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"KRS/GT" Technical Q&A K1200RS/GT Technical Questions/Answers

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  #61  
Old 01-19-2018, 12:18 PM
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Re: Brake Line Installation - Completed

Quote:
Originally Posted by CJS350
...I think the main concern would be having the ABS unit...dry - and simply disconnecting the old brake lines and installing the new ones won't cause the ABS unit to drain...And for what its worth, I didn't do all the lines at the same sitting, and I don't recall that I changed the fluid out immediately either...

Thank You Craig - sounds good. I wasn't sure if opening up the wheel circuits would also drain the ABS unit.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jako
...There is a you tube video for the K1200LT "New Brake Line Installation Tip" by Illinois BMW....Best of luck. I also believe the BMW manual states NOT TO USE a vacuum.

YES! I have seen that video.....I've also found a couple on bleeding, too. I have been doing quite a bit of research here as well, lots of info on this site. Thank You for the suggestions!


Quote:
Originally Posted by pbegin@burton
Time? Only takes a few minutes to bleed the wheel circuits.I bled the whole system yesterday.....

I'm super busy the next two weeks and although the wheels may go quickly, the ABS flushing looks to take quite a bit of time, I'm currently too lazy and without a torch to make my own bent box-end wrench (to reach the bleeders on the ABS unit which are inaccessible to 'regular' tools)......also, I don't have a garage right now so I'm doing my work outside which sucks.

AND to top it all off, I'll admit I'm a bit nervous about doing the ABS unit....I bleed the brakes on my Ducati regularly but they are SIMPLE by comparison.

Sheesh....after typing that epiphany, I think I may do the lines myself and then trailer the bike over to Austin Moto Works for the fluid flush...
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  #62  
Old 01-19-2018, 12:56 PM
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Re: Brake Line Installation - Completed

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bergweiserus
I'm currently too lazy and without a torch to make my own bent box-end wrench (to reach the bleeders on the ABS unit which are inaccessible to 'regular' tools)......also, I don't have a garage right now so I'm doing my work outside which sucks.

AND to top it all off, I'll admit I'm a bit nervous about doing the ABS unit....I bleed the brakes on my Ducati regularly but they are SIMPLE by comparison.

Kris, if you want, send me a PM with your address and I can lend you an elegant little wrench made by our member, Beech, which is designed for the ABS unit, and perfect for the job, and I can lend you the funnel that makes it easier to keep the rear master cylinders full of fluid while doing the flush as well. I just did mine so I'm in no rush to get them back.

Alternatively I suspect the Beech still has a handful of these wrenches for sale, and for a very reasonable price. If you're inclined send him a PM and inquire.

And don't let the flush scare you - its fiddly and a PITA, it just requires a bit of focus and patience, but really doesn't take much more than an hour, and a liter of brake fluid to work your way through it.

Craig
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  #63  
Old 01-19-2018, 01:04 PM
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Re: Brake Line Installation - Completed

Probably the prudent thing to do with brakes is the dealer. Bleed pressure is verifiable with their software. And many including me have found themselves in a time consuming pickle when things don't go as planned. And some have even found themselves without a functioning rear brake.

In any case you should talk to your dealer before you dump a bike with owner installed lines on them. They may prefer doing the installation themselves. I'd say about an hour time if the plastics are off the bike.

And there is this they may consider? Some BS from BMW but still a valid service bulletin, sorry no time to edit today:

Service Bulletin
BMW Motorcycles
Bulletin No: 34 002 03 (011)
Date: April 2003
Subject:
Retrofitting steel braided brake lines - Models
equipped with IABS and ABS II

Operating Manager
Sales Department
Accessory Department
Parts Department
Service Department
Motorcycles with Integral ABS
© 2003, BMW of North America, LLC
Page 1 of 2
On motorcycles equipped with Integral ABS (IABS), the entire brake
system is tuned to the complex interaction of ABS, active braking and
residual braking function. The cumulative capacity of the brake system
(brake hoses, brake calipers, etc.) is just one of the factors exercising a
significant effect on the way the brake system operates. The installation
of aftermarket brake hoses, particularly steel braided hoses, can
change this capacity, generally reducing it, changing the way in which
the brake system feels and in some cases, operates.
Wheel Circuit:
Retrofitting aftermarket brake hoses in the
wheel circuit is not permitted
.
Retrofitting aftermarket brake hoses in the wheel circuit (between the
brake pressure modulator and the brake caliper) can affect the residual
braking function of IABS to the extent that if the pressure build up is
very fast, the pressure limiter of the control pressure is triggered and
limits braking pressure in the residual braking function. The result is
that the wheel lock limit cannot be reached.
Retrofits of this nature do not improve braking performance, as the
IABS braking system is active; meaning that the pumps compensate for
the changes in capacity of the brake hoses.

Control Circuit
(between the master cylinder and the pressure modulator):

Retrofitting aftermarket brake hoses to the control circuit can produce
a change in brake feel (metering). In this case BMW is of the opinion
that there are no safety relevant considerations with the regard to the
residual braking function.
Motorcycles with ABS II
IABS Details:
BMW does not approve of the installation of aftermarket brake
hoses in the wheel circuit of BMW motorcycles equipped with
ABS II.
Retrofitting aftermarket brake hoses in the wheel circuit (between the
pressure modulator and the brake caliper) of motorcycles equipped
with ABS II may affect ABS control.
The ABS II system modulates brake pressure by means of volume
changes in the brake circuit. Brake hoses of different manufacturer and
different materials will have different volume pressure characteristics.
ABS II
Details:
Retrofitting aftermarket brake hoses between the handlebar fitting and the ABS modulator
can produce a change in the brake feel (pressure point feel at the brake lever).
However, BMW is of the opinion that in such case there are no safety relevant issues.
For a given volume change, the different volume pressure characteristic of the aftermarket
brake hoses would result in different braking pressure at the wheel. Simply put, the
installation of aftermarket brake hoses can change the control characteristic of the ABS
II control system.
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  #64  
Old 01-19-2018, 01:12 PM
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Re: Brake Line Installation - Completed

Quote:
Originally Posted by CJS350
Kris, if you want, send me a PM with your address and I can lend you an elegant little wrench made by our member, Beech, which is designed for the ABS unit, and perfect for the job, and I can lend you the funnel that makes it easier to keep the rear master cylinders full of fluid while doing the flush as well. I just did mine so I'm in no rush to get them back.

Alternatively I suspect the Beech still has a handful of these wrenches for sale, and for a very reasonable price. If you're inclined send him a PM and inquire.

And don't let the flush scare you - its fiddly and a PITA, it just requires a bit of focus and patience, but really doesn't take much more than an hour, and a liter of brake fluid to work your way through it.

Craig

What’s this tool?
Can you post a pic?
Beech makes the best tools.
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  #65  
Old 01-19-2018, 01:32 PM
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Re: Brake Line Installation - Completed

Quote:
Originally Posted by CJS350
....send me a PM with your address and I can lend you an elegant little wrench made by our member, Beech, which is designed for the ABS unit, and perfect for the job, and I can lend you the funnel....

WOW, that is incredibly gracious of you. Thank you tons. I'll think about this over the weekend and get back to you....I feel like I'll be more comfortable after watching the YouTube videos a few more times.

These are the two videos I've been watching:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TpI05pWUp-Y

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Etex4BpLSKM

That gentleman seems to have a pretty good grip on how it all goes....I especially like the labelling on the ABS unit in 'Part 2'.

.
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  #66  
Old 01-19-2018, 01:43 PM
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Re: Brake Line Installation - Completed

Quote:
Originally Posted by pbegin@burton
...In any case you should talk to your dealer before you dump a bike with owner installed lines on them. They may prefer doing the installation themselves. I'd say about an hour time if the plastics are off the bike.

....that's a good point. I'm committed to installing the lines, so I will most likely do the flush too. I have to talk myself up and into these things, lol....

.
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  #67  
Old 01-19-2018, 02:27 PM
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Re: Brake Line Installation - Completed

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bergweiserus
....that's a good point. I'm committed to installing the lines, so I will most likely do the flush too. I have to talk myself up and into these things, lol....

.

Read the BMW procedure in the BMW service manual under line replacement.And buy an appropriate syringue.Just got my new one cheap/free shipping from China.Only thing is that it took 4 weeks to show up.And that's fast by China Post standards....!

Back to the shop in a sec....2 nuts and one screw+1 connector to reinstall the lower fender piece I usually remove for better access and lighting on all them rear modulator bleeders.
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  #68  
Old 01-19-2018, 02:59 PM
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Re: Brake Line Installation - Completed

Quote:
Originally Posted by mondrage
What’s this tool?
Can you post a pic?
Beech makes the best tools.

I will when I get home. Beech may respond before that. I also have the syringe that Pierre mentions and can lend that as well, although I think I bought it at Pep Boys for about $5.00.

I also have one of these for the ABS unit, it attaches to a 1/4" drive, either a ratchet, or a screwdriver with a 1/4" drive end, but Beech's tool is better, I can lend them both.

in use here,

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  #69  
Old 01-19-2018, 03:45 PM
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Re: Brake Line Installation - Completed

Quote:
Originally Posted by CJS350
I also have one of these for the ABS unit, it attaches to a 1/4" drive, either a ratchet, or a screwdriver with a 1/4" drive end, but Beech's tool is better, I can lend them both.

That's a fancy one! The one in the videos I've been watching is just a straight box wrench bent with a propane torch!

.
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  #70  
Old 01-19-2018, 04:16 PM
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Re: Brake Line Installation - Completed

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bergweiserus
just a straight box wrench bent with a propane torch!

That's what I did...
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  #71  
Old 01-20-2018, 12:09 AM
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Re: Brake Line Installation - Completed

A few photos of Beech's tool for bleeding the ABS units,





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  #72  
Old 01-20-2018, 01:35 PM
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Re: Brake Line Installation - Completed

THAT is SNAZZY!

i just spoke with him. i'm ordering one. Thanks for offering Craig, but i might as well just get my own since i'll probably be doing this again in couple years

.
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  #73  
Old 01-20-2018, 02:11 PM
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Re: Brake Line Installation - Completed

You'll do yourself a favor if you have one of these on hand from Beemer Boneyard, makes the job a whole lot easier,

https://www.beemerboneyard.com/abs3funnel.html


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  #74  
Old 01-20-2018, 06:37 PM
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Re: Brake Line Installation - Completed

Dat be correct, gotta have da funnel thing..worth it..
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As of SEPT-2018,
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  #75  
Old 01-21-2018, 12:45 PM
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Re: Brake Line Installation - Completed

DIY the funnel.One rubber grommet or even clear plastic tubing over the end of my long skinny funnel.I screw it in the reservoir.

Fill with the appropriate quantity of fluid.Attach a graduated "one man brake bleeder"tool at the bleeder and watch level going up as you bleed.100ml in the funnel....stop when 100ml has come out.

Good thing about them "one man bleeder tools" is that they are cheap and let one pump/bleed without having to close the bleeder everytime.

Here is one?$20.00? Guaranteed is that I did not pay that much for mine.

http://www.ebay.ca/itm/like/33246778...&ul_noapp=true

Do not let the level in the reservoirs go down below the Min. mark and continue bleeding.If you do so Low fluid level warning lights will come on later on the road.That's what the syringue is for as per the BMW procedure,

I am doing that too often. Yearly.....all I did this year after 25Ks was to replace perfectly clear DOT4LV fluid that all tested at each port at less than 1% moisture content with more perfectly clear fluid.

Same results ever since I spent <$20.00 a few years ago on a moisture tester.Possibly would have been the same ever since I installed the Spiegler's 8yrs ago in 09?That was a given as soon as I bought the bike the SS lines.

Lit up my tester just like a Xmas tree last year. 03 K1200RS bought by a not too local guy with less than 30Ks.I doubt the fluid had ever been changed and the brake lines were still OEM rubber.
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  #76  
Old 01-23-2018, 04:12 PM
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Re: Brake Line Installation - Completed

...my Spiegler lines arrived today!




.
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  #77  
Old 05-10-2018, 08:51 PM
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Re: Brake Line Installation - Completed

Finally got the time to install those Spiegler lines; just finished. They look great.

The old fluid was brown...blech. Can't wait to get both wheel and ABS circuits flushed and filled with clean stuff.

Also today received my funnel from Beemer Boneyard, looks like it'll make things easier and cleaner as I don't have an extra set of hands.

Anticipating having to backfill the R3 since it's a line replacement.

I'll post the results. Everything so far has been pretty simple and straightforward...only PITA was hack-sawing off that tab holding the 3-way connector mounted to the right fork (my cordless dremel wasn't up to the task apparently).
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  #78  
Old 05-11-2018, 01:43 PM
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Re: Brake Line Installation - Completed

Backfill with the syringue is also the procedure for the front brake lines replacement.As per the BMW service manual.

R3? No need to open any bleeders on the modulator to backfill.But watch the reservoirs levels,they will go up and may overflow.

Backfill done?....proceed with the posted procedure which is btw the same as in the service manual as to bleed sequences.
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  #79  
Old 05-11-2018, 08:26 PM
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Re: Brake Line Installation - Completed

Will definitely backfill with syringe both front and rear wheel circuits and per the following post, i thought it'd be good to backfill from R3 as well:

Quote:
Originally Posted by sailor
if you replace brake hoses, this "normal" bleed procedure is not always enough as you have introduced a lot more air than normal (while brake hose was removed). In these cases, as suggested in the BMW shop-manual, you will need to use a syringe (or another similar device) to PUSH fluid from the ABS-Modulator nipple toward the brake reservoir (back-filling the Control-circuit).

Experience shows that the REAR Control-circuit is the most difficult to bleed after hose change. It is suggested to use the long nipple for rear circuit and push fluid toward side reservoir (see R3 in attached picture). After this, you still need to bleed usual sequence of REAR Control-circuit (R1 , R2 , R3 and R1 again).

For the Wheel-circuit bleeding, using the ignition ON and the power of the modulator, as suggested in Shop-manual, you recycle fluid from Caliper nipple back into white reservoir until all air is out (only needed if you cannot get air out of Wheel-circuit using normal bleed method).

-KB
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Old 05-19-2018, 03:10 PM
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Re: Brake Line Installation - Completed

Quick update:

Bled the front and rear wheel circuits last weekend. No issues except the rear is soft, I'm attributing that to all the air in the system due to replacing the lines.

Today bled the front ABS circuit! TOTAL piece of cake! easy as long as you have BEECH's handy tool, lol....that thing is amazing. Works like a charm.

FLUID WAS THE COLOR OF NEWCASTLE in the wheel and ABS circuits.

Now about to tackle the rear ABS circuit....if the rear brake doesn't firm up, I'll be doing the rear wheel again as I've now got speed bleeders on all 3 calipers making the job super simple.

Things are looking good! thanks for the help everyone.


.
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  #81  
Old 05-19-2018, 03:18 PM
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Re: Brake Line Installation - Completed

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bergweiserus
Quick update:

Bled the front and rear wheel circuits last weekend. No issues except the rear is soft, I'm attributing that to all the air in the system due to replacing the lines.

Today bled the front ABS circuit! TOTAL piece of cake! easy as long as you have BEECH's handy tool, lol....that thing is amazing. Works like a charm.

FLUID WAS THE COLOR OF NEWCASTLE in the wheel and ABS circuits.

Now about to tackle the rear ABS circuit....if the rear brake doesn't firm up, I'll be doing the rear wheel again as I've now got speed bleeders on all 3 calipers making the job super simple.

Things are looking good! thanks for the help everyone.

Be sure to check the levels of the rear two reservoirs after finishing the job and putting a few hundred miles on the bike. I don't know why, but every time I replace the fluid and bleed the brakes, after about 200 miles or so one of the two rear reservoirs goes low, an ounce or two to top it off takes care of it.
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Old 05-19-2018, 07:32 PM
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Re: Brake Line Installation - Completed

Quote:
Originally Posted by CJS350
Be sure to check the levels of the rear two reservoirs after finishing the job and putting a few hundred miles on the bike. I don't know why, but every time I replace the fluid and bleed the brakes, after about 200 miles or so one of the two rear reservoirs goes low, an ounce or two to top it off takes care of it.

Thanks for the suggestion, Craig. I took 'er for a test spin just now and everything works perfectly....i even stomped on the rear brake the see if the ABS would kick in and sure enough it did!

I can't tell you all how satisfied I am at doing the wheel and ABS circuits myself; bleeding my Ducati is nothing compared to this as it is simple by comparison: no ABS and SUPER easy to reach everything....no special tools or anything.

Plus, my girlfriend is impressed

I'll definitely check after 200MI and add more fluid if needed.




.
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  #83  
Old 05-20-2018, 09:41 AM
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pbegin@burton pbegin@burton is online now
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Re: Brake Line Installation - Completed

Don't worry....lights will start flashing if the fluid is low.

That only happened to me the very first time I bled the brakes.At 10 kms and again at 100.But I had brake fluid in the bags so top & go.

Keep stomping on them brakes once in a while? Activating them ABS valves may prevent them from sticking?And emergency braking practices are good.

80-90 mph and slam on the brakes?By the time my helmet gets close to the screen and I start thinking that I may just go over the bars the ABS engages.

As per the BMW service bulletin do not do that repeatedly? Them servo motors use a lot of electricity (17 A).....alternator may not keep up recharging the battery.
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Old 05-20-2018, 01:32 PM
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Re: Brake Line Installation - Completed

Quote:
Originally Posted by pbegin@burton
Keep stomping on them brakes once in a while? Activating them ABS valves may prevent them from sticking?And emergency braking practices are good.

80-90 mph and slam on the brakes?By the time my helmet gets close to the screen and I start thinking that I may just go over the bars the ABS engages

I've been a little reluctant to grab a handful large enough to activate the front ABS in a test run, as the potential for disaster is there....AND I did a (for real) high-side 3 years ago very fresh in my memory still.

However, last year while riding in a pack, I pulled hard enough to activate the front ABS to avoid hitting a rapidly decelerating rider in front of me. Worked perfectly... I am tempted to activate it in a test scenario.


Quote:
Originally Posted by pbegin@burton
Them servo motors use a lot of electricity (17 A).....alternator may not keep up recharging the battery.

THAT would certainly explain my battery being drained while flushing the brake circuits last weekend....

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Old 05-21-2018, 12:05 PM
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pbegin@burton pbegin@burton is online now
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Re: Brake Line Installation - Completed

Yes drained the battery with the servos.If/when I need to use the battery power for servicing brakes or electrical work I put my spare car battery next to the bike and connect the jumper cables.No need for them large jumpers....my 10Ga are more than enough.

And my headlight cut-off switch does come in rather handy at times.

I think you could revive that battery.Procedure for recovery from a deep discharge is in the Odyssey manuals.Could take a while?A series of discharge/recharges and Voltage readings?Probably better off finding a local to you Odyssey battery dealer to do that?

I never felt the need for a specific Odyssey charger in 6yrs.Never drained it much so just topped it with a 2A charger/maintainer when I felt like it,usually at around 12.7x.

It did drag the starter a couple times.From the alarm parasitic draw.Starter relay ended up failing early but not then.But I sure got rid of the alarm.....significant parasitic draw even with the alarm Off.

I did buy a proper "Odyssey approved" charger about 2yrs ago.And kept on getting my battery tested by the Odyssey dealer every year with a proper Odyssey load tester.Passed the test just a few months ago.

But now starting to show signs of age. I don't think it will see a full 9th season that one.Getting old at 210,000 kms.

Now....where the heck is my 4 digits waterproof Voltmeter so I can mount it?On its way from China and taking its time....!
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