you could charge with NASA space grade equiptment
yet hooked to a "Stupid" RS with the run of the mill
standar....generic .....12volt charging system...
[the Rs has one of the largest of any moto]
if it is not up to that level
the performance of the battery can be NO better
than the weakest component

or as ive stated b4
we the public/buyer should be advsd our bikes are battery specific

or the charging systems on our bikes are battery specific
or its simply marketing

My point is that the BMW system is most likely NOT generic charging systems since their cars aren't. I also stated that the newer bikes are probably much more sophisticated than the older models when it comes to proper charging.

IF and manufacturer designs their charging with a battery specific charging curve via the alternator and regulator (how/when they run and shut off the charging, etc.) of even a more generic system like the KRS, THEN you are optimizing for a specific type (how many times/ways do I have to state this for you to understand it?). I have faith (maybe false) that, when they changed to the GEL batteries that they changed their charging system.

If they didn't, then they are not getting the maximum performance or life out of their chosen, factory installed battery and they are doing a dis-service to their owners.

If they are and the owner chooses to put in another battery type, then they are taking their own chances.

In the case of putting a GEL in place of a WET or AGM, they WILL damage the battery while it is in the bike and you WILL get less than optimal performance and life from it.

In the case of putting a WET or AGM in place of a GEL, then they probably won't notice the performance loss or lower life simply because these battery types are more forgiving.

No marketing hype; just design facts.

EVEN IF the BMW engineers are dumber than I think and used a GEL battery on a convention charging system, the original point of this thread was discussing the proper charger for the GEL battery. You finally have accepted the fact that some chargers are better than others and that they can and are designed for specific battery types.

We agree that a manufacturer should let the owner know the battery type to use. BMW DOES specify the battery type in my KS manual; I gave away my KRS manual with the bike, so I can't check and see if it states what type of battery to use.

Now, they don't specifically state to not use any other type. Is that what you are looking for? Are you the type that needs to be told that the coffee is hot and it might burn your leg if you spill it on you?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Tail
however big that vein in your forehead swells

however the amount spittle produced while you type

however much vile language you use

you cant defy logic
yet you know more than anyone else.........................

so sad

I am not sure that calling someone and "idiot" who doesn't understand something even though it has been explained time after time is vile language in anyone's book. I have also commented on your poor spelling, punctuation and grammar. I think you are simply trying to stir the pot because you are who you are.

I also hate to disappoint, but I don't get riled that easy so you won't cause any stress in my life. No popping veins and no raised blood pressure. I just consider the source and only try to post to make sure others reading don't get confused by your dribble.

You are one member here that I couldn't care less for as you often don't add any value to our community....then there are times you almost seem human. You also have displayed knowledge in many areas at times; you are either just out of your expertise here or just trying to be a PITA.

I am done trying to educate someone who seems to not want to learn.
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Old 02-05-2008, 07:36 PM
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Re: Battery Tender Plus for Exide Gel

Quote:
Originally Posted by ruff ride
Hey after the massive verbal jousting I got a little lost so here goes. I will ask once never to ask again. Will my. "Deltran super smart battery tender plus", hurt my BMW stock battery in my 05 KS?? Not so worried that it is not as effective as the one they built for bmw. I just want to know if I am better off leaving it off the battery when I have to go to the sand box for 3 months. So will it hurt my battery to have that charger on it for 3 months????

If your '05 KS has a GEL battery in it and your charger does not have a GEL charging curve in it, then, YES, you will not experience the performance or life that a battery placed on a proper charger would.

If getting the proper charger is not in the cards, then I would personally not leave a GEL battery on the wrong charger as it will overcharge and damage the battery. I would remove the battery from the bike after running the bike for a while with minimal loads (no high beams, accessories, heated clothing, etc.). You can use a meter or battery checker to make sure that it is fully charged.

Leave it in a cool, but not freezing location. Check it once a month. As long as it stays above 50%, do nothing. If it drops below 50%, you should recharge it. Using a Battery Tender or similar that doesn't have the proper charging voltage is what damages it, but leaving it near dead is not good for it either, so, it is the worst of two evils.

If you are interested, this link has a fairly decent tutorial on the different battery types complete with the proper charging and absorption voltages. There are literally hundreds of sites out there that all say the same thing; this one is just a simple overview and doesn't have any technical errors that I saw.

If you would like my opinion on the better chargers, PM me and I will be glad to give you some sites. Deltran Battery Tenders are very popular (even sold on the above site), but, if you were to open one up and see what was inside, you would see that they are not really that sophisticated and are not worth their price. They get a premimum based on their name.
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  #19  
Old 02-05-2008, 08:16 PM
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Re: Battery Tender Plus for Exide Gel

Quote:
Originally Posted by HTheater
I called you an idiot for failing to comprehend. You started the name calling and I simply stooped to your level, although an idiot is far more civil than the ASS you called me.

I also have stated that you fail to understand the entire point of this thread and have taken a tangent that is causing confusion to others.



My point is that the BMW system is most likely NOT generic charging systems since their cars aren't. I also stated that the newer bikes are probably much more sophisticated than the older models when it comes to proper charging.

IF and manufacturer designs their charging with a battery specific charging curve via the alternator and regulator (how/when they run and shut off the charging, etc.) of even a more generic system like the KRS, THEN you are optimizing for a specific type (how many times/ways do I have to state this for you to understand it?). I have faith (maybe false) that, when they changed to the GEL batteries that they changed their charging system.

If they didn't, then they are not getting the maximum performance or life out of their chosen, factory installed battery and they are doing a dis-service to their owners.

If they are and the owner chooses to put in another battery type, then they are taking their own chances.

In the case of putting a GEL in place of a WET or AGM, they WILL damage the battery while it is in the bike and you WILL get less than optimal performance and life from it.

In the case of putting a WET or AGM in place of a GEL, then they probably won't notice the performance loss or lower life simply because these battery types are more forgiving.

No marketing hype; just design facts.

EVEN IF the BMW engineers are dumber than I think and used a GEL battery on a convention charging system, the original point of this thread was discussing the proper charger for the GEL battery. You finally have accepted the fact that some chargers are better than others and that they can and are designed for specific battery types.

We agree that a manufacturer should let the owner know the battery type to use. BMW DOES specify the battery type in my KS manual; I gave away my KRS manual with the bike, so I can't check and see if it states what type of battery to use.

Now, they don't specifically state to not use any other type. Is that what you are looking for? Are you the type that needs to be told that the coffee is hot and it might burn your leg if you spill it on you?



I am not sure that calling someone and "idiot" who doesn't understand something even though it has been explained time after time is vile language in anyone's book. I have also commented on your poor spelling, punctuation and grammar. I think you are simply trying to stir the pot because you are who you are.

I also hate to disappoint, but I don't get riled that easy so you won't cause any stress in my life. No popping veins and no raised blood pressure. I just consider the source and only try to post to make sure others reading don't get confused by your dribble.

You are one member here that I couldn't care less for as you often don't add any value to our community....then there are times you almost seem human. You also have displayed knowledge in many areas at times; you are either just out of your expertise here or just trying to be a PITA.

I am done trying to educate someone who seems to not want to learn.

no one called you a ass

i you didnt cut and paste a comment .....out of context
show me where i called you an ass......didnt happen

you didnt have to stooop to any ones level

your psuedo personality allows you to do that anytime

"comprehend"......to you means that not only that i have to see things
your way.....

everyone else has to see it your way tooooo

on several points you are in error..........
on a technical basis

you can have the worlds best battery
charged by the worlds best system
lets just say that is exceptional or extraordinary...........110

apply that to an average system....same battery..........50

the exceptional/extraordinary is diminished greatly
the average is NOT enhanced

when you speak wordy rationales you can get many to believe
or influence them that there is an improvement
or that the lesser is enhanced......impossible

& you are tryin to impress that you are knowledgable
educated...........NOT

i know you are tryin to save face
yet to cant defy logic....
putting a label on a charger & then placing it in
your standard & service environment

IS NOT AN IMPROVENT
PROVIDES NO ADVANTAGES..................on merit

on the bench in deltrans lab....it does
in your mind it does
in my RS..........not at all
& you can provide no definitive technical text
that says it does
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Old 02-05-2008, 09:03 PM
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Re: Battery Tender Plus for Exide Gel

Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Tail
no one called you a ass

i you didnt cut and paste a comment .....out of context
show me where i called you an ass......didnt happen

OK, did you simply misspell yet another word? >>>

Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Tail
you are so lost in you own morASS !!



Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Tail
& you are tryin to impress that you are knowledgable
educated...........NOT

I will match wits with you anytime. IQ tests? Another place you will lose. Get over it.

You still don't understand basic principles because you are stuck on the fact that your KRS has a generic charging system and can't see any "logic" beyond that.

I have stated since the beginning that the KRS may not have anything customized for GEL CELLS, but I had faith in BMW engineers to at least understand the correct charging voltage and limit it for the GEL CELL that THEY chose to put in the bike. If they don't then shame on them.....the customer is not getting the proper life out of their battery.

I have also stated that I would expect that the newer KS with the CANBUS monitored the battery in a much more sophisticated way and that it most likely had a system that could alter the charging voltage based on the batteries characteristics. Their cars do. $100 chargers do.

But, NONE OF THAT MATTERS to this thread or the other one you also have hijacked. This thread was simply an informative thread provided by a member that copied a letter from the President of Deltran stating that their Battery Tenders are not compatible with the Excide GEL Batteries that are standard equipment in newer BMWs. The other thread asked if a Battery Tenders was the correct charger to use with a GEL battery.

Your "logic" is that since the KRS has a generic charging system, it is the weak link, so who cares. You keep repeating that it is the arbiter and the charger used won't matter. That is pure ignorance as the proper charger WILL help the performance and extend the life of any battery and the wrong charger WILL not allow the battery to charge to its maximum capacity and will have a shorter life.

I will try once again to explain things to you in as simple of terms as I can, but we must first establish a few "givens" or we have no place to go:

Let's start with the basics here.

1) Do you agree that the three different battery types commonly used in automotive applications have different ideal charging voltages and current?

If you don't, will you believe it if I provide technical websites that state that they do or do you feel this is also part of the great marketing hype? If you do, then there is no further discussion needed.

If you do accept that there are different charging voltages and current requirements, we can move to the next step.

2) Do you acknowledge that a typical automotive charging system consists of an alternator and a voltage regulator?

If so, why is so difficult in understanding that even a simple charging system can be set to regulate the voltage at different voltages than another charging system?

THAT is all that is required to keep from damaging a GEL CELL battery (shortening its life). To get maximum performance requires a little more sophistication.


********************************

For the record, a "simple" charging system like the KRS has I referred to as both a "dumb" or "stupid" charging system....by that I mean it has no feedback or the capability of responding to the said feedback; it simply regulates the amount of voltage being output from the alternator...it HAS to do this as ALL of them do. Now, the KRS MAY have a little more sophistication in that it MAY only allow charging at certain RPMs like most automobiles have done since the 1970s; but it MAY not, I haven't studied it. I am sorry that you took this as an insult and can't get over this either.

The KS definitely has more intelligence. It knows if I plug in a BMW charger or not. It also actively monitors the charging process along with the current draw on all circuits and can actively disable and re-enable those circuits. It MAY also provide feedback on the charging and alter the amount of current being sent to the battery (their cars do) and it MAY also pulse charge (their cars do), but, once again, I haven't looked into them.
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  #21  
Old 02-06-2008, 05:24 PM
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Re: Battery Tender Plus for Exide Gel

gel cells have their own inherent disadvantages
wets no less have disadvantages
AGM's....join the club

what i stated initally is true.......to the fullest extent
that it cant possibly matter if the bmw charging system
does not adjust or compensate

that it was a matter of "marketing"
***** the very !st thing noted in Deltrans ad is............

"fact: a battery can not sulfate if it is connected to a battery tender Charger!"
[a direct quote !!!]

i could make the same statement it wont sulfate if
it were connected to the orbiting space station

riding around on a bmw is the bottom line !!!!!!

in fact recently there was an incidence that someone bought
a new battery.....left it hooked up to a batt tender.....for some reason
didnt go riding for 11 years
battery was still go............

should it go eventally into any bike ??????
is used properly that a normal bike would be subjected to
crankin/start cycles.......long & short hops
what does it prove that it lasted 11 years........unused
absolutely nothing!!!!!

as soon as you hit the starter.....a major AMP/current draw occurs
you are at the mercy of the motorcycle charging system
to recoup
gels recoup differntly than wets or AGM's
that can be said of all in any combination
yet if the system does not.....or cant.....or is not designed
to adjust

ITS SIMPLY A WASH !!!!!!

NO GAIN!!!!!

if the charging system on any bike..... bmw or nor
is not filtered or conditioned to make the adjustments
between a wet...gel or agm battery
net gain is ZERO !!

gel cells have many disadvantages
one being inconsistent draw thru out the cell
when packaged......no matter how consistent they attempt to
mix the elements
they have a tendency to settle & eventually have inconsistent draw
thru out the cell

you do have that in your tech manuals right

no less they work better in stable/consistent environments
they dont particularly like deep cycles
nor do they do any better......lots of times worse with cranking cycles
by the hundreds....or thousands they also degrade quicker !!!!

you do have that in your tech manuals ....right ??

they were designed to negate wet battery disadvantages
weight........ACID.....mounting in any position....low maintenance
perfect for airplanes........
yet many planes have ground assisted start/cranking.........aha !!!!

& in operating from wheels up
the stable characteristics play into gels advantage
the speed of the aircraft has NO factor in recoup or stabilty
yet stop & go traffic....slow riding a moto does

yet as mentioned b4
AGM's were designed to negate many of the gels disadvantages
i could go on

the Major point here is
NO ONE SYSTEM HAS ALL THE ADVANTAGES........or NO Disadvantages !!!

who hasnt seen.......dale jr have battery problems
cost him the race or tony stewart for that matter
there ARE inherent Major disadvantages to all batteries
especially with the rudimentary charging sytems in nascar
held to the barest minimun in capacity.....weight
gels dont like abuse......enter the AGM !!!

fact is some of the sysytems major advantages are CONVENIENCE !!!
in almost every case the old wets.....properly care for will
stay on par with either the other 2
yet many dont do the distilled water.....turkey baster
once a year ........lazy

believe what you want
know very little

no less i didnt hijak the thread
i commented in a forum.....a different point of view

are posts only suppose to garner consenus
& be rubber stamped

i dint know thatswhat we do in an open forum
in a free society

i didnt realize a diametrically opposed view would get a few excercised
bellicose & near belligerent

bmw sold a battery specific charger for years
that many did NOT buy out of deference
opting instead to used Deltrans products

that was not advertised to be battery type specific

you would have to show side by side comparion
of cranking......deep cycles under regular/normal.....NOT lab conditions
that batteries are subjected to
no less usithen show that in addition to those circumstances
that cranking cycles are extended

that overall life of the battery is extended

that overall voltage & amperage draw is enhanced

my contention was...... & IS
when you crank your bike
when you ride you bike
thats what ya got

you could monitor every "S" ever built
sitting in a parking lot with digital meters across the batteries
& charging systems

with manufacturing tolerances
different riding styles
many would NOT be close.........................STILL thats ALL they have !!!!
some good......some very good.....& MANY BAD

not the tender on the bench in the garage
that may be used a single digit percentage total time
if the bike is an actual degradation
if there is no compensation

its simply marketing
only proves you can sell anything
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Old 02-06-2008, 06:29 PM
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Re: Battery Tender Plus for Exide Gel

While I am sure that there is some good information in that rambling, I don't have the time or patience to piece it together.

You did exactly what I thought you would do....ignore engineering facts on charging voltages and currents and try to redirect eleswhere. You didn't address or answer a single question.

I am truly done with trying to educate you on anything.
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Old 02-06-2008, 06:46 PM
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Re: Battery Tender Plus for Exide Gel

A MAN
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Old 02-06-2008, 06:57 PM
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Re: Battery Tender Plus for Exide Gel

Quote:
Originally Posted by HTheater
While I am sure that there is some information in that rambling, I don't have the time or patience to piece it together.

You did exactly what I thought you would do....ignore engineering facts on charging voltages and currents and try to redirect eleswhere. You didn't address or answer a single question.

I am truly done with trying to educate you on anything.

i worked for the largest communication company in the world
for 23 years directly on power systems & redundant
power systems

\no one singularly uses more DC current
not since thomas edison

that every company in the USA.....fed reserve & the miltary still rely on today

we as i mentioned had batteries "GUARANTEED" for 40 years
some lasting longer !!!!

low voltage sytems....direct current less than 100 volts
& you can educate me

i have at my access even now Nasa based technology that can tell me
more that a volt/ohm metre can
& what a deltran .......or an opyimate can do

they generally run between 350-500 dollars
while i will not say i know more on the subject
i do know there are a limited supply of those instruments

for the average starbux conversation cost prohibited
even for your everyday line mechanic

you provided NO technical data
only wordy rationales

believe the company linebuy the company line

you are no better off if you ride your moto
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Old 02-06-2008, 07:05 PM
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Re: Battery Tender Plus for Exide Gel

Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Tail
i worked for the largest communication company in the world
for 23 years directly on power systems & redundant
power systems

THAT explains it all....an AT&T technician. Now I understand where your narrow minded viewpoints come from as I worked hand-in-hand with your research engineers for years.
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Old 02-06-2008, 07:20 PM
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Re: Battery Tender Plus for Exide Gel

why would they be narrow minded ????

with you its always someone else !!!!

no one on par has equaled that construct ....... no one

certainly NOT HP !!!

the world reliies on that construct
& they are narrow minded

steven jobs & wozniak stole directly from them
& on every continent theyve been copied

cant say that about HP

we had GEL batteries in widespread distribution
BEFORE ANYONE

& i dont know their advantages & disadvantages

you are feeble & distorted
get help

remember you know more
you are always right
& its always them

3 sure signs of psychosis !!!!
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  #27  
Old 02-06-2008, 07:59 PM
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Re: Battery Tender Plus for Exide Gel

Why is this post SO LONG...o'h, never mind
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  #28  
Old 02-06-2008, 08:50 PM
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Re: Battery Tender Plus for Exide Gel

Talk
About
Beating
A
DEAD
Fucking
Mule !

Red Tail , reading a thread with you in it is a pain in the Fucking ASS !!!

Your case may be made clearer if one could Read and Follow what it is your trying to say .
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  #29  
Old 02-06-2008, 10:49 PM
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Re: Battery Tender Plus for Exide Gel

Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Tail
why would they be narrow minded ????

with you its always someone else !!!!

no one on par has equaled that construct ....... no one

certainly NOT HP !!!


The master of diversion!

I said I won't attempt to educate you anymore as you have proved to be a poor student. I will, however, respond to your typical ramblings without knowing what you are talking about.

I will give you an example of their narrow mindedness that cost them dearly. They purchased millions of dollars of computers from HP and felt they knew more than the manufacturer in designing a "proper" computer room. An HP manager buckled to the pressure levied from AT&T and allowed them to bypass our typical Site Prep Inspection by our techs. Why? Because the first ones went into Bell Labs and their engineers were like Gods to him. So, they were in charge of their computer room designs.

Funny how they looked just like a telecommunications room. Funny how they had tons of problems until I was flown there to find out what was wrong. ALL of the problems were due to their room design and improper grounding. I traveled around the country to AT&T Data Centers and R&D departments to retrain their techs and engineers on how to build a computer room correctly.

Why couldn't they accept that following our guidelines fixed problem after problem? Because they thought they knew better. Even when confronted with facts they kept denying and trying to find other faults. They never did. That is why your attitude is explained by your previous employment.

BTW, once they gave in and followed our guidelines, we gave them something they had never had before when they used IBM and DEC....99.99% uptime. That is why HP grew at exponential rates compared to their competitors.

AT&T named their "top suppliers" every year and HP was at the top of the list in several areas - business computers, technical computers, Fourier analyzers, bench-top instrumentation (scopes, DVMs, signal analyzers, etc.), audio oscillators.....). Your precious company seemed to like HP enough to attempt to purchase them mulitple times. Why do you have such a hard-on about HP? If it is soley because of me, I am flattered!

AT&T was once an innovator and market leader. That day passed a long, long time ago. They became so large that they couldn't or didn't want to respond to change and became a dinosaur.
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  #30  
Old 02-06-2008, 11:14 PM
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Re: Battery Tender Plus for Exide Gel

Quote:
Originally Posted by HTheater
I am truly done with trying to educate you on anything.

Now why did I know you just couldn't resist
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  #31  
Old 02-06-2008, 11:31 PM
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Re: Battery Tender Plus for Exide Gel

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flyboy
Now why did I know you just couldn't resist

Because you know me well enough to understand that I despise both ignorance and incompetence!
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  #32  
Old 02-07-2008, 08:02 PM
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Re: Battery Tender Plus for Exide Gel

yet you ooooooozzzzzz both

because you had a bad experience doesn mean that is the standard

you also say that your pet peeve is

"i could care less"......yet you use it
took someone else to task in another thread for using it

no doubt HP became a dinosaur........after you left

here at universite'
i let someone read you infamous post ......"i know more than anyone else"

youve been profiled
have become a case study
one prof looked at you moniker avatar

thought it said "the hater"...........thusly so !!

arrogant
self aggrandizing
control freak
sociopath



so sad
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  #33  
Old 02-07-2008, 08:28 PM
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Re: Battery Tender Plus for Exide Gel

This is sooo much better than an everyday, run of the mill oil thread !!!
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  #34  
Old 02-07-2008, 08:43 PM
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Re: Battery Tender Plus for Exide Gel

Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Tail
yet you ooooooozzzzzz both

because you had a bad experience doesn mean that is the standard

I only listed one of many over years of working with them.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Tail
you also say that your pet peeve is

"i could care less"......yet you use it
took someone else to task in another thread for using it

Would you please point out where? I searched and only found this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by HTheater
You are one member here that I couldn't care less for as you often don't add any value to our community....then there are times you almost seem human. You also have displayed knowledge in many areas at times; you are either just out of your expertise here or just trying to be a PITA.

BTW, I mentioned "that if you could care less, then why don't you) to someone else, but I did not demean them in anyway.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Tail
no doubt HP became a dinosaur........after you left

I am not sure what you are trying to say here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Tail
here at universite'
i let someone read you infamous post ......"i know more than anyone else"

Are you trying to say you work or attend a university? If so, you have a lot of nerve to show this post to anyone with an education, unless you blacked out your posts!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Tail
youve been profiled
have become a case study
one prof looked at you moniker avatar

thought it said "the hater"...........thusly so !!

He must be an idiot too. How can one interpret "HTheater" as "the hater"?? I can recommend some reading courses for your professor.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Tail
arrogant
self aggrandizing
control freak
sociopath





so sad

Think what you want as I just consider the source. I DO feel sorry for you as you have such a negative view on life.
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The problem with Socialism is that you eventually run out of other peoples' money. - Margaret Thatcher

You only need two tools in life -WD-40 and Duct Tape. If it doesn't move and should, use the WD-40. If it shouldn't move and does, use the Duct Tape

IF you can't fix it with a hammer, then you have an electrical problem!

Last edited by Htheater : 02-08-2008 at 03:57 PM. Reason: Properly terminated one of the quotes
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  #35  
Old 02-08-2008, 03:50 PM
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Re: Battery Tender Plus for Exide Gel

thinkin is what i do best.....

you didnt even know what "morass" meant
in a stand alone sentence...... a statement
wht it meant was
"you are trapped in your own minefield......... no way out"

& you thought i callked you an ass....

attending college ..........you always cut & paste like a 3rd grader
past the elmers

& you always calling people names !!!!!!!!
......my view of life very positive

let me guess with nothing good to say about HP
with soooo much acrimony
& unless you save the day......in every way

im just guessing........HP fired you
you can call it down sizing......right sizing
they will call it good riddance

i tested so well at the draft board/army
they offered me OCS
i stayed 1A 2 years no induction
they used to call my house

human resources tested me at then the largest most far reaching
company in the world...... 3 days

i passed every test....some exceeding percentile
aggregate score for all tests 94

was idependently wealthy b4 i was 40
doesnt happen punchin a time clock
that was another century....another lifetime

well traveled

solo pianist....& drummer
classically trained......actually read music
toal 18years
maybe i'll get to play with Condy some time

design jewelry.....have had pieces featured

an accomplished photograher......published

& years ago was remarked notably to have the
equivalency of 4 masters degrees

chaos theory
comparative statistics
fractels

so you see when you say idiot....incompetent
it gets no reaction from me

in the november issue of consumer reports
they tested a few dozen car batteries
they did not note......"gels"
altho they have been around for 25 years
[wonder why they havent really caught on....... most notably the trucking industry]

the best batt...... vs the best AGM were on par
yet the AGM was more than 2X the cost
[AGM you did say you had NO experience....right]

1- is it twice the battery.......in any area

2- is it significantly more reliable

3- does it last significantly longer

NO

yes .....i know more widespread exposure....the cost would come down

yes...... i know without question it is a further progression
& yes better than gels

yet to put that in a standard system essentially negates ALL

if exide had a specific algorithim
if it were essential........if bmw was aware & there was a handshake need
[one dependent on the other ]
then licensing of that smart card that could differentiate
between the charging curves would have been the correct move

overall licensing fees would have brought in millions..........millions!!!!!

yet one is force to buy a very expensive battery
plus a very expensive charger.....that exceeds 3x the best regular
battery........resulting in NO clear advantage
save marketing

they get you to spend a hell of a lot of money
for NO gain





im an idiot






not
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  #36  
Old 02-08-2008, 04:01 PM
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Re: Battery Tender Plus for Exide Gel

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You only need two tools in life -WD-40 and Duct Tape. If it doesn't move and should, use the WD-40. If it shouldn't move and does, use the Duct Tape

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  #37  
Old 02-08-2008, 05:37 PM
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Re: Battery Tender Plus for Exide Gel

o come ..........

you brought up the IQ thing

you said youd match wits with me any time any place

come on dont punk out now

this has been so much fun

all the put downs.....that werent'

you steppin on & trippin over your winky
time & again

dont quit now

you ought to have more left

you cant have used it all up on an idiot

as usuall..
your hate wont sustain you

id be embarrased if i were like you

id be pathehic if i were you



ciao
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  #38  
Old 02-08-2008, 08:02 PM
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Re: Battery Tender Plus for Exide Gel

I have better things to do with my life than to continue to deal with you; especially in a "who's dick or wallet is bigger" post.

You know nothing about me, nor am I so insecure that I need to brag about my education, test scores or wealth; I simply stated that I was more qualified than most and you couldn't even understand the meaning of that and tried to attack me as knowing more than everyone else. I DID fall into the trap of trumping your status as a tech at AT&T, which was wrong on my part to stoop to that level.

I do know that you don't read or comprehend well, nor do you write well, yet you bash me for simply using the quote function of the site and call it "3rd grade cut and pasting". What a joke - YOU telling someone how to post properly!! YOU are laughed at by many, many members; not just my friends.

You try to call me out on using one of my pet peeves, yet never could back that up. Just like all of your other dribble. I could go on, but I won't.

The points about the thread have been beaten to death. Now all we have left are personal attacks. You constantly lie about me, state that I hate you, you would be embarrassed to be me, pathetic, etc.

Well, you aren't me and I am glad of that as I wouldn't want to be like you in any form or fashion.

You say that I am on a power trip; if that were the case, you wouldn't be able to post on this site. I have had many emails and PMs asking me why I put up with such a jerk and suggesting I can you. My skin is tough. I just consider the source.

Have a nice life. I am happy with mine.

I am closing this thread as no value is coming from further posts.
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You only need two tools in life -WD-40 and Duct Tape. If it doesn't move and should, use the WD-40. If it shouldn't move and does, use the Duct Tape

IF you can't fix it with a hammer, then you have an electrical problem!
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  #39  
Old 07-07-2018, 02:19 PM
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RayRay RayRay is offline
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Re: Battery Tender Plus for Exide Gel

let it go, let it go, let it go. please
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Old 07-07-2018, 03:35 PM
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Re: Battery Tender Plus for Exide Gel

Quote:
Originally Posted by RayRay
let it go, let it go, let it go. please
Hey Ray, that was over ten years ago. Neither of those members post anymore.
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