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  #1  
Old 06-28-2007, 03:48 PM
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High Idle: My Observations

I have been monitoring and engaging in these high idle threads at four different sites and want to share my insights. Many of us cross post on several sites.

____________________________________________________________ _____________________________

First some definitions:

High Idle Syndrome or Idle Hang:
The engine idles between approximately 1800 rpm to 3000 rpm and holds there 5 to 10 seconds after the throttle is closed. Clutched or declutched. It acts like a pinched throttle cable. It usually will idle back to 1000 after a while but it will run rough. Just barely blipping the throttle causes the engine to rev back up to 1800 to 3000 again and hang there again. This can also happen on upshifts and down shifts or steady speeds. In some cases the engine might rev up on its own!

Bucking Bronco Syndrome (BBS):
Sudden on off throttle jerkiness and speeds from 0 to 50 mph. This usually accompanies High Idle.

Stalling:
Engine stops running. Another drivability problem, may be related to the same systems causing High Idle.

Very Sensitive Throttle:
Jerking at low speeds low load conditions; city streets ,construction zones, school zones, or just trying to creep along in slow traffic. Not the same as BBS but similar. Common with 06 GT's.

____________________________________________________________ ___________________________________


After sifting through hundreds of posts on four different forums I have come up with the following general observations.


*I can identify at least 45 cases of High Idle Syndrome starting back in September of 2006.

*The problem is World Wide!!!!

*As of today I can not find any cases High Idle with the Second Generation 07 K1200GT. ECU = BMS-KP !!!!!!!!

*First Gen. 07 GT's ECU = BMS-K seem to have the most cases. Probably due to the fact that more of them were built.

*Many first Gen 07's. run perfectly.

*Most 06 GT's have the Very Sensitive Throttle and most were cured with a change in software to version 7 or 7.1. however they still can have the High Idle Syndrome before or after the upgrades.

*High Idle occurs after the engine is warmed up. High Idle can occur at ANY outside air temps.

*Mileage is not a factor. It can happen to a new bike or it might not happen for thousands of miles. It can be chronic or it may go thousands of miles between episodes ( Paroxysmal High Idle Syndrome).

*Cruise Control is not a factor. Some GT's without cruise control have High Idle Syndrome.

*High Idle is not isolated to Gt's. A few K1200S's and R's suffer from High Idle Syndrome.

____________________________________________________________ ________________________________________

The Fixes ?????

1. Airboxs along with the Idle Control Valves (ICV) have been replaced with some success. But more often than not they are accompanied with a soft ware upgrade and things stay the same or get worse!
Warped air boxes are blamed most of the time for these problems. The high idle sometimes comes back after time.
Airboxes are on back order!

******Apparently BMW is close to introducing a THIRD Airbox and a software version 9.2 to go with it. The Second Gen 07 might be out of production for now!*****

2. A Software upgrade alone will not fix it. Don't let your dealer load 9.1 into a GT unless the Air Box and ICV are also replaced.

3. Turning off the engine then turning it back on may make the High Idle go away for a while.

4. Doing a TPS reset ( disconnection of battery for a period of time then hooking it back up and twisting the throttle twice ) may cure it for a while.

5. Adjusting the throttle cables may seem to give relief but is not the cure. Also true for Very Sensitive Throttle.

6. The few who have had the ECU upgraded to BMS-KP have had excellent results and report more power! Some of these folks are doing this upgrade out of their own pocket. Thanks for your input to these forums! It will work on 06 GT's as well. This is promising!

7. One very astute mechanic in England noticed a poorly machined surface on the ICV. He was able to fettle it and apparently fix the High Idle on that bike. We don't have any Fettler's here in the USA, They retired after the industrial revolution.

8. BMW has replaced at least one GT because of High Idle. Some posters have traded their GT's for newer models.

____________________________________________________________ _______________________________________

Conclusions !!!!!

I think BMW knows they have a problem but won't admit to it but looking at the number of software upgrades since the introduction of the 05 K1200S should tell us something is up.
I believe the real fix is still in the works.

Disclaimer:
I do not know how many GT's have been produced to date nor do I know what percentage of those have High Idle Syndrome. Only BMW knows for sure.
Not all owners report good or bad experiences to a forum.
These are MY observations only.

Thanks for all of you who have posted whether good or bad.

Any comments or corrections are WELCOME.

Got to ask Dr. Greg if you would recommend a pacemaker to one of your patients if the device were manufactured by BMW or Bosch?

Norris Cooper Andover Kansas USA
06 K1200GT
93 K1100RS
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  #2  
Old 06-28-2007, 04:51 PM
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Re: High Idle: My Observations

Quote:
Originally Posted by bmwcooper
7. One very astute mechanic in England noticed a poorly machined surface on the ICV. He was able to fettle it and apparently fix the High Idle on that bike. We don't have any Fettler's here in the USA, They retired after the industrial revolution.

Fettle this!

I don't want to plow over this another time, as I have posted here and on XPLOR, but in sum: My early 07 had a terribly snatchy throttle that was ruining my driveline and my patience. Now I know why 06 demos had all that driveline lash when you let off the throttle. It was like an on/of switch, and you couldn't shift smoothly at anything under 4000 rpm.

My high-idle problem was most pronounced on half-choke. That is, when fired cold, it was high, but OK high. When shut off and restarted a few minutes later, HANG ON! One had to feather the heck out of the clutch to avoid being launched.

BTW, I was averaging 48+ MPG.

New ECU and 9.1 installed, all throtle issues resolved; I can shift in front of friends in town and mileage has slipped <10%, so I am pleased. Now, if I could only get the ASC enabling software installed and my Corbin saddle here, I'd be VERY happy.
Ray
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  #3  
Old 06-28-2007, 05:00 PM
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Re: High Idle: My Observations

Nice summary. Very nice indeed.
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Old 06-28-2007, 05:02 PM
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Re: High Idle: My Observations

Quote:
Originally Posted by bmwcooper
Got to ask Dr. Greg if you would recommend a pacemaker to one of your patients if the device were manufactured by BMW or Bosch?

Well, I wonder if you would recommend a motorcycle that was made by a pacemaker manufacturer??
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No more "Vancouver.... the Blond Bimbo of Cities" for me
.... moved to Kelowna BC in the beautiful wine country of the Okanagan Valley.

- '08 K1200GT, metallic charcoal/silver
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  #5  
Old 06-28-2007, 05:06 PM
DanGreene DanGreene is offline
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Re: High Idle: My Observations

BMW has had fuel mapping issues for decades now. It puzzles me why they cannot figure this out.
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  #6  
Old 06-28-2007, 05:24 PM
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Re: High Idle: My Observations

Your observations are spot on, at least for my bike.
Very early 06, came with BBS. Cured by 7.0 at the 6K service, but left with high idle and hesitation. I still have the original air-box (new one ordered) and have 9.1 software. With 9.1 I seem to have more power and no hesitation, but still have an occasional high idle.
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Old 06-28-2007, 05:26 PM
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Re: High Idle: My Observations

One note.

People are singing the praise of the new ECU. It could be the software that fixes the problem, and that for whatever reason the software was never certified on the older ECU. BMW may have a later revision of the software that is compatible with Both ECU's eliminating the problem for old and new bikes.

As a software developer I have seen this happen in the past where software for a particular configuration makes its way to an older configuration with less thatn stellar results, only later to be retrofitted to all deployed hardware configurations.

It also could be the case that older ECU's are now orphaned beyond 8.X.......

I guess only time will tell....
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Old 06-28-2007, 05:30 PM
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Re: High Idle: My Observations

10000000% correct observations from MY standpoint
that IDLE "HANG" issue..... even more spot on

i appreciate this thread
please send a copy of it to EVERY HUMAN WHO WORKS FOR BMW MOTORRAD

every single one of them
for the few who don't know anything about it, and the others who continue deny any problem exists
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2007 K1200GT
2011 R1200GS Adventure (now a SIDECAR RIG by DMC)

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but take your family and friends along for the "ride"
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  #9  
Old 06-28-2007, 06:17 PM
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Re: High Idle: My Observations

Quote:
Originally Posted by Billg
Your observations are spot on, at least for my bike.
Very early 06, came with BBS. Cured by 7.0 at the 6K service, but left with high idle and hesitation. I still have the original air-box (new one ordered) and have 9.1 software. With 9.1 I seem to have more power and no hesitation, but still have an occasional high idle.

What did the 9.1 do to your fuel consumption?

Norris Cooper Andover Kansas USA
06 K1200GT
93 K1100RS
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  #10  
Old 06-28-2007, 06:23 PM
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Re: High Idle: My Observations

Quote:
Originally Posted by bmwcooper
What did the 9.1 do to your fuel consumption?

Norris Cooper Andover Kansas USA
06 K1200GT
93 K1100RS
Same or maybe a little better
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Old 06-28-2007, 10:56 PM
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Re: High Idle: My Observations

I CAN fettle !

Realy i can
in fact if BMW would hire me.... I could fix these bikes....thats just what I do....talent on loan from God
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  #12  
Old 06-29-2007, 12:13 AM
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Twitchy throttle, bucking, etc.: For Newbie's Only

I'm a newbie who had never rode a motorcycle until last June, when I began riding a used, mint-condition, 2002 Honda CB 750 (what a great learner bike!) after I passed the MSF's Basic Rider Course. Over the ensuing 5 months, I managed to log nearly 5000 miles on the Honda without any mishaps, including ~2500 miles of 2-up riding with my girfriend, who's as light as a feather even with full protective gear. ("ATGATT" is one of my safety mantras. Also, I added a Corbin "Gunslinger" saddle with a backrest before she ever got on the back of the Honda.)

Anyhow, well before I ever attempted carefully riding 2-up last season, I quickly discovered the flaws and limitations of the CB750, which is a naked cruiser. As time passed, my learning curve, riding skills, and self-confidence were growing in a very positive manner, and I soon felt that I was probably ready to take on a bigger and more capable motorcycle.

So, last fall I made an admittedly bold decision to custom-order a 2007 K12GT. Needless to say, going from a Honda CB750 to a 2007 GT was a bit of a leap for a newbie, but after carefully looking at my options among the limited "intermediate" choices, I came to the conclusion that transitioning from the 470 lb. Honda to the 625 lb., state-of-the-art GT was likely to be my wisest choice. That said, I was very aware of the fact that I was taking a big step, and that I would have my work cut out for me once the new GT was in my possession.

My '07 GT went into factory production in 2/07, and I didn't receive it until early April. By then, my Honda had been sold, and the new GT was my only ride. After painstakingly reading and re-reading the GT's manual and familiarizing myself with the bike as much as I could while it sat in my garage, a weekend soon came along in which the weather was fine, and I was in the right frame of mind and physical conditioning to finally mount the bike and ride her.

So, I suited-up on that fine Saturday morning last April and rode my new GT for the first time. Instead of just dipping my toes into the water by taking only a brief, first ride around town, the bike felt so good that without hesitation I headed for the twisties of Ohio's fabled Hocking Hills region. I had so much fun riding my GT for the first time that day, but I noticed that the throttle was rather twitchy and unforgiving at times, particularly in 2nd gear.

OK, at this point you're undoubtedly wondering what my point is here. Well, first of all, according to my dealer's service mgr., my 2007 GT has the latest ECU as well as the 9.1 software. While the throttle seemed a bit twitchy at times, even on the first ride I was fortunately able to begin figuring out how to smoothly control and finesse (carress!) the throttle.

Please know that I'm not in any way suggesting that there haven't been real problems with past iterations of the GT's fuel "mapping", programming, and performance of it's fuel injection system. Rather, what I'm suggesting is that at least so far as my GT is concerned, I've found that the apparent problems of a twitchy throttle and "bucking" have progressively diminished and downright vanished as my throttle-skills and gear-shifting skills have adapted and improved.

At least with my GT, what I've found is that there's a huge difference in throttle and engine braking as I've transitioned from the CB750 to the GT. The Honda is a 4-cylinder, carburated, chain-driven bike (with cushioning, rubber-like O-rings throughout the chain), and all of these combine to make the Honda very smooth and forgiving, even when abruptly rolling off the throttle. In stark contrast, the GT seems to be the polar opposite. It's precisely controlled fuel-injected, 4-cylinder, high-compression engine (together with it's robust shaft-drive) doesn't react well to unsmooth throttle inputs; there's no mechanical buffer or cushion to absorb and smooth out any unsmooth inputs on the part of the rider.

I've now owned my '07 GT for almost 3 months and 4500 miles, and I will say that it's throttle seemed to have a "hair-trigger" (mostly in 2nd gear) until my brain and my right wrist learned to gently finesse and control the throttle. During this learning curve, as I was figuring out that the key rested in my right wrist, at first I found that at the end of a ride, my right wrist was really aching because I was putting so much neuromuscular "tension" into that joint. But, as I continued to hang in there and became more familiar with the throttle, I found that my right wrist (as well as my entire body) were becoming ever more relaxed, while still retaining and refining smooth throttle inputs.

My own conclusion (at least with my GT) is that my perceived "problem" with the throttle has in fact been due far more to my right wrist, rather than being due to an inherent problem wth the bike. Then again, I'm just a newbie, so maybe I'm just full of beans.

If you think I may be onto something here, that's great. If for now you find that your GT seems to lurch and buck when riding slowly in 2nd gear, here's a learning tip that my dealer's service mgr. taught me: Instead of first trying to master smooth riding at slow speeds in 2nd gear, simply shift into 3rd gear, and notice how much smoother things are. The bike's engine is so strong that you'll be hard pressed to lug it or hurt it, but this trick will help one to learn to soon learn to ride the bike just as smoothly in 2nd or even 1st gear at very low speeds, as one gains more confidence and finesse in the right wrist .
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Old 06-29-2007, 08:12 AM
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Re: Twitchy throttle, bucking, etc.: For Newbie's Only

Quote:
Originally Posted by kurtk12gt
I'm a newbie who had never rode a motorcycle until last June, when I began riding a used, mint-condition, 2002 Honda CB 750 (what a great learner bike!) after I passed the MSF's Basic Rider Course. I had so much fun riding my GT for the first time that day, but I noticed that the throttle was rather twitchy and unforgiving at times, particularly in 2nd gear.

OK, at this point you're undoubtedly wondering what my point is here. Well, first of all, according to my dealer's service mgr., my 2007 GT has the latest ECU as well as the 9.1 software. While the throttle seemed a bit twitchy at times, even on the first ride I was fortunately able to begin figuring out how to smoothly control and finesse (carress!) the throttle.

At least with my GT, what I've found is that there's a huge difference in throttle and engine braking as I've transitioned from the CB750 to the GT. It's precisely controlled fuel-injected, 4-cylinder, high-compression engine (together with it's robust shaft-drive) doesn't react well to unsmooth throttle inputs; there's no mechanical buffer or cushion to absorb and smooth out any unsmooth inputs on the part of the rider.

I've now owned my '07 GT for almost 3 months and 4500 miles, and I will say that it's throttle seemed to have a "hair-trigger" (mostly in 2nd gear) until my brain and my right wrist learned to gently finesse and control the throttle. During this learning curve, as I was figuring out that the key rested in my right wrist, at first I found that at the end of a ride, my right wrist was really aching because I was putting so much neuromuscular "tension" into that joint. But, as I continued to hang in there and became more familiar with the throttle, I found that my right wrist (as well as my entire body) were becoming ever more relaxed, while still retaining and refining smooth throttle inputs.

My own conclusion (at least with my GT) is that my perceived "problem" with the throttle has in fact been due far more to my right wrist, rather than being due to an inherent problem wth the bike. Then again, I'm just a newbie, so maybe I'm just full of beans.

If you think I may be onto something here, that's great. If for now you find that your GT seems to lurch and buck when riding slowly in 2nd gear, here's a learning tip that my dealer's service mgr. taught me: Instead of first trying to master smooth riding at slow speeds in 2nd gear, simply shift into 3rd gear, and notice how much smoother things are. The bike's engine is so strong that you'll be hard pressed to lug it or hurt it, but this trick will help one to learn to soon learn to ride the bike just as smoothly in 2nd or even 1st gear at very low speeds, as one gains more confidence and finesse in the right wrist .

It would be interesting for you to test ride an 06 GT with orginial software 5.8 or 6 to compare it to your ride. 7.01 & 7.1 address most of the slow speed throttle issues ( not the high idle ). I have over 600,000 miles of riding experience, over 400,000 of those on fuel injected BMW k-bikes.

Norris Cooper Andover Kansas USA
93 K1100RS
06 K1200GT
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  #14  
Old 06-29-2007, 08:47 AM
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Re: Twitchy throttle, bucking, etc.: For Newbie's Only

Quote:
Originally Posted by kurtk12gt
I'm a newbie who had never rode a motorcycle until last June, when I began riding a used, mint-condition, 2002 Honda CB 750 (what a great learner bike!) after I passed the MSF's Basic Rider Course. Over the ensuing 5 months, I managed to log nearly 5000 miles on the Honda without any mishaps, including ~2500 miles of 2-up riding with my girfriend, who's as light as a feather even with full protective gear. ("ATGATT" is one of my safety mantras. Also, I added a Corbin "Gunslinger" saddle with a backrest before she ever got on the back of the Honda.)

Anyhow, well before I ever attempted carefully riding 2-up last season, I quickly discovered the flaws and limitations of the CB750, which is a naked cruiser. As time passed, my learning curve, riding skills, and self-confidence were growing in a very positive manner, and I soon felt that I was probably ready to take on a bigger and more capable motorcycle.

So, last fall I made an admittedly bold decision to custom-order a 2007 K12GT. Needless to say, going from a Honda CB750 to a 2007 GT was a bit of a leap for a newbie, but after carefully looking at my options among the limited "intermediate" choices, I came to the conclusion that transitioning from the 470 lb. Honda to the 625 lb., state-of-the-art GT was likely to be my wisest choice. That said, I was very aware of the fact that I was taking a big step, and that I would have my work cut out for me once the new GT was in my possession.

My '07 GT went into factory production in 2/07, and I didn't receive it until early April. By then, my Honda had been sold, and the new GT was my only ride. After painstakingly reading and re-reading the GT's manual and familiarizing myself with the bike as much as I could while it sat in my garage, a weekend soon came along in which the weather was fine, and I was in the right frame of mind and physical conditioning to finally mount the bike and ride her.

So, I suited-up on that fine Saturday morning last April and rode my new GT for the first time. Instead of just dipping my toes into the water by taking only a brief, first ride around town, the bike felt so good that without hesitation I headed for the twisties of Ohio's fabled Hocking Hills region. I had so much fun riding my GT for the first time that day, but I noticed that the throttle was rather twitchy and unforgiving at times, particularly in 2nd gear.

OK, at this point you're undoubtedly wondering what my point is here. Well, first of all, according to my dealer's service mgr., my 2007 GT has the latest ECU as well as the 9.1 software. While the throttle seemed a bit twitchy at times, even on the first ride I was fortunately able to begin figuring out how to smoothly control and finesse (carress!) the throttle.

Please know that I'm not in any way suggesting that there haven't been real problems with past iterations of the GT's fuel "mapping", programming, and performance of it's fuel injection system. Rather, what I'm suggesting is that at least so far as my GT is concerned, I've found that the apparent problems of a twitchy throttle and "bucking" have progressively diminished and downright vanished as my throttle-skills and gear-shifting skills have adapted and improved.

At least with my GT, what I've found is that there's a huge difference in throttle and engine braking as I've transitioned from the CB750 to the GT. The Honda is a 4-cylinder, carburated, chain-driven bike (with cushioning, rubber-like O-rings throughout the chain), and all of these combine to make the Honda very smooth and forgiving, even when abruptly rolling off the throttle. In stark contrast, the GT seems to be the polar opposite. It's precisely controlled fuel-injected, 4-cylinder, high-compression engine (together with it's robust shaft-drive) doesn't react well to unsmooth throttle inputs; there's no mechanical buffer or cushion to absorb and smooth out any unsmooth inputs on the part of the rider.

I've now owned my '07 GT for almost 3 months and 4500 miles, and I will say that it's throttle seemed to have a "hair-trigger" (mostly in 2nd gear) until my brain and my right wrist learned to gently finesse and control the throttle. During this learning curve, as I was figuring out that the key rested in my right wrist, at first I found that at the end of a ride, my right wrist was really aching because I was putting so much neuromuscular "tension" into that joint. But, as I continued to hang in there and became more familiar with the throttle, I found that my right wrist (as well as my entire body) were becoming ever more relaxed, while still retaining and refining smooth throttle inputs.

My own conclusion (at least with my GT) is that my perceived "problem" with the throttle has in fact been due far more to my right wrist, rather than being due to an inherent problem wth the bike. Then again, I'm just a newbie, so maybe I'm just full of beans.

If you think I may be onto something here, that's great. If for now you find that your GT seems to lurch and buck when riding slowly in 2nd gear, here's a learning tip that my dealer's service mgr. taught me: Instead of first trying to master smooth riding at slow speeds in 2nd gear, simply shift into 3rd gear, and notice how much smoother things are. The bike's engine is so strong that you'll be hard pressed to lug it or hurt it, but this trick will help one to learn to soon learn to ride the bike just as smoothly in 2nd or even 1st gear at very low speeds, as one gains more confidence and finesse in the right wrist .


i appreciate your post
and i'm glad that your bike has been fine

however.....
i've ridden 250K miles in my life.... all but 20K on BMWs
and..... for the record..... idling at 3,000 ISN'T normal
and the RIGHT WRIST had NOTHING to do with that

my point:

1. no offense intended to you
2. YOUR bike is fine
3. my bike.... and MANY, MANY more were/are not

again.....
thanks for your post
__________________
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Clearwater, FL USA

2007 K1200GT
2011 R1200GS Adventure (now a SIDECAR RIG by DMC)

live like you mean it...
but take your family and friends along for the "ride"
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  #15  
Old 06-29-2007, 09:31 AM
darkarcher darkarcher is offline
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Re: High Idle: My Observations

I have to agree with Greg. The right wrist has nothing to do with the problems we observed. You obviously haven't had the problems we have encountered or you wouldn't have made the comments. This IS a real issue and it is very dangerous. I feel that mine is fixed now but when you spend the money we spent on what is supposed to be one of the best bikes around you expect a little more. At least I do.
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Old 06-29-2007, 10:28 AM
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Re: High Idle: My Observations

kurtk12gt, You wrote that your dealer told you you have the latest ECU. Have you removed the seat to verify your ECU says BMS-KP and not just BMS-K? I also agree it is not the throttle hand causing the problems a lot of us have and have had.
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Old 06-29-2007, 12:27 PM
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Re: Twitchy throttle, bucking, etc.: For Newbie's Only

Quote:
Originally Posted by kurtk12gt
My own conclusion (at least with my GT) is that my perceived "problem" with the throttle has in fact been due far more to my right wrist, rather than being due to an inherent problem wth the bike. Then again, I'm just a newbie, so maybe I'm just full of beans.

If you think I may be onto something here, that's great. If for now you find that your GT seems to lurch and buck when riding slowly in 2nd gear, here's a learning tip that my dealer's service mgr. taught me: Instead of first trying to master smooth riding at slow speeds in 2nd gear, simply shift into 3rd gear, .

First, welcome to BMW, you said a mouthful when you said it was quite a leap from the Honda. All I can say is "Oh yeah?"

I came from a Moto Guzzi 1000 SP III that I bought as my first new bike back in 94. Guzzis are famous for two things: Cast iron throttle-return springs and 5000 lb cast iron flywheels. You haven't experienced a Guzzi until you stand over one and, well, attempt to "blip" the throttle. Two things happen: your wrist says "What the hell was that?" and the inside of your right thigh yells up to your wrist "Knock it off, you're bruising me." I don't say this in a one-upsmanship spirit; rather to try to express the altitude of my learning curve with my early production 07 GT.

Initially, I raised these issues with my service manager, and others here, and got the answer to try revving higher before shifting. It's true that it does shift smoother when you spin up to 4000rpm, but, that isn't doable around town in even modest traffic.

Fast forward: I now have about 350 miles on the new ECU and software (no ASC activation yet), and have noticed a BIG improvement. Considering I went the first 4000 miles on the old, I know of what I speak. But even with the new versions, there is still a fuel shut-off effect that can certainly be advantageous if you get yourself into a corner that braking would really complicate; and I'm glad it is still there. But thankfully, it is no where near as dramatic as it used to be. My mileage has gone down to below 48 from 49+, but that's fine. What I REALLY appreciate is the relief to the driveline.

Every 06 demo K12 model I rode had developed a very sloppy driveline lash over its several-thousand-mile life. I was astonished at this and commented to my salesman about the lash. He said it was "normal"--and it almost killed the sale for me. So, when I rode my brand new one off the lot, I held my breath and was relieved to feel that there was no lash. But it only took me a few miles to figure out what was driving the on-off slack--it was the on-off throttle.

So, I was eager to get the new brain and am now convinced that it will dramatically slow the development of driveline lash. In fact, I figure the new brain will do a lot more to protect it than my on-the-job-training for my wrist after 14 years on a Guzzi. Capiche?

Just think of the number of people out there who can only dream to have such "training!" Have fun.
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Old 06-29-2007, 03:02 PM
Miles_Miller Miles_Miller is offline
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Re: High Idle: My Observations

We seem to have two threads going here. First, Norris, that was a hell of a lot of work compiling the statistical information and detailed analysis in your first post. It's probably the most important and succinct accounting - and history - of these issues we've ever seen on this board. In fact, the word we use to welcome a rider with a new GT - congratulations - is in order, imo.

I agree with Greg; it might be very helpful for you to put your post into the form of an e-mail and send it to BMW - NA. You probably won't get a response, but you should know they will read this. And most importantly, the history of these problems and their haphazard approach to resolving them will be demonstrated beyond any doubt that everyone on this board is also aware of the chronology of difficulties in sorting out our GTs.

And, now to the 2nd thread we see here. Kurt. Bless you; you have just confirmed what Norris and all the others who have Mk II, BMS-KP GTs have experienced - a refined, well running machine.

As one of those plauged with an early '07 with the old ecu (and now with the new ecu) , I can and will forcefully tell you that the abrupt, sticking throttle is a completely different and aggravating experience compared with not knowing how to handle a 150 hp super sport tourer. The difference now is a smooth throttle that's attached to a high torque motorcycle where it's just a matter of the correct riding technique.

And Howfly, if you're reading this - yes it still takes a second or two (but not 4 or 5 seconds) for the idle to settle at 1100 rpm. Especially noticeable when first starting the bike, when it hits 1500 and then comes gradually back to 1100 rpm. Compare that to my '05 K-S with a very early engine mgt. software where the bike instantly goes to 1100 rpm when it first starts. The difference is that the '05 K-S might take two starts when it's cold, the GT starts everytime on the first push of the start button.

Miles
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Old 06-30-2007, 02:40 AM
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Re: High Idle: My Observations

Norris,

Excellent compilation of data. Are all cattle ranchers as thorough as you?

Thanks,

JS
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Old 06-30-2007, 04:50 PM
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Re: High Idle: My Observations

Please, what does ECU stand for? It sounds as though they can be changed?
Is 9.1 the latest software? Nothing more been developed yet?

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Old 06-30-2007, 05:30 PM
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Re: High Idle: My Observations

Hi JayBee,

Your question prompts another plea for a collective glossary of BMW terms. Maybe a "sticky" somewhere?

Sticky - A note on an Internet forum that stays in a prime position within the Forum's line-up of entries (posts).

ECU - Electronic Control Unit - Manages engine fueling, timing, and a variety of other settings.

TPM - Tire Pressure Monitor - Monitors tire pressure

ASC - Automatic Stability Control - Anti skid monitoring and control

RP - Royal Purple - An oil manufacturer that sells Royal Purple synthetic oil

ATGATT - All The Gear, All The Time - A safety refrain sometimes espoused while the ATGATT adopter is comfortably encased in leather, Kevlar and fiberglass safety materials.

Have a wonderful 4th of July celebration!

JS
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Old 06-30-2007, 10:45 PM
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Re: High Idle: My Observations

VERY VERY good info here....thx one and all

sure makes owning this new-fangled machine less ethereal
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Old 07-01-2007, 09:38 PM
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Re: High Idle: My Observations

Quote:
Originally Posted by Miles_Miller
We seem to have two threads going here. First, Norris, that was a hell of a lot of work compiling the statistical information and detailed analysis in your first post. It's probably the most important and succinct accounting - and history - of these issues we've ever seen on this board. In fact, the word we use to welcome a rider with a new GT - congratulations - is in order, imo.

I agree with Greg; it might be very helpful for you to put your post into the form of an e-mail and send it to BMW - NA. You probably won't get a response, but you should know they will read this. And most importantly, the history of these problems and their haphazard approach to resolving them will be demonstrated beyond any doubt that everyone on this board is also aware of the chronology of difficulties in sorting out our GTs.

And, now to the 2nd thread we see here. Kurt. Bless you; you have just confirmed what Norris and all the others who have Mk II, BMS-KP GTs have experienced - a refined, well running machine.

As one of those plauged with an early '07 with the old ecu (and now with the new ecu) , I can and will forcefully tell you that the abrupt, sticking throttle is a completely different and aggravating experience compared with not knowing how to handle a 150 hp super sport tourer. The difference now is a smooth throttle that's attached to a high torque motorcycle where it's just a matter of the correct riding technique.

And Howfly, if you're reading this - yes it still takes a second or two (but not 4 or 5 seconds) for the idle to settle at 1100 rpm. Especially noticeable when first starting the bike, when it hits 1500 and then comes gradually back to 1100 rpm. Compare that to my '05 K-S with a very early engine mgt. software where the bike instantly goes to 1100 rpm when it first starts. The difference is that the '05 K-S might take two starts when it's cold, the GT starts everytime on the first push of the start button.

Miles

Miles - am still reading this. Since my 2 instances of hanging throttle - and it was a true hang (2k steady for about 3-4 secs.), I performed 3 TPS resets. I only intended to do 1, but thought I should discharge overnight, because my first one didn't smooth the bike up when hot. I blew the 2nd because I got caught up in listening to the noises with the engine off and ignition on as I was opening and closing the throttle. Bike now seems perfect after the last reset, although only have about 100 miles on her since reset.

I'm being very picky. Even with the hangs, the new ECU has made all the difference for me. I'm a compulsive engineer, so I want to (no must) find whatever it is. Have purchased service manual, and have appointment to go over the thoery of operation with my dealer, with the idea that I can get involved in debugging this. Working on the theory that the TPS is not temperature compensated, which is probably a bad thing with all the tupperware on our version of this chassis.

Norris - this is a great compilation. I 2nd the motion to send it to BMW. It can only help.
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Old 07-01-2007, 10:57 PM
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Re: Twitchy throttle, bucking, etc.: For Newbie's Only

Quote:
Originally Posted by BUMWA
First, welcome to BMW, you said a mouthful when you said it was quite a leap from the Honda. All I can say is "Oh yeah?"

I came from a Moto Guzzi 1000 SP III that I bought as my first new bike back in 94. Guzzis are famous for two things: Cast iron throttle-return springs and 5000 lb cast iron flywheels. You haven't experienced a Guzzi until you stand over one and, well, attempt to "blip" the throttle. Two things happen: your wrist says "What the hell was that?" and the inside of your right thigh yells up to your wrist "Knock it off, you're bruising me." I don't say this in a one-upsmanship spirit; rather to try to express the altitude of my learning curve with my early production 07 GT.

Initially, I raised these issues with my service manager, and others here, and got the answer to try revving higher before shifting. It's true that it does shift smoother when you spin up to 4000rpm, but, that isn't doable around town in even modest traffic.

Fast forward: I now have about 350 miles on the new ECU and software (no ASC activation yet), and have noticed a BIG improvement. Considering I went the first 4000 miles on the old, I know of what I speak. But even with the new versions, there is still a fuel shut-off effect that can certainly be advantageous if you get yourself into a corner that braking would really complicate; and I'm glad it is still there. But thankfully, it is no where near as dramatic as it used to be. My mileage has gone down to below 48 from 49+, but that's fine. What I REALLY appreciate is the relief to the driveline.

Every 06 demo K12 model I rode had developed a very sloppy driveline lash over its several-thousand-mile life. I was astonished at this and commented to my salesman about the lash. He said it was "normal"--and it almost killed the sale for me. So, when I rode my brand new one off the lot, I held my breath and was relieved to feel that there was no lash. But it only took me a few miles to figure out what was driving the on-off slack--it was the on-off throttle.

So, I was eager to get the new brain and am now convinced that it will dramatically slow the development of driveline lash. In fact, I figure the new brain will do a lot more to protect it than my on-the-job-training for my wrist after 14 years on a Guzzi. Capiche?

Just think of the number of people out there who can only dream to have such "training!" Have fun.

So is it possible that the "drive-line lash could have stripped the splines on the rear disc brake of my 06 GT? This would explain what happened to my GT and consequently had the entire rear drive replaced. I am now with 9.1 , a huge improvement, but at 300 miles again experienced the throttle hang at around 2200 rpm for 3 - 5 seconds. I noticed it especially between shifts and trying to slow down for a red light. I have the orignal BSMK 7 Engine Contro Unit. any thoughts? - Perry
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Old 07-02-2007, 08:29 AM
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Re: High Idle: My Observations

At the risk of sounding stupid...What are you guys referring to as "drive-line lash"?What is "lashing" What does it sound like, what does it feel like? What is the cause?

thanks
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Old 07-02-2007, 09:34 AM
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Re: High Idle: My Observations

Try this...

Gear Lash - The "slop" or "play" in the coupling between gears. Too little lash (too loosely coupled) could cause power to be transmitted in a jerky, seemingly delayed fashion. Too much lash (too tightly coupled) could cause binding, thereby creating friction and its close friend, heat.

JS
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Old 07-02-2007, 06:44 PM
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Re: High Idle: My Observations

With lash, when you lift off the throttle, there is a noticeable milisecond delay in uptake and a clunk and vice versa. I have no idea about rear brake issues, but for years, BMW cars used a rubber donut in the driveline (back between the drive shaft and the rear axle) to absorb this kind of torque clunk.

With 13:1 compression, this is not a surprising issue. What is surprising is that only a few have mentioned it in relation to the snatchy throttle. I was appalled by it on 06 demos with miles on them. The new software seems to let more fuel through on deceleration (engine burbles a bit), thus cushioning the on/off action of the throttle. But I am still getting used to it.
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Old 07-03-2007, 07:59 AM
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Re: High Idle: My Observations

Thanks for the reply. I have 700 miles on my new BMSK 2007 GT. It's my 4th BMW M/C. I've had an R1150R, R1150RT, and a K1200RS. I don't have any of the high idle problems. The engine braking is very pronounced, but I find it useful for street riding. The throttle could be deemed "snatchey", but mine isn't that bad. After reading everything on this forum I find myself searching for problems. I have whatever version software that came stock on th bike. I am wary of upgrading it when I go in for the first service for fear of ending up worse off. I think I'll just play it safe for now and hope that if I develop any of these problems they will be readily apparent.
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Old 07-03-2007, 08:24 AM
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Re: High Idle: My Observations

Quote:
Originally Posted by papeon
Thanks for the reply. I have 700 miles on my new BMSK 2007 GT. It's my 4th BMW M/C. I've had an R1150R, R1150RT, and a K1200RS. I don't have any of the high idle problems. The engine braking is very pronounced, but I find it useful for street riding. The throttle could be deemed "snatchey", but mine isn't that bad. After reading everything on this forum I find myself searching for problems. I have whatever version software that came stock on th bike. I am wary of upgrading it when I go in for the first service for fear of ending up worse off. I think I'll just play it safe for now and hope that if I develop any of these problems they will be readily apparent.

i concur
do NOT have your software upgraded.... please
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Old 07-03-2007, 10:38 AM
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Re: High Idle: My Observations

Greg is correct PAPEON! My New 07 GT sounds like, it runs like yours. Just ride it!
ANd be sure to change FD oil as close to 600 miles as possible and again at 3,000 to 4000 miles...to establish any trends ( good or bad)
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Old 07-03-2007, 10:46 AM
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Re: High Idle: My Observations

I'm in the same situation - my Mark I 2007 GT only has a slight mid-range (3K-4K RPM) flat spot in the fueling map but otherwise is problem-free. I wouldn't consider a software upgrade in my existing BMS-K ECU. On the other hand, I'm working through my dealer for an ASC retrofit wherein the ECU will be upgraded to the BMS-KP configuration which should take care of the flat spot problem as well.

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Old 07-03-2007, 11:02 AM
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Re: High Idle: My Observations

Quote:
Originally Posted by RustyJC
I'm in the same situation - my Mark I 2007 GT only has a slight mid-range (3K-4K RPM) flat spot in the fueling map but otherwise is problem-free. I wouldn't consider a software upgrade in my existing BMS-K ECU. On the other hand, I'm working through my dealer for an ASC retrofit wherein the ECU will be upgraded to the BMS-KP configuration which should take care of the flat spot problem as well.

Rusty

you are 100% correct about what you are doing
please keep us informed as to the progress of your request

my bike is INCREDIBLE after "THAT" fix
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Old 07-03-2007, 11:06 AM
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Re: High Idle: My Observations

All of the problems I have been reading about has been a real bummer for you new owners and potential owners. I was considering a new 07/08 GT. I love my current BMW's, but am looking for a 2 up sport-tourer.
Checked out the other brands, the Honda ST1300, and the Yamaha FJR. Both fine motorcycles. However, the Honda is a chunky monkey with a poor lean angle (scrapped my boot three times) and a good friend just traded his 07 FJR for his second ST because of serious throttle issues at altitude that Yamaha has no idea how to fix. Can't blame him.
There is no perfect motorcycle and there never will be. It would seem that all of the electronics are a double-edged sword.

So, I am now considering the new Kawasaki Concours 14. Yes, it's not a BMW, but I love the look and hope that the electronics are better than BMW's. BTW, it's also 6K less than the GT and still has ABS. Greg, I know it doesn't have cruise, but neither does my K1200S! It also has a much wider and stronger dealer network that happens to be much less than 2 hours from my residence.

Best of luck to you with problems. It's going to take time. Large companies don't respond (or admit) very quickly. "I feel you." That's why ya gotta have more than one motor (at least that's what I tell my wife).

Motorman
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  #34  
Old 07-03-2007, 11:17 AM
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Re: High Idle: My Observations

That's certainly your choice, but as my Mark I K12GT sits today, it's far and away the best bike I've ever owned. I don't regret trading my 2003 K12GT for it at all and can't wipe the grin off my face every time I ride it.

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Old 07-03-2007, 11:56 AM
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Re: High Idle: My Observations

*As of today I can not find any cases High Idle with the Second Generation 07 K1200GT. ECU = BMS-KP !!!!!!!!
Well so much for that statement!

Mark and Chuck,
You didn't ruin my party. Exchange of information is what this forum is all about.
I appreciate all input. My goal in this thread is to bring together everything known about this High Idle problem.

A friend of mine who is a BMW Automobile Service Manager (yes they do manufacture cars! ) told me the number one problem with their new cars is software updates!!! They update date the transmission and the radio and gps quits working! Three days later they another update arrives. Sounds like BMW software writers are busy these days!

Given enough time and input BMW will fix this problem but in the short run it makes thier product look bad.
Like my Dad said, "You can do all the testing you want but the REAL TEST is when it gets in the hands of the public."

Norris Cooper Andover Kansas USA
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93 K1100RS



Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast2UP
I hate to ruin the party but my 07 GT purchased 03/18/07 with ASC and the new ECU has done the "high" idle stick at least ten or more times. My wife and I just returned from a quick overnight trip and on the way home my bike exhibited erratic throttle response and idled at 2800 until I blipped the throttle. Idle then resumed its normal 1000 +-
We were on a two lane road, no cruise control used, ambient temps 80-85.

Mileage 4700

I love the bike and my wife thinks its the best two up bike we have ever had. I am learning to drive around its idiosyncracies but will be greatly relieved when BMW sorts this one out.

Mark in Chico
07 KGT Graphite



Quote:
Originally Posted by chuckwilmot
Ditto ref new GTs... My son bought his a couple of months ago from a major dealer, and it has the new ECU. Within the first 600 miles he had the high idle. He brought it back to the dealer and they told him the only thing they did to fix it was a software upgrade. So far, it seems to be fixed.
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Old 07-03-2007, 12:20 PM
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Re: High Idle: My Observations

I have no doubts that the high idle problem has its roots somewhere other than the ECU. From a 30,000 foot overview, if the TPS is signaling the ECU that the throttle is at idle position, then the ECU should be telling the stepper motor to hold idle at 1,050 RPM. In such a case, if the idle is higher, then it's because the stepper motor cannot move to the correct position, or air is being admitted to the engine outside the control of the stepper motor system (i.e., air leaks). In either case, if the fueling isn't correct for the amount of air being admitted, rough, erratic idling and/or stalling could easily result.

Other than the TPS sensor sending the wrong throttle position signal to the ECU, however, I really struggle to see how the ECU itself could be the root cause for the high idle problem unless the software is totally hosed, and even then why would it work OK (like in my bike) for thousands of miles then suddenly go tango uniform?? The high/stuck idle problem sounds more like a mechanical malfunction to me.

The lean spot in the fueling map that I'm experiencing, however, is 100% consistent which would indicate that the ECU software could easily be the culprit.

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Old 07-03-2007, 02:10 PM
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Re: High Idle: My Observations

Quote:
Originally Posted by RustyJC

Other than the TPS sensor sending the wrong throttle position signal to the ECU, however, I really struggle to see how the ECU itself could be the root cause for the high idle problem unless the software is totally hosed, and even then why would it work OK (like in my bike) for thousands of miles then suddenly go tango uniform?? The high/stuck idle problem sounds more like a mechanical malfunction to me.

The lean spot in the fueling map that I'm experiencing, however, is 100% consistent which would indicate that the ECU software could easily be the culprit.

Rusty

I'm working on the theory that the TPS is not temp. compensated, and that it gets very warm in our bike. I have no direct evidence this is the case, but some reported behavior is consistent with this.
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Old 07-04-2007, 07:56 AM
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Re: High Idle: My Observations

I explored this also. The paperwork had to be recieved by BMW (hence job complete) by 6/29/2007 in order to qualify for the discount program. I have a great deal of confidence in my dealer (Max BMW). If I end up with problems I know I can get the new ECU in some sort of warrenty arrangement.
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Old 08-22-2018, 08:33 PM
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Re: High Idle: My Observations

has anyone found a solution to the high idle problem?
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Old 08-23-2018, 06:20 PM
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Re: High Idle: My Observations

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Originally Posted by d.moore
has anyone found a solution to the high idle problem?
I have the same problem and the only thing I have not done yet is the air box! Ug not looking forward to that repair
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Old 08-23-2018, 09:33 PM
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Re: High Idle: My Observations

i did change my air box,idle control valve,secondary idle control valve,throttle position sensor and the bike runs the same as it did before all that.
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Old 08-24-2018, 10:15 AM
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Re: High Idle: My Observations

Keep in mind it's now 10-11 years since my K12GT suffered the high idle issues.

The problem was finally cured by BMW with the release of a third airbox.

So, you had the original airbox which caused issues with high idle and a more dangerous issue called the Bucking Bronco Syndrome (BBS).

BMW attempted to cure the problems with a redesigned airbox this being the second airbox. Unfortunately, the redesigned airbox cured nothing.

Shortly after, BMW released the third airbox and this proved successful. From memory, it was found in the case of the 1st and 2nd versions, the airbox walls were too thin which caused the plastic to flex. This flex, in turn, cause problems with a stepper motor inside the airbox. It's so long ago now but I think the stepper motor would have been the idle control valve. Anyhow, as I said, the 3rd version of the airbox finally resolved the high idle and BBS.

If it was me I'd talk with your local dealer about the problem. You never know, they may be happy to fix it for you free of charge?
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Old 08-24-2018, 05:21 PM
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d.moore d.moore is offline
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Join Date: May 2010
Location: newfield, ny us
Re: High Idle: My Observations

thanks K12GT DOWN UNDER that is probably what i will do.
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