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Poll: Is rider formalised rider training effective?
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Is rider formalised rider training effective?

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  #61  
Old 05-10-2011, 10:08 AM
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Re: Effectiveness of rider training

[quote=K12jim] I posted about a year ago about losing my rear wheel at 70mph. (Still say it was tampered with, cops still REFUSE to investigate, they said it's not worth their time)

Do you have a recent ex? I'm surprised your still riding. I bet you kick your tires before get on it now.
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  #62  
Old 05-11-2011, 07:46 PM
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Re: Effectiveness of rider training

not an EX, but a former co-worker. thinking of posting an opinion poll with details, and let the masses speak!. I mean how can 1000 BMW riders be wrong?
As far as courses, lets see some simulated "combat training". IE. cars pulling out in front of you, the guy coming up from behind too fast at a stop light, cagers on cell phones changing lanes without looking, The list is endless. I mean a riding around in a parking lot (seems like most courses)is fine too, but most riders probably don't get hit in a parking lot . I imagine a movie set like experience, Learning how to ride the bike is fine (starting out on a 250 in class, then buying a 1000 cc is questionable in my opinion) but learning to be aware and keep an eye out for options(and idiots) is a realistic idea.
For whats it's worth.
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  #63  
Old 05-17-2011, 05:03 PM
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Re: Effectiveness of rider training

Compared to some, or most, on this forum I'm a relative new-b. I started riding about 5+ years ago at the ripe old age of 48 by taking the beginner MSF course. It confirmed what I had known for a long time but had not acted on - I love motorcycling and cannot get enough of it. The course was perfect for me, I had a lot of fun, learned a lot and aced it (no surprise as it's not tough, nor is that the point). I subsequently bought a Kawi 750cc as a first bike and rode it for 25,000 miles, mostly commuting. About a year-and-a-half after taking the BRC I took the ERC and it reinforced some of the riding skills I had started to develop.

About 2 years into my riding experience, and not long after taking the ERC, I had my first "crash" - a low side slide out going slow (<15MPH) around a very tight turn). It was a sunny January day and I knew there was sand still left on some parts the roads from a previous snowfall a couple of weeks earlier, and despite knowing this, and watching for it, I still made the mistake of touching the front brake lever in this turn over a sandy patch. Besides the bike repairs and the bruise to the ego, I wasn't hurt, and I think I learned from that screw up.

Then about a year after that incident I had another crash, this time going about 30MPH around a turn that crested at the top of a hill. As I was leaned over and cresting the hill a small dog "appeared out of nowhere" right in my lane . I reacted faster than I could think and, again, grabbed for brake. You guessed it - low side slide out. Maybe I hadn't learned after all. Braking in turns can be hazardous...

That was about 18 months and 9,000 miles ago. Despite these incidents I don't plan on giving up riding any time soon. I have upgraded to a K bike recently and put about 1,000 miles on it. I'm signed up for a second ERC class to run through with my new bike (will take this Saturday).

So, my take on rider training courses is that, while I would advise anyone to take one or more, and have done so myself, there is no guarantee that the course will prevent you from making mistakes while out there riding. Bottom line is that there is very little, if any, room for mistakes and one has to stay focused 100% of the time. It's what makes a rider a rider. Be careful out there.
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  #64  
Old 05-18-2011, 08:06 AM
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Re: Effectiveness of rider training

Then about a year after that incident I had another crash, this time going about 30MPH around a turn that crested at the top of a hill. As I was leaned over and cresting the hill a small dog "appeared out of nowhere" right in my lane . I reacted faster than I could think and, again, grabbed for brake. You guessed it - low side slide out. Maybe I hadn't learned after all. Braking in turns can be hazardous...

Correct me if I'm wrong here since I do like most people tend to learn from mistakes either my own or others but I seldom use my rear brake (even though the front and rear are linked on my bike). I was always told not to use the rear brake but will use it often at low speeds, on straight aways or on loose road surfaces like gravel (while never locking it up). Now, when it comes to high speed cornering I'll obviously try to slow down prior to entering the curve. If I find that I have entered it too fast and I'm running out of negotiating room I'll tap on the front brake release and lean further. The front forks are under load and are pressing the tire down harder than your rear tire. So, it seems natural if you have to use your brakes while cornering then your front brake is your best option. As I said here, I'm always open to suggestion if it's going to possible help me out someday.
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  #65  
Old 05-18-2011, 08:31 AM
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Re: Effectiveness of rider training

Quote:
Originally Posted by CJS350
Maybe there's a course out there that'll teach you to ride like this guy:

Tobe able to ride like this guy I think some divine power must influence yourDNA. Rossi follows the law of natural selection and found his niche. I haven'tbeen keeping up with him since his bad accident tho. Heard he's having a roughgo with Ducati. I wouldn't discount him or write him off just yet.
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  #66  
Old 05-18-2011, 10:46 AM
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Re: Effectiveness of rider training

you mean no one else has a hover cycle? they stick to the air like glue. very fast. no rolling resistance.
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  #67  
Old 05-18-2011, 10:49 AM
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Re: Effectiveness of rider training

Quote:
Originally Posted by heinzdog
Then about a year after that incident I had another crash, this time going about 30MPH around a turn that crested at the top of a hill. As I was leaned over and cresting the hill a small dog "appeared out of nowhere" right in my lane . I reacted faster than I could think and, again, grabbed for brake. You guessed it - low side slide out. Maybe I hadn't learned after all. Braking in turns can be hazardous...

Correct me if I'm wrong here since I do like most people tend to learn from mistakes either my own or others but I seldom use my rear brake (even though the front and rear are linked on my bike). I was always told not to use the rear brake but will use it often at low speeds, on straight aways or on loose road surfaces like gravel (while never locking it up). Now, when it comes to high speed cornering I'll obviously try to slow down prior to entering the curve. If I find that I have entered it too fast and I'm running out of negotiating room I'll tap on the front brake release and lean further. The front forks are under load and are pressing the tire down harder than your rear tire. So, it seems natural if you have to use your brakes while cornering then your front brake is your best option. As I said here, I'm always open to suggestion if it's going to possible help me out someday.

Its called Trail Braking. Used proper can save your hind end big time. Rear brake in a corner without locking up the tire will chop speed off without having the front end dive , like when you grab a handfull of front brake. ABS will keep the rear from locking up anyway. Loose surface, good luck, hang on and never relinquish attempted control of the bike. you could get lucky. (unless it is really time to let go)
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  #68  
Old 05-18-2011, 11:17 AM
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Re: Effectiveness of rider training

Quote:
Originally Posted by heinzdog
Then about a year after that incident I had another crash, this time going about 30MPH around a turn that crested at the top of a hill. As I was leaned over and cresting the hill a small dog "appeared out of nowhere" right in my lane . I reacted faster than I could think and, again, grabbed for brake. You guessed it - low side slide out. Maybe I hadn't learned after all. Braking in turns can be hazardous...

Correct me if I'm wrong here since I do like most people tend to learn from mistakes either my own or others but I seldom use my rear brake (even though the front and rear are linked on my bike). I was always told not to use the rear brake but will use it often at low speeds, on straight aways or on loose road surfaces like gravel (while never locking it up). Now, when it comes to high speed cornering I'll obviously try to slow down prior to entering the curve. If I find that I have entered it too fast and I'm running out of negotiating room I'll tap on the front brake release and lean further. The front forks are under load and are pressing the tire down harder than your rear tire. So, it seems natural if you have to use your brakes while cornering then your front brake is your best option. As I said here, I'm always open to suggestion if it's going to possible help me out someday.

Heinzdog, in this instance the mistake I made was coming in to the curve too fast for my sight line. The curve crested a hill right at the "apex" of the curve so I couldn't see the road surface over the crest of the hill in the second half of the curve. Timing is everything, and the dog in my lane just over the crest of the hill caught me by surprise and I grabbed a handful of FRONT brake. The front locked up momentarily and that's all it took for the low slide fall. Lesson learned - enter the curve at a speed that would allow me to straighten the bike and stop if needed.
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  #69  
Old 07-03-2011, 07:29 PM
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Re: Effectiveness of rider training

I highly recommend rider safety training. After 30+ years of riding, I am happy to say I have never had a crash. I have on occasion scared the cr*p out of myself, but I think the training helped me to avoid disaster.

I have lived through my share of blown tires, bee's in the eye, cars pulling out in front without looking etc. and every time it was instinct thru training and experience that got me through unscathed

I think the most important thing I have taken away from my training courses was the instilled attitude that we are always invisible while riding. Learning to make myself visible to others, proper lane position, leaving a way out, and anticipating what the cages are going to do around me has kept me accident free.

The mechanics of riding can be taught to almost anyone (just look at your average HD rider for proof). Its developing the proper attitude and good riding habits that keep you safe, or at least increase your ability to be safe. Proper training lays the foundation for gaining experience.
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  #70  
Old 07-25-2011, 10:31 PM
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Re: Effectiveness of rider training

think that this video "is the effectiveness of riding training" or is it the "bike"

http://www.youtube.com/user/vystrcil...&ad=9710386916
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  #71  
Old 07-26-2011, 08:01 AM
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Re: Effectiveness of rider training

Not too shabby for a Harley. Imagine what the cop could do if he was on a BMW. Probably shave 10 seconds off his time.
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  #72  
Old 08-24-2011, 04:01 PM
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Re: Effectiveness of rider training

Post 3 pic #3 shows rider counter leaning , not good form, my comment to this thread is training never hurts, each one has different issues that could improve their riding skills, unless you go to a riding school of some sort how would you know if you have developed bad habits. Years or riding is like becoming a journyman at any trade and that is average of 10,000 hours at your skill to become preficiant at it, so riding is the same, it takes a class of anykind by a good teacher of that topic should boost you to a advanced level of experiance, It once was said at a trade school that a two year degree was like working in the field for 5 years starting there with no experiance.

I recently 2 week ago survived a head on collisian that totaled my bike, countersteer manouver save my life from a car impact...Im alive to tell you that my Idaho Star riding course played into affect, they taught me so well there was no thinking about it I just reacted, I also have been riding since i was 12, i personaly have 250,000 miles on different bikes as well, so a combination of time and training is the answer here you should be looking at... Just My opinion Matthew
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  #73  
Old 09-27-2011, 03:46 AM
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Re: Effectiveness of rider training

LOL.. I love the Bush Lied People Died. I wanted to click it but, I wanted to stay on task .. Why can't I choose 2??
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  #74  
Old 12-27-2011, 01:44 PM
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Re: Effectiveness of rider training

Motorcyles are just like everything else - Training, Training and more Training makes you more proficient. There wasn't an MSF when I started riding, and I thought I could ride ok until I did my first trackday. I learned more doing trackdays than I learned in riding on the street in 30 years about what my bike is capable of, and am a much better rider in the last 2 years than I was in the previous 28.

Training won't prevent the inevitable, or things that happen that are out of your control, but it will give you tools with how to deal with them.

Hey, Kyle..and I know, it's not a BMW....
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  #75  
Old 03-31-2012, 08:28 AM
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Re: Effectiveness of rider training

Never to late to learn!!
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  #76  
Old 04-16-2012, 04:33 PM
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Re: Effectiveness of rider training

The question is about the effectiveness of formalised rider training.

Most of the responses have been from the US and Canada so here's the UK perspective.

From at least 20 years ago everyone had to undertake their CBT - Compulsory Basic Training - which was a morning spent riding your 125 around cones in a car park.

After that, if you were over 21, you could ride around on a 125 for ever on Learner plates without ever taking a test.

If you wanted to ride a bigger bike then you had to take a test - around 30 to 40 minutes of being followed by an examiner. Assuming you passed - and the pass rate was just over 50% - you could ride what you wanted - in my case a Honda VFR 750.

I twatted round on my VFR for about 2 years before being caught speeding and banned for 3 weeks. A 3 year spell with a Hardly Movingsome - and hardly any miles - intervened before I realised that I was either going to get a bike I wanted to ride or give biking up.

I bought a Kawasaki ZZR 1200 and as a sop to my wife - who thought I would kill myself in double quick time - I booked two days advanced training.

My eyes were opened. I realised how badly I'd been riding up to that point and had avoided an accident more by luck than judgement.

So my 2p. Formal tests are designed to see whether you can do what the examining body wants to see. If you think that this qualifies you to ride anything, anywhere, in any fashion you choose then think again.

Track days - brilliant in letting you know the real limits of your bike in a relatively safe environment.

Off road riding - highly valuable in teaching you the benefits of staying relaxed even when both wheels are moving about underneath you.

Road training - I use a group of Police Class 1 motorcyclists who have formed their own business for off duty time and spend a day with them every two years.

and miles - the more the better.
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  #77  
Old 09-27-2012, 07:35 AM
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Re: Effectiveness of rider training

We have heard from the USA, UK now for Australia. When I did my licence test I was 16 years and 9 months, it consisted of 20 true or false questions, I was asked to ride my bike (no restriction on engine capacity) to the end of the road, do a U turn without touching the ground and provided you wore a crash helmet for the test, paid your fee they gave you your licence on your 17th birthday - pretty crude I would say. That was 35 years ago.
Today the law requires a MC Training course and a 12 month qualifying period on a provisional licence before an unrestricted licence is issued. During the learner phase and the probationary 12 months you must not ride anything that is not learner legal i.e. weight to power ratio similar to a Honda CB 400 or similar.
In my case I rode various road bikes from 250cc Suzuki Hustler, 350 Suzuki cafe racer, Kawazaki 900, CBR 750 Honda, MV Agusta Brutale 750 S and now a K12S. I had two accidents on the rode in my first 8 years of riding. Both could be described as heavy offs rather than bad injury sustaining accidents although in the second crash I "T-boned" a drunk who made a turn into my path coming back to the pub after having driven home to get more money for more drinks. He was charged with DUI, then his insurance would not pay up so I had to sue the fellow personally to recover the value of my written off bike. It took over 2 years. Not terribly equitable I would say!
The point of all this is that I've been riding, road bikes, dirt bikes and off road quads for over 35 years and have never had a formal training session until 2 years ago when I discovered the California Super Bike School and Keith Code method. I had never heard of counter steering, weighting the wheels, braking techniques or throttle control. Best thing I ever did and I make it my mission to take a new level each year, level 3 before Xmas 2012 .
As for beginners courses I really think they are essential, formal training with an instructor both in a controlled environment and on the road before you get a licence is also essential. No one is too good or too old to learn something.
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  #78  
Old 12-19-2012, 05:33 AM
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Re: Effectiveness of rider training

Originally self taught(no separate motorcycle endorsement back in cave man days) and got my bumps and bruises from Class 'C' and MX racing..good experience. My first motorcycle instruction was through the South Dakota Highway Patrol Motor Officer school and MSF Chief Instructor course as I was 'voluteered' to start a m/c safety course at our airbase and develop courses for SAC (Strategic Air Command) bases at the time.

Bottom line..the best way to learn it is by teaching it...
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  #79  
Old 01-31-2013, 05:05 PM
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Re: Effectiveness of rider training

From my reading, it seems that the only thing that is a positive factor in saving your (my) backside is ABS!
The stats say that rider training is not a significant factor!
Having said that, I do believe that proper training makes a safer rider, and practicing collision avoidance (under supervision) makes the inevitable emergency avoidance activity become "automatic" in my brain processes.
As well, a riders course increases your confidence (perhaps not a good thing); at the time, I realized that Harleys really could turn into curves when asked to do so (OK, no doubt that the K 12 GT is better at it).
So we are back to the stuff between our ears to keep the rubber side down.
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  #80  
Old 01-31-2013, 06:12 PM
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Re: Effectiveness of rider training

Quote:
Originally Posted by BubbaMack
Nope. In this great state you are not required to wear a helmet, but you must have 'some form' of eye protection. For the full story, the LEO had followed me for about 2 miles through several lights. As soon as I flipped my visor to prevent fogging in 90+ degree heat, he lit me up. He was looking for a reason, and I gave him one.
Well I mostly was visor up, but screen right up too, and the aftermarket big screen was eye protection methinks?
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  #81  
Old 01-31-2013, 06:17 PM
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Re: Effectiveness of rider training

Not sure how relevant it is to the actual poll questions, but I took Danny Walker's American Supercamp 2 day course last June. While the focus is on flat track trail-braking techniques, I've found what I learned for dirt riding directly translates to improved road riding/canyon carving... I noticed an improvement in my consistency almost immediately.

If anyone's got one of his traveling course going on even remotely close to you, I'd highly recommend it (many people in my class flew in for it). Not only do you learn a ton, it's a major blast.

http://www.americansupercamp.com/
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  #82  
Old 01-31-2013, 09:35 PM
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Re: Effectiveness of rider training

Narsisco, that sounds excellent and very much like Rich Oliver's Mystery School in CA. I took both my daughters out there a few years back and we had a blast. I'll certainly return for his flat track racing course. He and his wife were just awesome teachers!
http://www.richoliver.net/FunCampMain.html

Quote:
Originally Posted by narsisco lopez
Not sure how relevant it is to the actual poll questions, but I took Danny Walker's American Supercamp 2 day course last June. While the focus is on flat track trail-braking techniques, I've found what I learned for dirt riding directly translates to improved road riding/canyon carving... I noticed an improvement in my consistency almost immediately.

If anyone's got one of his traveling course going on even remotely close to you, I'd highly recommend it (many people in my class flew in for it). Not only do you learn a ton, it's a major blast.

http://www.americansupercamp.com/
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  #83  
Old 04-10-2013, 12:25 PM
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Re: Effectiveness of rider training

I took the MSF course prior to riding. I've taken several courses since then as well. Last week, I took the Oklahoma Highway Patrol motorcycle safety course. While the material covered was basic, I still learned a few things and I think it makes me a better rider. I think practicing emergency stops, evasive maneuvers, and other things keeps a rider sharp and may help avoid an accident.
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  #84  
Old 04-21-2013, 08:58 AM
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Re: Effectiveness of rider training

It is a great way to start and gives you the confidence needed to know you have the fundamentals in mind, so you can then practice in a parking lot or quiet neighborhood until you feel confident enough to get out there for real.

I am in that position now. 200 miles in after MCF and am riding almost everywhere now. Feeling good. I had a bike for a month 25 years ago and crashed. Mostly other persons fault, but I too was untrained and 17.

Just go at your own pace and have someone with you while training. Head turns, head up and concentrate on how to execute is key!
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  #85  
Old 04-21-2013, 11:25 AM
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Re: Effectiveness of rider training

I took the Edmond PD Motorcycle Survival course yesterday. It's pretty basic but a friend of mine who has never taken a class went and commented on how he learned quite a few things. He's been riding close to 40 years. I dropped my bike trying the 20 foot box turn, just a couple of scratches and some sore ribs for me. I'd much rather drop it practicing than in the street. I've gained a lot of confidence on emergency stopping and evasive maneuvering. Where I ride around Oklahoma City, motorists are trying to kill riders on a daily basis while texting or other stupid stuff. It pays to be aware and ready to react to the unexpected.
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  #86  
Old 04-25-2013, 10:30 AM
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Re: Effectiveness of rider training

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bkrnrd
I took the Edmond PD Motorcycle Survival course yesterday.........
...... I dropped my bike trying the 20 foot box turn, just a couple of scratches and some sore ribs for me..
Sounds like a great refresher course. I need to take the light and cheap 250 Ninja and do the tight figure 8s in a parking lot. Did many U turns to enjoy a stunning patch of technical curves recently and found that the it wasn't so easy on the long, heavy S.

Thanks for the motivating push!
Bet lots of riders could use a bit of brushing up of their skills as winter turns to spring and the roads clear.
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Old 06-18-2013, 06:35 PM
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Re: Effectiveness of rider training

As noted in my earlier post I use a group of current or retired Police Class 1 motoorcyclists to periodically review my riding.

They are: www.rapidtraining.co.uk

I cannot recommend them highly enough. I went out with them for the 5th time in the last 10 or 12 years yesterday along with a friend - 2 trainees to the 1 instructor. He picked out a couple of areas where I'd inadvertently allowed bad habits to creep in. Eradicating these will increase my safety margin - maybe only slightly but maybe that small extra margin will save my life. Worth every penny of the £170 - Euro 200 or US$ 250 I spent.
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Old 06-19-2013, 04:45 AM
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Re: Effectiveness of rider training

I'm taking the 2nd course of the MSF training this weekend. It will come in handy learning more tips or techniques that may save my life someday. I learned quite a bit with the 1st course that I took about 4 years ago. I've been riding street bikes for about 15 years collectively and it was a confidence booster.
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Old 12-07-2013, 08:31 AM
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Re: Effectiveness of rider training

Check out some of the ride & track school specials.
Just got an email from RideSmart, which operates mostly in TX, offering gift certificates for track days 1, 2, or 3 purchased at a time.
A 3 pack is only $100. each!
It isn't yet listed on their website, but if interested, you might contact them.

http://www.ridesmart.info/index.php
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Old 12-07-2013, 01:02 PM
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Re: Effectiveness of rider training

Took the basic course a couple years ago to refresh my motorcycling memory from before I had to be a responsible parent. Also took a course at Oregon Raceway Park with Reg Pridmore. Plan to take the advanced riders course here this (next) summer. All great experiences that really sharpen your skills. Don't plan on ever stop attending classes - great fun and people.
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Old 01-15-2014, 07:31 PM
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Re: Effectiveness of rider training

My opinion about this subject is that if your going to ride well and build reflex time and all in all learn how to control a motorized 2 wheel vehicle it is to allow your kid, that is fairly seasoned ..(started to ride at 11 here, because I got too big for my Hot-Wheel, hehe).. with a bicycle at 13-14, to get his own mini-bike, with shocks preferably. I had a Rupp at that time. Oh, I know that some start kids on little dirtbikes at 7. But the frustration of the father and the gray hairs the mother must get doing it..well, you deside on that one.

Now, learn to ride the thing like some 2 yrs older bully on a faster bike wanted to beat-you-up; then you also learn what its like taking flight, getting some great air. Which to me, it sort of became second nature...not getting beat up all the time like some here would think, but the 'fun' that came when loosing that sucker after he crashed into a curb, after 'I had to' take it to the neighbor hood streets. Oh, I basically got beat up after he found me later..off the bike, hehe.

We were fortunate to have a large field behind the development where I lived with dirt paths around it and thru it with even mounds of dirt in the middle of it to 'jump'. Man, did I have fun as a kid! So after that age, when I learned how to 'ride like someone was following to kill me' (as the saying somewhat goes..at 15, because I rode the heck out of it without getting to seriously hurt, oh yes, me and the dirt got highly familiar with each other, but all in all IT ISN'T as bad as doing so with TARMAC and ROAD RASH! Oh, I had some dirt rash (no gear, but a helmet only) and engine/muffler burns working on the thing, but I lived! (amazingly, because before I sold it, I put a bigger motor, B&S 5hp from the 3hp that was on it, and a suicide throttle {that's a reverse, giving it the gas, with the grip for those that didn't know}..and my 2yr older sister thought she could ride, not with that thing! She had the worse crash on the Rupp it ever had since I got it. Needless to say, she never road again; now THAT'S a 'skeerdy cat'.

Where was I? Oh yeah..so at 15 let him get a Street/Trail bike. I had a 185cc Suzuki which also seen some air and down time. I then had it street legal at 16 after I had cage driver safety in H.S. and took the two tests written n ride'n. Its the first thing I had legal on the road for a year, no crashes. But I did manage my first ticket with the thing crossing a double-line making a U-turn with it..much easier done on a bike than a care, for sure. BUT, this is the funny part, to me anyway, I had to take my test over again 'IN A CAGE'!
So, to make a long story short, at 17 I bought my own new street bike. It was a 650 Yammy Special (a 'gooD' looking candy-apple 'RED' 2 popper, but vibrated to where my hands and arms got numb after long rides.. unlike the not so good looking 2 popper boxer with a large flywheel). I bought it because the owner tried to sell me the 1100 Special by riding fast in front of me on the demo ride, I somewhat kept up, but..I know that bike was too much for me..I was wise, I believe, at that time.

Been riding ever since. Seemed like I left riding every 3 yrs. and went back to it after about 2 yrs. So, I had a few bikes, one at a time, because that all you can ride, unless I could have got a dirtbike and trailer, I would have. But I wasn't rich, but I was wealthy in my own way and really didn't know it.

So let your kid get a bike, a minibike, a dirtbike and then, a street bike.. And have some fun!!
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Old 01-17-2014, 04:24 PM
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Re: Effectiveness of rider training

And 'no', I did NOT put that suicide throttle on the Rupp for my sisters undoing, but 'she' was a bully, and it just turned out that way..
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Old 01-17-2014, 04:28 PM
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Re: Effectiveness of rider training

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bear
And 'no', I did NOT put that suicide throttle on the Rupp for my sisters undoing, but 'she' was a bully, and it just turned out that way..

I may add that I NEVER hit a woman, closed fist, and will never.. though I did punch a door, wall, and pillow or two because of what I felt towards them and for them (females). That's my story, and I am sticking to it..
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Old 01-17-2014, 04:55 PM
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Re: Effectiveness of rider training

Granted, some (few) women have the skills: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...la_One_drivers
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Old 02-12-2014, 06:04 PM
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Re: Effectiveness of rider training

In the latest BMW Motorrad e-mail blast they highlighted the Road Rider Training course they have at their facility in Greenville/Spartanburg, SC.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UR8b129QtLg

I did the course and unfortunately the video doesn't show the braking with/without ABS and the obstacle avoidance training. It is a first class course even if you think you know it all.

I did it 13 months ago and at least twice it has saved me from potential embarrassment. Cannot recommend it enough.

Track racing is something else. It's the stupid *astard in the cage with the mobile phone/hot dog/lipstick that scares the crap out of me.
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Old 03-14-2014, 12:53 AM
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Re: Effectiveness of rider training

There's my post!! And I thought that the thing was deleted as I looked everywhere for it!! Its now saved, so do what you will with it.
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Old 04-06-2014, 01:38 PM
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Re: Effectiveness of rider training

I'm surprised by the poll and options - the poll answers have little to do with the question being asked. I don't agree in the suggestion that rider training is directly correlated to whether you had a crash (or not) and "within 3,000 miles". The vast majority of motorbike road traffic accidents are the result of circumstances beyond the control or influence of the rider. Rider training may make you more aware of potential hazards, and teach you how to best position yourself to reduce your exposure time, but these hazards are the same whether you've been riding 10 miles or 100,000.
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Old 05-02-2014, 01:29 PM
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Re: Effectiveness of rider training

Back when I learned to ride, MSF was still in its early years and was not readily accessible in my area. As a result, I took a private course in riding. I am glad that I did because it taught me a lot of things that I did not know about basic riding (and which I would not have wanted to learn the hard way). As a result, I went a number of years without a crash (not to say that I am still a crash virgin). I am convinced that what I learned has led me to avoid a number of crash situations, and even reduced the severity of the crash I had some years ago. I aways recommend to anyone who is just getting into motorcycling to take at least one riding course. IMO, it is well worth the cost and time.

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Old 05-05-2014, 09:19 PM
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Re: Effectiveness of rider training

Street low-siding.

There are two things I've learned in my riding experience when low-siding that is totally 'invaluable' for all riders. That is, one, do not try to get up 'untill you stop the slide'.. because believe me, when it happens that is the first instinct for a rider to do. And two, though I've never experienced it, but makes perfect sense, is that you try and get on top of the bike on high speed long slids rather than having to experience the 'road rash' blues even with leathers on. My two cents, with sense.
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Old 05-08-2014, 09:08 AM
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Re: Effectiveness of rider training

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bear
Street low-siding.

There are two things I've learned in my riding experience when low-siding that is totally 'invaluable' for all riders. That is, one, do not try to get up 'untill you stop the slide'.. because believe me, when it happens that is the first instinct for a rider to do. And two, though I've never experienced it, but makes perfect sense, is that you try and get on top of the bike on high speed long slids rather than having to experience the 'road rash' blues even with leathers on. My two cents, with sense.


My only speedy low-side was on the track many years ago but what I remembered is that the bike kept traveling much faster than I did once we were both on the pavement. Personally, I'd rather let the bike go and let my own inertia dissipate than to risk surfing a sliding bike into something. It's kind of a moot point anyway, once it starts it's not like you've got many options to act on anyway.

The best thing you can do is be properly geared up. I'm headed back to the track after about a 30 year break and so I'm out looking at gear. Lots of good stuff out there, particularly interesting is how the designs have matured to keep your feet sliding instead of catching on the edge of something and breaking an ankle. Same with the gloves and the reinforcements. I hope some of that chit works because at 55 years old I don't heal like I did when I was in my 20's and I know it's going to happen once the fuse is lit.
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Old 05-13-2014, 01:13 PM
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Re: Effectiveness of rider training

Quote:
Originally Posted by PittsDriverWes
My only speedy low-side was on the track many years ago but what I remembered is that the bike kept traveling much faster than I did once we were both on the pavement. Personally, I'd rather let the bike go and let my own inertia dissipate than to risk surfing a sliding bike into something. It's kind of a moot point anyway, once it starts it's not like you've got many options to act on anyway.

The best thing you can do is be properly geared up. I'm headed back to the track after about a 30 year break and so I'm out looking at gear. Lots of good stuff out there, particularly interesting is how the designs have matured to keep your feet sliding instead of catching on the edge of something and breaking an ankle. Same with the gloves and the reinforcements. I hope some of that chit works because at 55 years old I don't heal like I did when I was in my 20's and I know it's going to happen once the fuse is lit.


Just hold on to that Mare and don't let her get away then get on top of her if you have the thinking and strength! It just may save your skin.. literally.
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Old 05-13-2014, 02:30 PM
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Re: Effectiveness of rider training

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bear
Just hold on to that Mare and don't let her get away then get on top of her if you have the thinking and strength! It just may save your skin.. literally.
While we are on here debating the merits of the best way to crash I'll toss my $0.02 into the fray and say that your idea Bear sounds like a good way to get hurt.

I've lowsided a few bikes through the years at "decent" speed (the best being at the racetrack). What I've noted on more then one occasion is the bike sliding along nicely before catching and violently flipping to the other side. Me, I don't want to be sitting on/with the bike when it decides that it wants to change direction/sides.

In terms of using this technique to save your skin, I'll suggest that you invest in better leathers as mine have slid multiple times without me suffering any abrasion as of yet. I guess I'll continue to chance it as opposed to "going for broke", literally as in broken bones.
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Old 05-13-2014, 03:33 PM
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Re: Effectiveness of rider training

Quote:
Originally Posted by MattB
While we are on here debating the merits of the best way to crash I'll toss my $0.02 into the fray and say that your idea Bear sounds like a good way to get hurt.

I've lowsided a few bikes through the years at "decent" speed (the best being at the racetrack). What I've noted on more then one occasion is the bike sliding along nicely before catching and violently flipping to the other side. Me, I don't want to be sitting on/with the bike when it decides that it wants to change direction/sides.

In terms of using this technique to save your skin, I'll suggest that you invest in better leathers as mine have slid multiple times without me suffering any abrasion as of yet. I guess I'll continue to chance it as opposed to "going for broke", literally as in broken bones.


Well I guess that I'd like to spend time on 'top' of the sled than being beside her.
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Old 05-30-2014, 07:16 AM
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Re: Effectiveness of rider training

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bear
Just hold on to that Mare and don't let her get away then get on top of her if you have the thinking and strength! It just may save your skin.. literally.

I have a tee from way back, it says,
"If you love your bike let it go. If it comes back to you, you've high-sided!"

I think it was Tim (or his brother) that said,
"If you crash, let go of the bike, you don't need it anymore!"
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Old 09-01-2014, 09:57 AM
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Re: Effectiveness of rider training

Not only did it come back ... My K landed on me ... after a high side .
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  #106  
Old 10-30-2014, 09:38 PM
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Re: Effectiveness of rider training

I took a rider training in 1985. Never had a crash or mishap. I ride a lot.
My son took his driver training in summer 2013. Crashed his bike on first ride in a medium speed corner.

Most beginner training programs are worthless. They should be followed by on-track training.

Lee
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  #107  
Old 12-07-2014, 11:59 AM
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100,000 miles before my safety course

Bought my first motorcycle (Honda CB350) when I was 17. Managed to overbrake in traffic and drop it on my foot the first week. Went on to BSA 650, then Kawasaki Z-1 without accidents. Z1 stolen, replaced with new 1976 R90s. Rode it cross country. First serious accident happened on way home from store one day when old guy pulled out from side of road (in the country) and I smashed into the side of the car. Totalled bike, and my wife's leg. Bought 78 R100RS and had it 5 years with no accidents. Traded for 83 R100RS that was totaled on way home from work when driver turned in front of me. Bought two 85 K100RS's (on in Europe) with the insurance settlement, and stupidly crashed one a couple of years later under high speed braking when front wheel locked up on a damp spot.

Then had kids.

10 years the KRS sat in the garage, only to be revived when I was heading into divorce. When my kids found out I was going to ride again, they implored me to take an MSF course first. So I did. Very odd training on little dinky bikes at speeds so slow you still turned the bars in the direction of the turn. Nothing at all like the real world, but useful for beginners who (typically) had:
a. never ridden before
b. just bought a Harley

After the course, I took my revived KRS to San Diego from Phoenix, then all the way up highway 1 to Washington, on to Seattle, over to Point neah, and back down highway 1 again.

Met new woman who got me into scuba instead of biking, and KRS sat again, sometimes for years. Finally, after 30 years with the bike bought another BMW, a K1300s. Still have the K100RS.

I feel safer on the new bike due more to technology than rider training, specifically ABS. One the other hand, the speed can be ridiculous.

I'm glad I took the training class (back in 2005). It was good to get some riding time in before getting back on a big bike after 10 years off, but really the only thing that sticks with me now was learning to 'look where you want to go' in very low speed U-turns. Most of the rest of the stuff was at speeds that were simply too slow to translate to street riding.

And I do think it was odd the emphasis the MSF placed on using all fingers for braking. Many times I ride with two fingers on the brake in traffic to be able to instantly brake in an emergency. Split seconds count. And I don't need more than two fingers to brake a BMW anyway.
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Old 03-18-2015, 02:39 PM
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Re: Effectiveness of rider training

2 years ago Pa. changed their contract from MSF and effective this year Ca. did the same thing..

http://www.motorcycleconsumernews-di...pa5G9QbNZ#pg24

However Ca. questioned the real reason of 'Effectiveness of Rider Training' under MSF standards..
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Old 04-10-2015, 09:33 PM
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Re: Effectiveness of rider training

I took a beginner course when I was 17 (I'm 43 now) because it was required for an endorsement for minors in my state. Does this count?

I've crashed thrice and each time I was riding angry or drunk. Pushed harder and took more chances because of the state I was in. Don't ride pissed!
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Old 10-07-2015, 07:06 PM
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Re: Effectiveness of rider training

"I did not take a rider training course and had a crash in the first 3,000 miles of riding"

I started riding dirt bikes in 1975. So, I fell a lot. Got involved in short-track racing in '76-'77. So, no rider course, but fell a lot. After 40 years, I still do not have a MC license. I just renew a learners permit every year or four. I have to bite the bullet and get it though, because KY is a One-renew-only state for the Learners. I suppose a riders training course is OK if you dont know anything about bikes, and, you can drop their Rebel back up, not your bike, but ti me, there is nothing like woods riding to hone your skills. Decades later, I competed in crazy dual sport events on a behemoth DR650 and again realized how little I know about riding. I fell more than was upright on some days, but had more fun than should be legal, and re-developed bike handling skills I thought were long gone. I would say if someone knows they are going to stick with this obsession for life, buy a cheapo dirt bike and put a few hours on it every weekend. That will shoot you up the ladder o' skillage faster than anything else. I've fallen three times on the road *oUcH*, and each time was because I was distracted. All me. Not paying attention. After two times, ya think I'd learn?
So, in summation--Dirt bikes, go slow, pay attention!
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  #111  
Old 06-13-2016, 03:15 PM
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Re: Effectiveness of rider training

Been riding for over 40 yrs. 10 yrs ago did a MSF course for insurance requirement and discount. The instructor didn't like that I covered the brake with 2 fingers. He said I should do it with 3. I then took that little Honda up to 30 and did a controlled stoppie and raised the back wheel up a foot. He didn't say another word to me for the rest of the training. Yes, I did pass😊
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  #112  
Old 06-14-2016, 01:06 PM
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Thumbs up Re: Effectiveness of rider training

Up here in Canada, I did the Sharp Riders Advanced Riders Course Level One with Lee Parks June 3rd, and although I never intend to put my inside knee on the ground in the corners, it was an amazing day of instruction and training.
Lee is engaging, easy to follow, and enjoys students, knowing that we do not get things quickly.
My K 1200 GT easily handled the course, and the only limitations were those between my ears.
Certainly a lot to take in, but this training already is leading to more road skills.
Lee's "Sharp Rider" instructors in Mississauga, Donna & Nancy, are awesome riders, and equally qualified educators.
For those who input visually, try reading his book called "Total Control High Performance Street Riding Techniques".
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Old 04-05-2017, 02:17 PM
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misti misti is offline
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Re: Effectiveness of rider training

I never took a beginner riding class until my new racer course. By then I had developed a lot of bad habits (and had two minor crashes on the street) the racing course didn't address any of them, only the "how to's of racing."

It wasn't until I took all four levels of the California Superbike School that I truly realized how little I knew about riding and technique. Once I completed all the levels (and got accepted to be a riding coach) my street and track riding improved immensely and I was a faster, safer and more confident rider all around.

Going back I wish I had taken a new rider course right from the start and then immediately followed it up with CSS.

I'm a huge advocate of rider training and continued training during your riding career. It pays to ensure that YOU the rider are doing the best possible job of controlling the bike. Once you have a solid understanding of the technical skills then experience can build upon it....but if you try and just get riding "experience" without knowing how to ride correctly you'll only be doing what I did and reinforcing bad habits that will eventually take more time to fix.

Get training first
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  #114  
Old 04-08-2017, 05:41 AM
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KiwiMat KiwiMat is offline
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Re: Effectiveness of rider training

I am very keen to do the next 2 levels (2 & 3) of CSS this year. At around $600 a day plus leathers and 2 days off work, it's not a cheap exercise, but I'm keen as.
I was talking to a guy on a ZX10R last week while night riding through the Old pacific hwy. He said he negotiated full insurance for all the CSS levels because they were all classed as Rider training. They (QBE) usually only cover level 1, so I must look into this as well.
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Old 04-11-2017, 02:55 PM
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Re: Effectiveness of rider training

Quote:
Originally Posted by KiwiMat
I am very keen to do the next 2 levels (2 & 3) of CSS this year. At around $600 a day plus leathers and 2 days off work, it's not a cheap exercise, but I'm keen as.
I was talking to a guy on a ZX10R last week while night riding through the Old pacific hwy. He said he negotiated full insurance for all the CSS levels because they were all classed as Rider training. They (QBE) usually only cover level 1, so I must look into this as well.

Sounds great!!! Level 2 builds so well on what you learned in level 1 and focusses on visual skills which are paramount to good street riding! Let me know what track you will be going to and maybe I'll see you there!!
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Old 04-11-2017, 03:26 PM
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Re: Effectiveness of rider training

Quote:
Originally Posted by misti
Sounds great!!! Level 2 builds so well on what you learned in level 1 and focusses on visual skills which are paramount to good street riding! Let me know what track you will be going to and maybe I'll see you there!!

Sydney Motorsport Park, also known as Eastern Creek.......... Australia.........
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Old 04-18-2017, 01:05 PM
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Re: Effectiveness of rider training

Quote:
Originally Posted by KiwiMat
Sydney Motorsport Park, also known as Eastern Creek.......... Australia.........

Ahhhh cool! Say hi to the Aussie Gang for me then I'm hoping to make it down to some of the schools in Australia one of these days!

Have fun
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  #118  
Old 04-18-2017, 01:51 PM
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Capnrip Capnrip is online now
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Re: Effectiveness of rider training

OK Misti, one for you. After you completed your level 3, what did you choose to work on in level 4 or did your coach suggest some things? I'm doing level 3 next month.
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Old 04-20-2017, 01:19 PM
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Re: Effectiveness of rider training

Quote:
Originally Posted by Capnrip
OK Misti, one for you. After you completed your level 3, what did you choose to work on in level 4 or did your coach suggest some things? I'm doing level 3 next month.

Oh gosh. Good question but that was so long ago (2003) I don't really remember. I do know that I had terrible body position and was riding very crossed up for most of the days and that took at LONG time to undue. I also know that one of my biggest weaknesses (still is) is high speed corner entry and over slowing for the corner. So my coaches often have me work on the 2-step and wide view to prevent my eyes from narrowing down and causing me to feel like I'm going faster than I actually am. We've also worked a lot with getting good solid RP's for where I want to turn and where to apex so that I have visual cues to look at and aim for.

The way level 4 works is that you can suggest things you want to work on or focus on but usually your coach will pick things that they notice are the biggest issues. He/she will debrief you after each ride and then you will go and speak with the level 4 consultant who can take even more time to specifically diagnose the problem and give you something specific to work on next session out. It's a great team effort between the riding coach (who sees what you are doing on track) and the consultant (who has that extra time to really figure out what YOU are doing to cause what the coach sees).

Level 3 is a lot about body position and the relationship between bike and rider and level 4 is unique to you.

Hope that answers your question
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