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  #1  
Old 09-27-2014, 01:30 PM
Jordank1300s Jordank1300s is offline
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K1300s clutch problems

I need help you guys my clutch is completely burned out @ only 16,000km now I'm not a racer and I don't do stunts I can't justify crashing a $24,000 bike. Now I went through BMW warranty and they are giving me the big middle finger.(about 1,500 fix) I have been riding the k bikes since 2007 and haven't had any problems, all my cars are manuals so I know how to use a clutch and yes I know how to burn a clutch out and I haven't even been hard on it my 1300 is the only bike I have so I baby it. I use my shift assist all the time and only do big trips with it I stay out of the city's because it will over heat and I hate city drivers ( they never see you)
So that's my story it's a little long but I had to tell you all the facts if you have any info for me I would appreciate it so much.
Thanks
Jordan
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  #2  
Old 09-27-2014, 01:42 PM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Hi Jordan, welcome

Is a weird problem if you have used the clutch without abuse, few cases of burned clutches in K13...

I Think you have to do a bit of pressure to your dealer, because they can check if the bike was used according the norms, There are cases when BMW acceded to repair outside of warranty

You have done all services At BMW and in time?
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Old 09-27-2014, 01:45 PM
lfoggy lfoggy is offline
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

When you say the clutch is 'burned out' what do you mean exactly? It would be extraorinary for the friction plates to be worn out in 16,000Km of normal use....
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Old 09-27-2014, 03:15 PM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

First of all welcome to the forum Jordan. You wil find a lot of expertise on your bike here. You should post an introduction on the introduce yourself forum.

Has the problem with your clutch been diagnosed by your dealership? Fried is a vague description.

What years is the bike?
Have you owned it since new?
Has it been dealer serviced at the prescribed intervals?
What exact symptoms are you experiencing?
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Old 09-28-2014, 08:00 PM
Jordank1300s Jordank1300s is offline
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Hey thanks I'll answer from the top down. Yes all work has been done by BMW and only BMW recommended oil has been put in with oil changes done every 5,000km.... What I mean by burned out is any form of acceleration like passing a car (doesn't matter what gear its in) the bike would shutter and rpm's would race with a vibration at my knees and yes I'm lost for words why the would go that fast......the bike has been to the dealership and they said it was burned out I have a picture but nothing to compare it to the bike is a 2010, I had it from 0km and the maintenance has been done as per schedule by BMW.....
My only option is to contact BMW Canada and find out what I can get out of them I just wanted to do some home work before I call them.
Thanks
Jordan
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Old 09-28-2014, 08:38 PM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Jordan:

Welcome to the site.

Now lets try and figure out what is going on. I think you are out of warranty by time. But you state your BMW dealer has done all your maintenance. Are they giving you the middle finger?

Did this clutch failure just show up all of a sudden or have you been noticing something going on for some time?

Have your dealer give you a detailed work order - what parts are damaged/worn out - how many hours to do the repair.

Have them list the part numbers.

Then if you have not asked them - do so now - what do they think caused the failure?

And at 16,000 km/9,940 miles - disregard the time frame for a minute - why on earth has your dealer not contacted BMW on your behalf? I would put that question right to them - they are your dealer - your advocate - they need to step up to the plate and represent you.

Also you do need to contact BMW - better to have all your facts from your dealer first - assuming they are going to back you up.

Of course you will need to hear what your dealer feels caused the failure.

When speaking to BMW keep your emotions in check - just give them facts and certainly let them know how disappointed you are. Also be prepared to not get an answer right away - in fact could take several weeks.

The one thing that does not work in your favor is if you get it repaired before they give you an answer - they tend to be less generous after the fact.

Good luck.
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  #7  
Old 09-28-2014, 09:12 PM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

For $1500 it sounds to me like they are replacing the entire clutch not just the friction plates. They can tell if of the bike has been abused or not.
I agree with Bruce, I would speak directly to their lead BMW mechanic and get his opinion about exactly what failed in your clutch, then speak to their service manager and remind him what a good customer you have been and ask that they advocate for you with BMW Canada. Might be that is all it will take to get things moving.
Worth a try.
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Old 09-29-2014, 07:53 PM
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Angry Re: K1300s clutch problems

Hi guys. Not really a thread veteran but here goes. Been reading this post in earnest and its high time I let you guys know what's going on. I have the exact same problem with my bike. It's currently in BMW Manhattan getting serviced. And now it's finished. (7 weeks and $1200)
They said its my fault. But I'm 47 and on my 5th bike. Never abused this bike one bit. I do
however go WOT on occasion but nothing crazy. No stoppies or wheelies. I'm upset cause the bike still has a few months left of warranty and they won't even mention warranty. Just that it is my fault and I gotta eat the repair expense due to a wear part. If I do in the end have to pay up after putting in a claim against BMW, I will no doubt get rid of the bike and go to Honda and a Goldwing. Never ever had a slipping clutch problem and I was born with a clutch in my mouth instead of a silver spoon. Thanks for any insight guys or gals.

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Old 09-29-2014, 09:43 PM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Quote:
Originally Posted by KSTAR
Hi guys. Not really a thread veteran but here goes. Been reading this post in earnest and its high time I let you guys know what's going on. I have the exact same problem with my bike. It's currently in BMW Manhattan getting serviced. And now it's finished. (7 weeks and $1200)
They said its my fault. But I'm 47 and on my 5th bike. Never abused this bike one bit. I do
however go WOT on occasion but nothing crazy. No stoppies or wheelies. I'm upset cause the bike still has a few months left of warranty and they won't even mention warranty. Just that it is my fault and I gotta eat the repair expense due to a wear part. If I do in the end have to pay up after putting in a claim against BMW, I will no doubt get rid of the bike and go to Honda and a Goldwing. Never ever had a slipping clutch problem and I was born with a clutch in my mouth instead of a silver spoon. Thanks for any insight guys or gals.

2011 K1300S tri-color with Remus and MRA screen

Sorry to hear about your bad experience Marc. Seven weeks is a long time to be down over a clutch. Based on that, and the cost, is sounds like you to are also having your entire clutch replaced. In 7 weeks they could have shipped the parts from the fatherland on a slow boat and you would have had them sooner.

You have not included a lot of detail in your post, however looks to me like you have a lot to be disgruntled about. Possibly others here have experience with that dealership.

Not sure how you see a Gold Wing as a replacement for the K1300S. You must have some other reasons to want to get rid of the bike beyond the clutch problem. Unhappy Pillion?

If it was me I would fix it and keep riding, IMO there is no other sport touring bike on the planet that holds a candle to the K1300S.
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Old 09-29-2014, 10:04 PM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jordank1300s
I need help you guys my clutch is completely burned out @ only 16,000km now I'm not a racer and I don't do stunts I can't justify crashing a $24,000 bike. Now I went through BMW warranty and they are giving me the big middle finger.(about 1,500 fix) I have been riding the k bikes since 2007 and haven't had any problems, all my cars are manuals so I know how to use a clutch and yes I know how to burn a clutch out and I haven't even been hard on it my 1300 is the only bike I have so I baby it. I use my shift assist all the time and only do big trips with it I stay out of the city's because it will over heat and I hate city drivers ( they never see you)
So that's my story it's a little long but I had to tell you all the facts if you have any info for me I would appreciate it so much.
Thanks
Jordan


Just curious if the clutch lever was replaced before the problem on yours or the other one further down the list, can be a problem if adjusted improperly.
H
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Old 09-30-2014, 11:24 AM
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Cool Re: K1300s clutch problems

Sorry Mike, the bike has 9500 miles on it.
And never dropped. Running those new pilot powers and there awesome.
And yes, pillion complains all the time(must be her big butt lol).
But in Manhattan and surrounding boroughs the roads are all grade
F. The Hossack front end is very choppy for the gritty city streets.
However, this bike is truly sublime everywhere else. The power
And handling, stability is second to none. And fit and finish is high quality.
If traded I can see myself getting another example down the road.
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Old 10-02-2014, 10:12 PM
Jordank1300s Jordank1300s is offline
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Well my still has warranty until 2016 my clutch lever has never been touched. My dealership is supporting me and they've forward me a phone number for BMW Canada will have more info by Monday. I'm glad I'm not the only one that is having problems with this but I'll try to have the motorcycle approved to be fixed from BMW before I fix it myself I do agree with you they probably won't help me out if I already fixed it.
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Old 11-12-2014, 11:36 PM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Its not a K1300 but, my 11,000 mile 2007 K1200R just had the same failure. Im the second owner but, I cant see the previous owner abusing the bike.

I twisted the throttle to accelerate on to the highway and I got the barking dog noise and the RPMs just kept increasing. I let out of the throttle and pulled into the break down lane. Ive been rideing it VERY VERY EASY until I get my Barnett Clutch.

I like you,,, dont abuse the clutch and was SHOCKED when it failed.

So,, I spent a fortune on BMW special tools ( Clutch basket wrench, crank zero pin, gear unloader and the special case bolts. ) I do all my own work so, I save there.

Man,,,,,,, ,,,, 11,000 miles and the clutch is FRIED. Yep, BMW stands for: "BREAK MY WALLET" Or "BROKE MUST WALK"

Thanks for listening


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Old 11-22-2014, 11:16 PM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

I've posed this question to the "master mechanic" this afternoon after I had my first test ride before I placed my order.
According to him, the reason the clutch fails prematurely is due to the clutch plates are above the oil level and when the bike is parked for an extended period of time, condensation results from occasional startups to without moving the bike and causes the steel plates to rust to stick to adjacent plates. I am not sure if it is so but he might be partially onto something. In regards to the assembly being replaced, he said that'w how BMW supplies the plates. On the other hand, there are third party plates which are about $150.
Keep in mind, I am the messenger here, these are not my opinions.
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Old 11-22-2014, 11:24 PM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Quote:
Originally Posted by RuhiA
I've posed this question to the "master mechanic" this afternoon after I had my first test ride before I placed my order.
According to him, the reason the clutch fails prematurely is due to the clutch plates are above the oil level and when the bike is parked for an extended period of time, condensation results from occasional startups to without moving the bike and causes the steel plates to rust to stick to adjacent plates. I am not sure if it is so but he might be partially onto something. In regards to the assembly being replaced, he said that'w how BMW supplies the plates. On the other hand, there are third party plates which are about $150.
Keep in mind, I am the messenger here, these are not my opinions.

Hi Ruhi

Your "master mechanic" perhaps may not know that K1300 engines have dry sump, ergo always the clutch is above the oil level because there is no level, in the instant when you start the engine all the mechanisms receives full pressure of oil. On the other side, there is no difference if you park the bike in different positions.
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Old 11-23-2014, 09:06 AM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Quote:
Originally Posted by RuhiA
I've posed this question to the "master mechanic" this afternoon after I had my first test ride before I placed my order.
According to him, the reason the clutch fails prematurely is due to the clutch plates are above the oil level and when the bike is parked for an extended period of time, condensation results from occasional startups to without moving the bike and causes the steel plates to rust to stick to adjacent plates.
Keep in mind, I am the messenger here, these are not my opinions.

I never heard such a remarkable explanation.
First: the friction material on a clutch plate does not rust. So the plate stubs have to rust solid with the clutch cage and/or to the splines of the shaft. Hmmm...
Second: If they do, than the whole package would form one big lump that prevents the clutch from slipping, not propagating it.
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Old 11-23-2014, 01:32 PM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Quote:
Originally Posted by RuhiA
I've posed this question to the "master mechanic" this afternoon

Another clueless "Master Mechanic"! His explanation is ridiculous!

ALL wet clutches in ALL motorcycles are ABOVE the level of the oil. If wet clutches were immersed in oil, the rotation of the clutch would whip the oil into a froth, and the oil pump would be sucking in a lot of air.
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Old 11-23-2014, 02:54 PM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Quote:
Originally Posted by RFW
Another clueless "Master Mechanic"! His explanation is ridiculous!

ALL wet clutches in ALL motorcycles are ABOVE the level of the oil. If wet clutches were immersed in oil, the rotation of the clutch would whip the oil into a froth, and the oil pump would be sucking in a lot of air.

I agree.. If it were inside the oil in the sump the loss of power from rotating thru the thick oil would be significant.

If you have enough moisture inside the engine to cause the clutch to rust, you would see milky oil in the reservoir.

BC
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Old 11-23-2014, 03:25 PM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Quote:
Originally Posted by RFW
Another clueless "Master Mechanic"! His explanation is ridiculous!
His BS-O-Meter was redlining as I listened but I did not have my app running to quantify the levels, therefore, I had his title in quotes.
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Old 04-02-2015, 04:11 PM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

I have a similar problem with my 2009 K1300S. It has covered 27,000 miles (45,452 km) with the last 14,000 miles under my ownership. I use the bike for daily commuting but one out of 1st gear normally use the quickshifter. The previous owner lived in rural England so I suspect he didn't do a lot of slow speed commuting.

The clutch isn't slipping but the lever is at the end of it's adjustment and the clutch only disengages when the lever is hard to the bars. Occasionally when stationary it can be tricky to downshift to 1st however no more than when the clutch was disengaging earlier.

On my last service (at 24,000 miles) the BMW dealer reported the clutch was nearing its end but it has soldiered on for over 3,000 miles since then!

The same dealer investigated the clutch at 15,000 miles as it was exhibiting excessive noise which I have since learnt is simply the clutch basket. However after their 'investigations' (which included removing the clutch and soaking it in oil) the clutch action was more juddery and disengaged closer to the bars then before.

I am considering doing the clutch change myself, or if it proves complicated (why should I need 5 specialist BMW tools just to do this?) simply buy the parts myself and get an independent BMW Motorrad repairer to do the works.

My question is: what could the actual worn component be? The clutch? The basket? The master cylinder mechanism? All three?

While the clutch pack itself isn't cheap the basket is frighteningly expensive so if the fault isn't this I would be a very happy owner!

I am based in London UK.

Thanks in advance for your kind assistance.

Peter
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Old 04-02-2015, 05:03 PM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

I had a similar problem which was due to failure of the clutch plates to disengage properly. This was caused by the plates sticking in the clutch basket. Take the clutch apart and inspect the area on the basket that bears against the tabs of the clutch plates. You will probably find a series of regular indentations. One or more of these indentations may be catching on the tabs and preventing free movement of the plates. Smooth these off with a file and emery cloth. Worked for me. My problem occurred at 20k miles and was fixed by this method. Now on >30K miles and no problems.
Dealer will never countenance a fix like this. They will only suggest expensive replacement.
By the way, you need no special tools for this job, just a pneumatic wrench to get the large clutch nut off.
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Old 04-02-2015, 05:54 PM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

OK, I will stand up and say it
"I was a clutch abuser and have been abuse free for 20 years".

I did not know better and my poor old Honda 750 had to die to teach me. I used to hold the clutch in at stop lights. The Honda dealer told me the sad tale of how on warm days holding the clutch in warmed the clutch up. Waiting for a long light is enough to fling off all the oil (thinner due to heat) and even half throttle can warp a plate or burn the oil or burn the friction discs. Even time at the drag strip is easier on the clutch than a long left turn signal on a warm day.

I am not saying this is your problem, but it has not been mentioned.
BTW, if your K1200/1300 overheats sitting in traffic, you need to bleed the cooling system.
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Old 04-02-2015, 07:06 PM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Quote:
Originally Posted by lfoggy
I had a similar problem which was due to failure of the clutch plates to disengage properly. This was caused by the plates sticking in the clutch basket. Take the clutch apart and inspect the area on the basket that bears against the tabs of the clutch plates. You will probably find a series of regular indentations. One or more of these indentations may be catching on the tabs and preventing free movement of the plates. Smooth these off with a file and emery cloth. Worked for me. My problem occurred at 20k miles and was fixed by this method. Now on >30K miles and no problems.
Dealer will never countenance a fix like this. They will only suggest expensive replacement.
By the way, you need no special tools for this job, just a pneumatic wrench to get the large clutch nut off.

Thanks IFoggy, certainly worth a try! I was contemplating replacing the plates with Barnett carbon fibre plates from the USA. This might be a middle ground first step.
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Old 04-05-2015, 11:16 PM
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Smile Re: K1300s clutch problems

Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterD
Thanks IFoggy, certainly worth a try! I was contemplating replacing the plates with Barnett carbon fibre plates from the USA. This might be a middle ground first step.

I just put one in mine and have a couple hundred miles since the snow went away and it is a remarkable improvement over the stock Clutch, no chatter or groaning and even more remarkable is the clunk when putting into first is now much better and is no worse than any other wet clutch in the world. My stock clutch had 39 k miles and was still good, not slipping
And looked like new, no other wear On any of the parts, basket or hub. And it only costs
About 165.00 US worth every penny.
H
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Old 04-06-2015, 05:55 AM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Quote:
Originally Posted by hgp3
I just put one in mine and have a couple hundred miles since the snow went away and it is a remarkable improvement over the stock Clutch, no chatter or groaning and even more remarkable is the clunk when putting into first is now much better and is no worse than any other wet clutch in the world. My stock clutch had 39 k miles and was still good, not slipping
And looked like new, no other wear On any of the parts, basket or hub. And it only costs
About 165.00 US worth every penny.
H

Thanks @hgp3. I have found an independent BMW mechanic and will take the bike to him in just under 2 weeks time. I think this is the best plan so far - unless when we get her undressed the problem is worse!
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Old 06-17-2015, 11:45 AM
fourhundred4 fourhundred4 is offline
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Hello All. My first post here. Been reading this thread and others about the shudder and slipping clutches in the K1200 and K1300 engines. Can't hold my tongue or sit on my hands any longer and just have to chip in.

I don't own one of these fantastic machines but run a very small (just me) part time (retired engineers hobby) business re-engineering multi plate motorcycle clutches. Up until now its been purely for the Japanese bikes but my reputation there has just led to three different owners contacting me about their across the frame inclined fours.

Typical problems are -
1 - Chatter at idle in neutral with lever released.
2 - Shudder while taking off from rest.
3 - Vibration while riding - particularly harsh low down.
4 - Clutch lever hardly needs to move when changing up to make smooth changes.

Bike one had covered only 15,000 miles and suffered with 1 and 2. Owner asked a few questions of me and his local workshop and decided to sell the bike. I had been keen to help and asked questions of an old contact who was dealer principle of a quite local to me BWM dealership. He denied these bikes had ever had a this problem. Different story a year or so later when I catch the parts counter guy and workshop manager off guard in very interesting conversation. More about that later.

Bike two had done 50,000 miles. Was a GT in at a local dealers workshop for attention to the clutch and had all the above problems. Told me it was a customers bike but I later learned it was back on their used stock for sale. Not what you would expect but I saw the bike with all its engine open and it was all in immaculate condition. Said it had full service history with them and hoped would be a quick sale for someone looking to pick up a long distance touring bike in the spring. Not trusting used parts they were faced with a parts bill for nearly 1,000 GB pounds to sort the clutch which was going to knock all their profit out of the deal. Long story short I re-engineered the parts and the bike now runs like new. Their feedback - not mine.

Bike three is here just now. Only 12,000 miles its a 1200R and is immaculate from top to bottom. Suffers with all four problems listed above. Rare for me to take complete bikes in for the work as usually receive and modify just the problem parts of the Japanese clutches. The owner lives close by and his tale of woe in trying to get it sorted out was simply too much for me to ignore. I'm cataloguing what I find with pictures and videos out of interest and in an effort to help owners sort their own bikes out in the process. Pictures worth a thousand words and all. Yes in the end I might end up performing modifications for a few owners who pay me but I'm not allowed (well I assume this) to look for business here without registering as a vendor and paying my bit. The question begs which comes first as in the Chicken or the Egg. Here its solution to the K1200 and 1300 clutch problem and then a sale? Or never a solution and never a sale. I hope everyone is fine with this approach.
The cost of re-engineering and the tooling required for the work is significant in parts alone. Never mind adding my time. Doing them as now for experiment takes for ever.

So here's the first of my findings with the third bike -

The chatter at idle with the lever released is intermittent. Seems the engine has a few what sounds like little misfires and the chatter starts. Its there at all engine temperatures and not always accompanied by the little misfires. Something is clearly wrong and I'm not even going to rule out the that the misfire could be caused by the chatter. The clutch is a very heavy rotating mass and perhaps this engines only true flywheel so the upset the idle chatter causes to the crankshaft pickup could well be linked. It is on a large Vtwin I modify. The crank pickup perhaps the only place this engines cpu receives crank position and engine rpm for fuelling and ignition timing.

The whole bike shudders while taking off from rest. Its the same shudder while the clutch is slipping to take up the drive as is also felt when the clutch is definitely no longer slipping. Says to me the shudder is not the oil or friction material. Its much more likely something mechanical in the clutch damper. That's the torsion damper built into the back of the clutch cage. That damper is working all the time the engine is running and has a hard time to keep the engine feeling refined when dealing with the engines different behaviours and many states of load.

Vibration while riding - particularly harsh low down. Its a state of the art inline 1200 cc four. Should be smooth, refined and tractable right down to idle engine speeds in even second or third gears at least. Its not. Its like riding something with a coffee grinder under the tank. Or as one owners put it - using his twenty five year old angle grinder with its worn out bearings. The low down vibration is the same shudder as felt while taking off. Not my bike but certain I could narrow this down to particular engine speeds, load no load and the likes if I could ride it for a week. Be nice but not the time or a kind thing to do to someone else's bike.

Clutch lever hardly needs to move to make smooth changes. Yes the bite point is late and short. Late as in the lever is at full stretch of your fingers before the bike is being driven. You could be forgiven for pulling it back in and checking you were not still in neutral. Short as in there's not much lever movement between no drive and full drive. Quarter inch or less. Feels to me as if the plates are getting thin due to wear but the owners says it does not slip at all under heavy loads. Gear changes are sometimes smooth, sometimes clunky. Only ridden two miles at most so I could get better.

Sorry its been such a large wordy first post. Off to see if I can load pictures of the insides and get the message over in an easier fashion.
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Old 06-17-2015, 01:04 PM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Hi John, welcome

Seems will be really interesting to have you here

Many information tips and tricks about problems you mention, I think you can add your experiences...

btw... i've never had issues about clutch in my 2 K13R...
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Old 06-17-2015, 01:49 PM
fourhundred4 fourhundred4 is offline
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Thank you for the good reception bernardo.

Here's my first attempt at loading pictures.


Remove four screws from the slave cylinder and tie it up somewhere safe so not to damage the finish. Better than opening the hydraulics and all the fun of dirt and air getting in and cost of fluid to bleed it afterwards. See its to the right.
Then remove eighteen screws from the cover. This bike had four slightly shorter than the rest so I marked which holes they came out of. All will be put back carefully to be certain they clamp the cover and are not bottoming in their holes.
Here I'm holding the cover in place as though I just lifted it away. Observant will note no gasket and the odd loop of wire sticking out as I did a little more before taking the picture.
Worthy of note is the crack in this cover where it fits over a dowel. See very close to centre of picture. A bike shop has been in to try and fix the clutch problem but levered the cover while still tight on the dowel.
And the final thing is that wire loop. Its a handle on the alternator drive gear lock. Will explain in another picture.

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Old 06-17-2015, 01:59 PM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Amazing - worked first time.

Here's the explanation of that loop of wire. The large gear is the back of the clutch which is driven by the crankshaft. The small gear is the take off for the alternator and is actually two gears sprung so their teeth don't line up easily. This creates a scissor action with any gear they mesh with. It means the little bit of play you must have in all gear teeth is not allowed to rattle and make a noise. Its also known as a backlash eliminator. The wire needs pushing into a pair of holes through the gears to lock the backlash eliminator so it disables the scissor action and keeps the gear teeth lined up. This so the clutch slides out for inspection - and back in easily afterwards. BMW sell a special tool for this lock but that's a certain diameter of wire I have a roll of and fits perfectly. Truth will be how easy the main clutch gear slides back in come assembly time.

Also of interest is the visible mark made by the friction plate tangs in the splines of the basket. Almost centre of the picture. Clearly there is a clutch plate missing from that position. Moved somewhere else in the pack by the workshop or not there at all? Now why did I take this job on.....
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Old 06-17-2015, 02:46 PM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

So here into the heart of these clutches and what I believe to be the first obvious problem with their design. Its a wet multi-plate clutch. Shocking thing is its not wet with oil as it should be. More damp with oil soaked cast off friction lining that's made its own paste. This paste has even travelled against the centrifugal force of the clutch rotation and built up inside the friction plate. See top left of the picture. Idea of any clutch just like a brake shoe or pad is the lining wears a little each time its used. That lining dust has to be got rid of from the friction surface or it causes problems. Here we see the first friction plate to come out has the spaces between the lining segments completely blocked by the paste. No wonder the clutches don't feel good. This plate for one is acting like a drum brake might that's full of its own dust. Remember how they would squeal or grab and not actually do much braking? All it did was cook the friction material and make the brake worse. The oil passing between the segments is supposed to lubricate the friction surface and carry the worn lining away so the clutch behaves like a clutch. And no doubt keep the lining cooled as there's no air to blow past as in a dry clutch or over your discs.
I think this explains why so many owners are being accused of cooking their clutches after less than 10,000 miles of sensible use. And why so many report being on their second and third clutch within 30,000 miles or so.

Its also clear to see that there are non standard scratches in the steel plate immediately behind. That says to me the previous visitor here cleaned the steels up with abrasive or glass paper to overcome some unpleasant behaviour in the friction discs.
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Old 06-17-2015, 03:07 PM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

And here we see the clutch hub in place before I took it out and exposed the plates. The hub has small holes which take the oil through to keep the friction linings "washed". See two holes in the grooves just either side of six o'clock at the bottom of the picture. The holes are clean and more worryingly dry as a bone. In fact the whole hub centre is dry. That hole in the middle of the shaft has an oil feed. Problem seems to be when it gets out its not splashing on the oil catcher grooves in the hub.

Also of interest this bike is missing the chain guard on the cam chain sprocket. See bottom right. If the chain breaks it could feed straight through the gap in the casting and lock the clutch and probably the rear wheel. Odd that the machined hole is there to mount a chain guard. They just never fitted it.
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Old 06-17-2015, 03:43 PM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Quote:
Originally Posted by fourhundred4
Amazing - worked first time.

Excellent!

Can you post a pic of the bike! just for curiosity (and see what chain tensioner have you )

Thanks for sharing...
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Old 06-17-2015, 04:55 PM
fourhundred4 fourhundred4 is offline
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Quote:
Originally Posted by bernardo
Excellent!

Can you post a pic of the bike! just for curiosity (and see what chain tensioner have you )

Thanks for sharing...

Its a 2006 registered K1200R. Everything inside shows a casting date of 2004. Do you want a picture of the outside of the tensioner?
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Old 06-17-2015, 05:03 PM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

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Originally Posted by fourhundred4
Its a 2006 registered K1200R. Everything inside shows a casting date of 2004. Do you want a picture of the outside of the tensioner?
Yeap, and the whole beastie
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Old 06-17-2015, 07:29 PM
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Bill Curlee Bill Curlee is offline
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Quote:
Originally Posted by fourhundred4
And here we see the clutch hub in place before I took it out and exposed the plates. The hub has small holes which take the oil through to keep the friction linings "washed". See two holes in the grooves just either side of six o'clock at the bottom of the picture. The holes are clean and more worryingly dry as a bone. In fact the whole hub centre is dry. That hole in the middle of the shaft has an oil feed. Problem seems to be when it gets out its not splashing on the oil catcher grooves in the hub.

Also of interest this bike is missing the chain guard on the cam chain sprocket. See bottom right. If the chain breaks it could feed straight through the gap in the casting and lock the clutch and probably the rear wheel. Odd that the machined hole is there to mount a chain guard. They just never fitted it.


fourhundred4

Thank You for all the work you have done to shed light on our clutch woes.

I have a 2007 K1200R that I purchased second hand. It had 8000 miles on it at purchase. Clutch has never been BMW quality. My 02 K1200RS had a dry clutch and a MUCH better feel.

It has just over 9000 miles now. My clutch is SHOT. I can not apply more that moderate throttle without causing clutch slippage.

I have a NEW Barnett Clutch that I have to install. I have to wait until I can afford to lay the bike up for several maintenances task that are needed.

Im reading your clutch review with Deep Interest! I find it very ODD that we have a WET CLUTCH but yet we have a DRY SUMP OIL SYSTEM!

Where does the OIL for the wet clutch come from?? Any way to improve the oil to the plates??????

I have ALL of your "Noted CLUTCH PROBLEMS"

Typical problems are -
1 - Chatter at idle in neutral with lever released.
2 - Shudder while taking off from rest.
3 - Vibration while riding - particularly harsh low down.
4 - Clutch lever hardly needs to move when changing up to make smooth changes.

I can give you a fifth problem: Howling dog noise when taking off from a stop. LOL!!

I have yet to open up the engine and dig in. In another CLUTCH POST, someone discussed the " torsion damper springs" and the RIVITS that hold that plate to the clutch hub. They stated that the rivits could be loose thus adding to some of our clutch noise. I plan on checking those rivits and adjusting them if necessary.

I too believe that those springs are not up to the task of providing proper dampening.

Thank You again

PS. The clutch cover fasteners are a ONE TIME USE torque to yeield fastener.
I will tell you that I plan on carefully RE-INSTALLING my old fasteners so that I can make sure that all the clutch work that I have to do doesnt require me to go back into the crank case. After the work and repairs are proven good, I will install my NEW fasteners and properly torque them in place.
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Old 06-17-2015, 08:15 PM
fourhundred4 fourhundred4 is offline
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Curlee
fourhundred4

Thank You for all the work you have done to shed light on our clutch woes.

I have a 2007 K1200R that I purchased second hand. It had 8000 miles on it at purchase. Clutch has never been BMW quality. My 02 K1200RS had a dry clutch and a MUCH better feel.

It has just over 9000 miles now. My clutch is SHOT. I can not apply more that moderate throttle without causing clutch slippage.

I have a NEW Barnett Clutch that I have to install. I have to wait until I can afford to lay the bike up for several maintenances task that are needed.

Im reading your clutch review with Deep Interest! I find it very ODD that we have a WET CLUTCH but yet we have a DRY SUMP OIL SYSTEM!

Where does the OIL for the wet clutch come from?? Any way to improve the oil to the plates??????

I have ALL of your "Noted CLUTCH PROBLEMS"

Typical problems are -
1 - Chatter at idle in neutral with lever released.
2 - Shudder while taking off from rest.
3 - Vibration while riding - particularly harsh low down.
4 - Clutch lever hardly needs to move when changing up to make smooth changes.

I can give you a fifth problem: Howling dog noise when taking off from a stop. LOL!!

I have yet to open up the engine and dig in. In another CLUTCH POST, someone discussed the " torsion damper springs" and the RIVITS that hold that plate to the clutch hub. They stated that the rivits could be loose thus adding to some of our clutch noise. I plan on checking those rivits and adjusting them if necessary.

I too believe that those springs are not up to the task of providing proper dampening.

Thank You again

PS. The clutch cover fasteners are a ONE TIME USE torque to yeield fastener.
I will tell you that I plan on carefully RE-INSTALLING my old fasteners so that I can make sure that all the clutch work that I have to do doesnt require me to go back into the crank case. After the work and repairs are proven good, I will install my NEW fasteners and properly torque them in place.

I find it worrying that clutch slippage can occur at such a low mileage. Just to be certain the engine speed is racing away much faster than the bike is accelerating or moving for the gear you are in. Is there the correct free play at the lever before it gets stiffer and starts to disengage the clutch? Book says "no play hydraulic" but there has to be a whisker there or you can't be certain the master cylinder is self adjusting after every action.

Book also says "wet clutch in oil bath" but clear this book was written by someone who never saw the motorcycle. Never mind inside its engine.
Wet clutch just means its in the oil side of the engine casings. Dry means it out in the fresh air but well covered so you would never poke your finger in while it was running.
I never seen a wet clutch that did dip into the oil in the sump. They get wet from the oil mist and splash that's being flung off other moving parts like crankshafts and gearbox bearings. These engines have a dry sump. Its not really dry or even much of a sump. Just a small low area under the engine where oil that's done its job collects. There's a pump that scavenges oil out of the small sump and sends it to a tank outside the engine. Tank on these is part of the inner rear mud guard. Fender to you fellas on the other side of the pond. Your oil level is visible through a clear pipe running up the outside of this tank. This is sometimes known as the low pressure side.
The high pressure side is another pump that draws oil from the bottom of this tank where its cool and then pumps it through the filter, oil cooler and then to the main bearings, big ends, cam shafts and gearbox bearings. Its this oil when finally released from its pressure thats intended to be splashing from the end of the hollow gearbox shaft (big nut round it) in my picture above. Centrifugal force then taking it to the channels in the clutch hub where its supposed to be reaching the clutch plates to make them wet. Only just wet for most of the plates. Not at all wet for the face of the friction plate I show. Wish there was a diagram of this.

The torsion damper springs in the clutch basket or cage as BMW name it some places are definitely a weak point. The 50,000 mile clutch I re-engineered required all new springs but at least it was only half the cost of a new basket from BMW. Thing with a new basket is you have to buy new oil pump drive and a complete new set of clutch plates. BMW call this an upgrade but its the same parts with just a different coupling to the oil drive gear so everything has to be changed. Same parts that are going to go wrong just the same. Slightly less chance in some K1300 engines as they introduced a revised clutch plate which might not suffer so bad with the lack of oil splash.

The rivets in that 50,000 mile basket were in great shape. Unlike some Japanese designs where they get overloaded because of other faults in the damper.

Will soon see how this basket (cage) from the K1200R is when I get it open to measure up the insides. It feels wrong outside so expecting the worst but can be re-engineered for much less than a new one and we won't have to buy new plates or the revised oil pump drive.

Will do same as you with the cover screws. Bit of oil on each when fitted temporary for road testing. The new if the guy whose bike it is wants to splash out.

Its not a hard job to go in and change the plates. Pictures here tell nearly all the story.
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Old 06-17-2015, 11:09 PM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Quote:
Originally Posted by fourhundred4
I find it worrying that clutch slippage can occur at such a low mileage. Just to be certain the engine speed is racing away much faster than the bike is accelerating or moving for the gear you are in.

QUOTE "I find it worrying that clutch slippage can occur at such a low mileage."
Yes ME TOO. Yes,, under power, the engine REVS and the bike doesnt accelerate. CLUTCH SLIPPAGE. I am a clutch guy from WAY WAY WAY back.. So,,, it wasnt ME who abused it. I doubt the guy that owned it before me abused it either. Bike was in mint condition. Just crappy BMW design.....

I have a question for you.. Do you think that there may be some things that WE can do to get more OIL FLOW to the clutch plates? Do some oil hole chamfering or elongating????

Thats why I asked the clutch oil flow path question.

What IMPROVEMENTS do you do to the OEM Clutch system?? Have yo found a source for the JUDDER SPRING and damper springs?

I refuse to take the bike to the Stealership unless it the LAST STRAW.


Is there the correct free play at the lever before it gets stiffer and starts to disengage the clutch? Book says "no play hydraulic" but there has to be a whisker there or you can't be certain the master cylinder is self adjusting after every action.

YES... I have free play and the 1/4" of clutch lever that you discussed. Far different than Im use to on other bikes.



Book also says "wet clutch in oil bath" but clear this book was written by someone who never saw the motorcycle. Never mind inside its engine.
Wet clutch just means its in the oil side of the engine casings. Dry means it out in the fresh air but well covered so you would never poke your finger in while it was running.
I never seen a wet clutch that did dip into the oil in the sump. They get wet from the oil mist and splash that's being flung off other moving parts like crankshafts and gearbox bearings. These engines have a dry sump. Its not really dry or even much of a sump. Just a small low area under the engine where oil that's done its job collects. There's a pump that scavenges oil out of the small sump and sends it to a tank outside the engine. Tank on these is part of the inner rear mud guard. Fender to you fellas on the other side of the pond. Your oil level is visible through a clear pipe running up the outside of this tank. This is sometimes known as the low pressure side.
The high pressure side is another pump that draws oil from the bottom of this tank where its cool and then pumps it through the filter, oil cooler and then to the main bearings, big ends, cam shafts and gearbox bearings. Its this oil when finally released from its pressure thats intended to be splashing from the end of the hollow gearbox shaft (big nut round it) in my picture above. Centrifugal force then taking it to the channels in the clutch hub where its supposed to be reaching the clutch plates to make them wet. Only just wet for most of the plates. Not at all wet for the face of the friction plate I show. Wish there was a diagram of this.

The torsion damper springs in the clutch basket or cage as BMW name it some places are definitely a weak point. The 50,000 mile clutch I re-engineered required all new springs but at least it was only half the cost of a new basket from BMW. Thing with a new basket is you have to buy new oil pump drive and a complete new set of clutch plates. BMW call this an upgrade but its the same parts with just a different coupling to the oil drive gear so everything has to be changed. Same parts that are going to go wrong just the same. Slightly less chance in some K1300 engines as they introduced a revised clutch plate which might not suffer so bad with the lack of oil splash.

The rivets in that 50,000 mile basket were in great shape. Unlike some Japanese designs where they get overloaded because of other faults in the damper.

Will soon see how this basket (cage) from the K1200R is when I get it open to measure up the insides. It feels wrong outside so expecting the worst but can be re-engineered for much less than a new one and we won't have to buy new plates or the revised oil pump drive.

Will do same as you with the cover screws. Bit of oil on each when fitted temporary for road testing. The new if the guy whose bike it is wants to splash out.

Its not a hard job to go in and change the plates. Pictures here tell nearly all the story.


I provided esponses to some of your questions in the response above:
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Old 06-18-2015, 07:28 AM
fourhundred4 fourhundred4 is offline
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Thank you for your response Bill Curlee. Worth being certain your slip was slip if you get my drift.

From the questions you have I'm thinking you've been pondering much of this for some time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Curlee
I have a question for you.. Do you think that there may be some things that WE can do to get more OIL FLOW to the clutch plates? Do some oil hole chamfering or elongating????.

First I'm going to prove the source of oil to "wet" the clutch really is out of that hole in the shaft.
Then may be extra oil fling ring on the shaft perhaps with better chamfers in the hub or even more holes in the hub to get plenty of oil where it should be.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Curlee
What IMPROVEMENTS do you do to the OEM Clutch system?? Have yo found a source for the JUDDER SPRING and damper springs?

Its a significant undertaking to re-engineer the clutch cage but I did it once and don't see why I can't repeat that again. Could be different in this next one but if required when I get the basket open it will be done. Will show you the internals then.

The clutch in this 2006 K1200R I have in the workshop just now didn't have a Judder Spring or its seat fitted. Anyone else confirm if it should or should not have one? The generic BMW parts diagram shows what could be one but only description is complete lamellar pack at $800. I suspect who ever has been into this bikes clutch before me could have left it out because it fits inside a special friction plate. The very plate position I found the most pasted up plate in. If damaged and only replacement was a used standard plate I can see why they tried without it. Would also explain the short and late bite point of the lever while riding. I note the Barnett plate kits don't appear to have the judder spring, its seat or the special friction plate to accommodate them. That's usual with after market suppliers but its often the most important parts to get things back as they should be. I'm putting a few feelers out to track some down without resorting to a complete new BMW Lamellar Pack at $800 USD or 440 GB Pounds.

Damper springs to rebuild a clutch basket should be less of a problem if required. Again I have feelers out to find a source. The New BMW clutch basket is $1,100 USD or 718 GB Pounds here. Need the new oil pump drive gear at 65 GB Pounds here to fit a new basket so all in all that's a treble ouch to the wallet.
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Old 06-19-2015, 11:02 AM
fourhundred4 fourhundred4 is offline
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

I managed to open the basket yesterday and loaded this up on YouTube. Its only done 15,000 miles. Sort of says BMW had a serious issue when this was a current bike.
http://youtu.be/uFBjE7Ttwk0

Another to follow showing the anti judder spring and the special friction plate to use on the hub. Also shows how the poor oil supply through the hub leaves the friction linings contaminated with their own dust to give the appearance of a burnt out and abused clutch. Particularly those linings against the aluminium flanges of the hub and pressure plate.
http://youtu.be/kZOvagDL7BM
http://youtu.be/kZOvagDL7BM
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Old 06-19-2015, 11:32 AM
cstumpf750 cstumpf750 is offline
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Holy Crap! You just uncovered both the source of the entering first gear from neutral clunk and the vibration these engines have. I look forward to seeing your rebuild as I have 23,000 miles on mine and the vibration is getting quite bad. On long trips it really wears you out. I wonder if we can use this info to get BMW to fix the clutch problem properly?
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Old 06-19-2015, 01:53 PM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Very informative.
I wonder how many of us have the clutch engaging close to the end of the lever travel?
The lever set at its loosest setting and still it engages too close to the end of its travel and has a short engagement. Only 1K miles on my K1300s and always been this way.
My K1200s is much better, engagement is longer and mid lever travel. K1200s has at least 100 trips down the 1/4 mile, 50K+ miles and no clutch problems.
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Old 06-19-2015, 03:12 PM
cstumpf750 cstumpf750 is offline
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

What are you planning to do about the bottom oil hole? Drill a lower one or elongate the existing hole?

Also, what is your theory on the short springs? Was it from wear or did the previous person that was in the clutch put the wrong springs in?

Finally where did you source the circular spring, shim and corresponding friction plate?
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  #43  
Old 06-19-2015, 06:53 PM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Quote:
Originally Posted by fourhundred4
I managed to open the basket yesterday and loaded this up on YouTube. Its only done 15,000 miles. Sort of says BMW had a serious issue when this was a current bike.
http://youtu.be/uFBjE7Ttwk0

Another to follow showing the anti judder spring and the special friction plate to use on the hub. Also shows how the poor oil supply through the hub leaves the friction linings contaminated with their own dust to give the appearance of a burnt out and abused clutch. Particularly those linings against the aluminium flanges of the hub and pressure plate.
http://youtu.be/kZOvagDL7BM
http://youtu.be/kZOvagDL7BM


fourhundred4

You are one intelligent and brave man. I applaud your engineering skills and ability to decipher BMW's bag of worms clutch.

I have a couple of questions:

- Where do you get replacement springs? What spring data to you have to source springs?

If the Drum to Drive gear tapper Bearing is bad,, how and where will you source that? How will you repair the taper bearing on the drive gear?

How do you re-rivet it back together?


What a piss poor clutch oiling system... Some one from BMW engineering needs to be fired.

Is there anyway that you see,, that will make oiling better? Drill the holes bigger? Add some holes? Elongate the collection area inside the hub?

I have that DEEP DOWN clutch rumble at low speeds (especially when its cold). Man,,,, I'm almost afraid to get into it. I know that I am going to see everything that you are seeing and I have even LESS mileage. SAD!!! VERY SAD!

EXCELLENT VIDEOS!!!

Thank you for sharing.

Bill
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  #44  
Old 06-20-2015, 10:17 PM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

By the way..... BILL CURLEE.....

YOU ARE MISSING THE JUMPGUARD ON THE CAM-CHAIN !!!
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Old 06-20-2015, 10:28 PM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

I dont understand your comment.. I do have the Jump Guard installed..
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Old 06-21-2015, 05:19 AM
fourhundred4 fourhundred4 is offline
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Thank you everyone for the great questions and general enthusiasm about the clutch problems. I will answer these as they are covered in the rebuild.

After thinking this through there are two distinct problem areas with the clutch in this bike. They are related because both are in the clutch and with overlapping symptoms.

The first for me is clearly the lack of oil reaching the friction plates which is causing the screech at take off and leading eventually to no drive through the clutch. Plates polluted with their own cast off friction material mixed with a little oil gives the impression of an abused overheated clutch. To me the cause is that not enough oil is reaching the friction surfaces tp keep them "washed". The great thing about modern oils is their detergent content. This encourages a washing and cleaning effect in all the important areas of the engine. Clearly the clutch friction linings and steel plates are not getting cleaned.

To this end I'm first working through the designers intended route for oil to reach those plates. I will cover the basket re-engineering issue later. Now I'm certain some oil should come down the centre of the shaft that the clutch is mounted on.
This picture is taken looking up the middle of the gearbox shaft from the right hand side of the engine. It shows a bright ring in the engine case of the very far left side of the engine. That's an oil jet fed from the main oil galleries within the cases intended to spray oil up the inside of the hollow shaft (yes that's the end led of a string of fairy lights threaded in so the camera could see). The bright spots on the wall of the shaft are water droplets. Not oil droplets. Condensation within an engine like this is common but of concern here as I know the bike was hot through when delivered here a few days ago. The oil in the shaft is not pressured once it leaves the jet. Just relies on oil volume being greater than can drain away to ensure the oil gets everywhere it should. Its common practice for the bearings and gears of this shaft to be lubricated in this fashion. Every bearing and gear on this shaft has its own little oil hole feeding from the centre out to where its required.


Here's some of the last oil feed holes for the oil pump drive gear and the centre bearing of the clutch primary gear. In this case the holes are replicated through the sleeve that the bearings run on. I say last as all the other gears on this shaft inside the cases (where I can't get) will have the same holes taking oil out before these are fed. And the oil that lubricates and washes the clutch plates is at the very end of the line so to speak.


Detail inside sleeves to ensure oil reaches where it should even if the holes don't line up.


And what oil is left is intended to run out of the end of the shaft - or so you would hope. See how long I run the oil pump and no sign of any oil at the end of the shaft. Yes the bike is on the kick stand (has no main) but would expect some oil to show by now. I estimate the pump is running as it would with the engine doing 2 to 3k rpm.
http://youtu.be/EOAt8Atvpt8





Thanks for the reminder that the cam chain guard is not fitted - owner tells me he just received his call up from BMW.
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  #47  
Old 06-21-2015, 09:37 PM
paulmogs paulmogs is offline
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Quote:
Originally Posted by fourhundred4


The high pressure side is another pump that draws oil from the bottom of this tank where its cool and then pumps it through the filter, oil cooler and then to the main bearings, big ends, cam shafts and gearbox bearings.


John, searched my Rep-Rom manual for an oil flow schematic, but was unable to find. Am not that sure if the oil filter would be a full flow; also, on other dry sump systems, have seen where they use the scavenge, (return) oil to feed the gearbox, for lubrication.
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  #48  
Old 06-22-2015, 04:11 AM
fourhundred4 fourhundred4 is offline
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Quote:
Originally Posted by paulmogs
John, searched my Rep-Rom manual for an oil flow schematic, but was unable to find. Am not that sure if the oil filter would be a full flow; also, on other dry sump systems, have seen where they use the scavenge, (return) oil to feed the gearbox, for lubrication.

I also looked. Thanks for reminder on the scavenge. Filter is the usual paper element in a canister item. There was plenty of oil going round the system. Both pumps being well fed and primed. There's also 300mm plus head of oil in the tank above pump level. Nice hot oil flow is simply not reaching the right hand end of that gearbox shaft when the bike is running. Im also thinking all traces of that water vapour would be gone if so.
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Old 06-22-2015, 07:52 PM
fourhundred4 fourhundred4 is offline
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

I had to take the bike off the kick/side stand and level it up on a workshop stand before any oil would come out of the shaft to bathe the wet clutch. The oil was then pushing the release bearing centre out rather than feeding oil to the clutch hub.
http://youtu.be/-uhwsNbMbIw
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Old 06-22-2015, 08:32 PM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

With that discovery,, what can be done to that release shaft to improve oil flow to the hub?

If you do any modifications to that shaft, will it have any adverse effects on oil flow through the rest of the engine?

Thank you again for all of your insight and clutch investigation.

Bill
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Old 06-23-2015, 04:06 PM
cstumpf750 cstumpf750 is offline
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

I just watched the most recent video for a second time and it looks like this pin that the throw out bearing is on has three flats cut into it that were intended to allow oil to get past. It seems that is not the case. So I wonder if cutting a groove into each of the flats would allow the oil past to wet the clutch plates? I don't think it will weaken the pin because all the force on it is pushing in on it, not perpendicular or shear pressure.
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Old 06-23-2015, 08:07 PM
fourhundred4 fourhundred4 is offline
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Quote:
Originally Posted by cstumpf750
I just watched the most recent video for a second time and it looks like this pin that the throw out bearing is on has three flats cut into it that were intended to allow oil to get past. It seems that is not the case. So I wonder if cutting a groove into each of the flats would allow the oil past to wet the clutch plates? I don't think it will weaken the pin because all the force on it is pushing in on it, not perpendicular or shear pressure.

Yes the three flats intended to let oil past. They were such a length that flow past them with anything other than thin and very hot oil was not going to happen. I weighed up that most of the time the oil would be 60 degrees C or less so not much thinner than the ambient air temp of the 10W/40 oil used in the videos. Important the wet clutch is always wet when ever riding so opened up the oil flow. I reduced the majority of that pins length down to just below the diameter of the flats. Then had to groove the remaining flats to have any oil flow past at ambient temp. This pin for the thrust bearing didn't have that long supporting tail in the shaft for K1200 until 03/2006. Before then it was just the middle for the bearing. The oil reaching this end of the shaft has passed all the other oil holes on its way. Its not pressurised once it leaves the jet at the other end. Relies entirely on centrifugal force and capillary action to take the oil into each gears bearing along that shaft. The largest "hole" for oil to escape from is at the left hand end by the jet in the case. That "hole" is the roller bearing balls and cage of the shafts left hand bearing. Letting more come to the right can only be good for everything on the shaft. Remember it was full of water droplets from condensation.
http://www.vstrom.info/vsri-gallery/...1/DSC09389.JPG
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  #53  
Old 06-29-2015, 12:09 PM
fourhundred4 fourhundred4 is offline
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Update on findings.

The owner collected the bike just before the weekend. First impressions on collection were that the chatter at idle was gone and the clutch lever felt much better at take off from rest.

Now after a weekends riding I just had a lengthy conversation with the owner to understand how its behaving.

The bike reported problems were -
1 - Chatter at idle in neutral with lever released.
2 - Shudder while taking off from rest.
3 - Vibration while riding - particularly harsh low down.
4 - Clutch lever hardly needs to move when changing up to make smooth changes.

1 - Chatter at idle in neutral with lever released. Now completely gone and no recurrence during the test miles. I'm confident the re-engineering of the clutch basket is entirely responsible for this.

2 - Shudder while taking off from rest. Now completely gone. Again down to the re-engineering of the clutch basket but also as result of cleaning up the gummed friction plates and their improved oil flow. This bike also had a hint of the "howling" noise mentioned by Bill Curlee. Also gone - most likely due to the cleaned up friction plates.

3 - Vibration while riding - particularly harsh low down. Still some of this there at higher rpm's when on the overrun (bike slowing as its momentum drives the engine). I doubt the source of this was anything to do with the poor condition of the clutch basket. The low down vibration - sub 2,000 rpm grinding is greatly reduced. Again down to the re-engineering of the clutch basket.

4 - Clutch lever hardly needs to move when changing up to make smooth changes. Not much has changed here after my work. Owner reports a marked improvement in clutch feel when taking off from rest but still finds the short movement of the lever from drive to no drive is leading to poor changes. Improvement taking off from rest is very likely down to the clean clutch plates and their much improved level of lubrication.

Agreed with owner to look into how the actuating mechanism might be changed to shift the bite point closer to the handle bar.

This bikes standard clutch lamellar pack did not have the later engines anti chatter spring and special plate fitted. We might try this to see how much it alters the feel of the clutch and bite point.

I have loads if pictures to load and need time to write up the detail to go with them.
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  #54  
Old 06-29-2015, 02:10 PM
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Bill Curlee Bill Curlee is offline
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

fourhundred4

I've followed this post and want to accomplish the improvements. Can you tell me where you purchased all the improvements parts:

Looking for parts , like the Clutch Drum Springs

How much did you turn that pin down to improve the oil flow??

What replacement RIVITS did you use to replace the ones that you drilled out to access the springs?

THANK YOU for all the time that you have spent on this subject!


Bill Curlee
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Old 06-30-2015, 02:16 PM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

fourhundred4 sent you a PM.
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Old 06-30-2015, 03:00 PM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Quote:
Originally Posted by cstumpf750
fourhundred4 sent you a PM.

I looked and there wasn't any PMs from him. Please try again.

Thanks

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Old 06-30-2015, 05:52 PM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Sorry, that was awkward and confusing syntax.

I should have written:

@Fouhundred4: I sent you a PM.
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Old 06-30-2015, 06:26 PM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Quote:
Originally Posted by cstumpf750
fourhundred4 sent you a PM.
I did not get one either.
I will catch flack for this but I always wonder the purpose of posting "PM'ed you". Let me run and hide now.
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Old 06-30-2015, 10:20 PM
cstumpf750 cstumpf750 is offline
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Purpose of the post is to ensure the person knows they have a PM waiting a it is entirely possible to miss the email alert, or have the alert turned off and then not notice an unread PM for a while.
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Old 07-01-2015, 01:15 PM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Allrighthy then. Thanks.
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