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BMW R-Series Discussions of the Boxers EXCEPT the GS/GSA

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  #1  
Old 05-31-2018, 11:45 AM
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Speculation of an R1250 boxer

Saw this article that a new 1250cc boxer engine may be out in 2019. I'm kind of expecting this since the 1200 has had a 13 to 14 year run. It seems that the 1100 and 1150 engines never had that long of a run. Though a major overhaul to the 1200 came with the wet head for 2013, but no size change. Though it's all speculative, the variable valve system sounds interesting if you can increase HP by 20 or so. Either way, now I guess I'll wait another year to upgrade from my 2005 to see what happens here. Any thoughts?
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Old 05-31-2018, 12:19 PM
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Re: Speculation of an R1250 boxer

Another 20 hp would really change the game...
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Old 05-31-2018, 01:23 PM
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Re: Speculation of an R1250 boxer

Quote:
Originally Posted by Louis
Another 20 hp would really change the game...
I agree. I was thinking about going with the k1600GT in 2020, but if this comes out in 2019, and all bugs get worked out, I'd go with one of these, if it's an accurate prediction.
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Old 05-31-2018, 04:04 PM
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Re: Speculation of an R1250 boxer

Thanks droptine for posting this. I will be in the market for a new bike this Fall. With your post in mind, I might be waiting a little longer! 20hp, and the related torque, would be very nice! Still won't compete with the K bikes, but it will do nicely on the RS and RT. If nothing else, it may make prices drop to the "can't pass them up" level on older stock!
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Old 05-31-2018, 04:35 PM
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Re: Speculation of an R1250 boxer

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Originally Posted by RRob
Thanks droptine for posting this. I will be in the market for a new bike this Fall. With your post in mind, I might be waiting a little longer! 20hp, and the related torque, would be very nice! Still won't compete with the K bikes, but it will do nicely on the RS and RT. If nothing else, it may make prices drop to the "can't pass them up" level on older stock!
Myself, only interested in the K1600GT, and R1200RT, not the more sport/naked oriented K or R bikes, and if I'm only looking at the touring models, I agree it won't match a k1600 in measured horse power, but considering the current wet heads are 125 HP, if the article turns out to be accurate and the variable valves can give an increase in HP, plus 50 more CC's, theoretically the new rt could be at 145HP. If you then factor in power to weight ratio of an r1250RT compared to a k1600gt, if this new 1250 gets created would give the k1600 a pretty close drag strip run
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Old 05-31-2018, 04:57 PM
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Re: Speculation of an R1250 boxer

Quote:
Originally Posted by droptine
I agree it won't match a k1600 in measured horse power, but considering the current wet heads are 125 HP, if the article turns out to be accurate and the variable valves can give an increase in HP, plus 50 more CC's, theoretically the new rt could be at 145HP. If you then factor in power to weight ratio of an r1250RT compared to a k1600gt, if this new 1250 gets created would give the k1600 a pretty close drag strip run
Actually, the current wet head R1200R and RS are just as quick as the K16GT in the quarter mile, and much more agile in twisties...
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Old 05-31-2018, 05:20 PM
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Re: Speculation of an R1250 boxer

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Originally Posted by Kneedragger
Actually, the current wet head R1200R and RS are just as quick as the K16GT in the quarter mile, and much more agile in twisties...
What about the wet head rt in the quarter against the K1600gt?
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Old 05-31-2018, 05:28 PM
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Re: Speculation of an R1250 boxer

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kneedragger
Actually, the current wet head R1200R and RS are just as quick as the K16GT in the quarter mile, and much more agile in twisties...

On paper maybe, I've ridden the R1200R and RS and neither comes close to being anywhere near as quick as my K16GTL. I agree the R and RT are more nimble than the GTL but for a 800 lb bike the GTL handles surprisingly well
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Old 05-31-2018, 05:36 PM
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Re: Speculation of an R1250 boxer

On hp to weight, the GS is better than any of the 1600 variants including the GT. It's close but better and all things even being equal on power to weight, the lighter bike wins - easier to tip in, go side to side, and lose speed on the brakes. On tq to weight, the GT has a slight edge with the GS better than any of the other 1600 variants. So even there, the GS is the sporty winner.

And all of that is before the new 1250 engine is released. Without some power upgrade for the 1600 fellas, they're all going to get smoked by a new breed of adventure bikes.

I'm particularly interested in this new engine in an RS package for scratching my sport/touring itch. And if it doesn't happen I'll put bags on my Super Duke 1290R or put street tires back on the GS and call it good for a while.

EDIT: just did the math and the RT has a slightly worse power to weight ratio of the GT but better than the GTL or B model 1600. Again, that's with the current 1200 engine, fully wet and ready to ride.
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Old 05-31-2018, 05:39 PM
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Re: Speculation of an R1250 boxer

Oh, and I'll add to the discussion that the sales manager at my dealer called me last week and said he's taking deposits on the R1250GS to be delivered this fall. I think I'll wait a year to see how it goes to juice the R engine to 150 hp. I've got another year on my GS warranty and it's set up just like I like it.
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Old 05-31-2018, 06:25 PM
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Re: Speculation of an R1250 boxer

I don't see the link to the article, but I had read something about that a few weeks ago.


I've always said that my R1200RTW could use an extra 15-20 ponies, and that with that (and a bit less bulbous faring) it would be one hell of a bike for touring.


It's already not too bad, but a bit more slender would make here more pleasing to the eye.
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Old 05-31-2018, 07:02 PM
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Re: Speculation of an R1250 boxer

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Originally Posted by HDF
.......I've always said that my R1200RTW could use an extra 15-20 ponies, and that with that (and a bit less bulbous faring) it would be one hell of a bike for touring.

And given the output of the twin cylinder Ducatis and KTMs, 150-160 reliable hp should be easy to achieve
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Old 05-31-2018, 08:35 PM
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Re: Speculation of an R1250 boxer

That would bring it up in line with the S1XR and S1R and would def put a GS on the list of possible next bikes for me
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Old 05-31-2018, 08:49 PM
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Re: Speculation of an R1250 boxer

Quote:
Originally Posted by droptine
What about the wet head rt in the quarter against the K1600gt?
The RT is 90 lbs heavier than an RS, so it wouldn't fare as well... I don't know exact figures...
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Old 05-31-2018, 09:37 PM
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Re: Speculation of an R1250 boxer

Quote:
Originally Posted by wellcraft
I've ridden the R1200R and RS and neither comes close to being anywhere near as quick as my K16GTL.
I'll trust the numbers over an illusion. In power to weight and torque to weight ratios, the R1200RS is significantly better...
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Old 05-31-2018, 10:43 PM
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Re: Speculation of an R1250 boxer

Quote:
Originally Posted by HDF
I don't see the link to the article, but I had read something about that a few weeks ago.


I've always said that my R1200RTW could use an extra 15-20 ponies, and that with that (and a bit less bulbous faring) it would be one hell of a bike for touring.


It's already not too bad, but a bit more slender would make here more pleasing to the eye.
yes, but without that faring, it wouldn't contain the creature comforts that it currently does, plus the weather protection of the faring. I also think if the RT faring was smaller, it wouldn't streamline well with tupperware that surrounds the protruding engine cylinders.
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Old 06-01-2018, 06:10 AM
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Re: Speculation of an R1250 boxer

Quote:
Originally Posted by droptine
yes, but without that faring, it wouldn't contain the creature comforts that it currently does, plus the weather protection of the faring. I also think if the RT faring was smaller, it wouldn't streamline well with tupperware that surrounds the protruding engine cylinders.




It's that tupperware surrounding the cylinders and fuel tank that I most object to - which leads to the need to have the big fat bulbous front fairing to balance out the look.


Personally, I would like something mid-way between the RT and the RS - a bit more wind flow, but keeping the RT's Telelever suspension. Basically, something a bit sportier looking, but still with some of the creature comforts of the RT. (Plus 20+ ponies, of course).


But since BMW isn't likely to make that, and as long as 2-up riding forms a big part of my travels, the RT will have to do.
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Old 06-01-2018, 06:57 AM
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Re: Speculation of an R1250 boxer

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Originally Posted by Kneedragger
I'll trust the numbers over an illusion. In power to weight and torque to weight ratios, the R1200RS is significantly better...

Riding each bike is no illusion, the illusion is what you see on paper while actually riding each bike is reality. Last summer I was looking for a second bike and test rode the R1200R/RS and passed on each because they were much slower than my GTL.
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Old 06-01-2018, 08:41 AM
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Re: Speculation of an R1250 boxer

Feeling fast and being fast are two different things
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Old 06-01-2018, 08:45 AM
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Re: Speculation of an R1250 boxer

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Originally Posted by Kneedragger
I'll trust the numbers over an illusion. In power to weight and torque to weight ratios, the R1200RS is significantly better...
The RS is better if your 5’9” and shorter...... I’m 6’4” with a 35” inseam and I’ll take my K16GT any and everyday over the wetheada.
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Old 06-01-2018, 09:14 AM
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Re: Speculation of an R1250 boxer

Don't get me wrong guys, I loved my GT and still believe if you need to cross a continent at warp speed there's nothing close to it on the market. It's amazing how comfortable and stable that bike feels running at 90+ mph for hours on end. Been there, done that - when you live on the right coast of the US and want to ride on the left coast, there's a lot of Flatistan to cross to get there and an interstate ballistic missile is the thing to ride. I still say if you've got a thousand miles to ride to get to the twisties, and then you want to get frisky when you get there, the GT is a great choice.

Now that I've owned and put a lot of miles on both, I'm pretty happy with my GS and not looking back anytime soon. The GS is a frisky ride with lots of ground clearance.
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Old 06-01-2018, 10:59 AM
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Re: Speculation of an R1250 boxer

Quote:
Originally Posted by KrisMaRider
The RS is better if your 5’9” and shorter...... I’m 6’4” with a 35” inseam and I’ll take my K16GT any and everyday over the wethead.
I'm 5'9", so the RS fits me fine. To be clear, I think the KGT is an awesome bike and I could even imagine one as my future touring machine. But for my tastes, it's too big as a primary bike because I enjoy spirited sport riding... that's why I have the S1000R in my garage also, but the RS is more suitable to me as a primary bike...
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Old 06-01-2018, 11:01 AM
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Re: Speculation of an R1250 boxer

Quote:
Originally Posted by wellcraft
Riding each bike is no illusion, the illusion is what you see on paper while actually riding each bike is reality. Last summer I was looking for a second bike and test rode the R1200R/RS and passed on each because they were much slower than my GTL.
Sure they are...

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Old 06-01-2018, 01:43 PM
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Re: Speculation of an R1250 boxer

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Feeling fast and being fast are two different things




I agree and as long as I know I'm going fast and you think you're going fast we can both be happy
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Old 06-01-2018, 01:48 PM
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Re: Speculation of an R1250 boxer

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Originally Posted by PittsDriverWes
Now that I've owned and put a lot of miles on both, I'm pretty happy with my GS and not looking back anytime soon. The GS is a frisky ride with lots of ground clearance.




I'm going to be following in your footsteps, hopefully in the next month or so, and add a GS to my garage but I'm also holding on to my GTL. BMW has some nice incentives for leftover non-TFT 2017 GS's plus a free NAV VI. My local dealership has a couple 2017 GS's for just over 18K. I'd like the TFT display but for the savings I'll go along with the analog display.
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Old 06-01-2018, 03:20 PM
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Re: Speculation of an R1250 boxer

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Originally Posted by Kneedragger
I'm 5'9", so the RS fits me fine. To be clear, I think the KGT is an awesome bike and I could even imagine one as my future touring machine. But for my tastes, it's too big as a primary bike because I enjoy spirited sport riding... that's why I have the S1000R in my garage also, but the RS is more suitable to me as a primary bike...

I wanted the R1200RS to be my next bike but after a day of riding one mixed interstate and backroads it just wasn’t comfortable enough for the type of riding I do. It is my favorite out of the current R bike designs.
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Old 06-01-2018, 11:45 PM
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Re: Speculation of an R1250 boxer

Quote:
Originally Posted by droptine
Saw this article that a new 1250cc boxer engine may be out in 2019. I'm kind of expecting this since the 1200 has had a 13 to 14 year run. It seems that the 1100 and 1150 engines never had that long of a run. Though a major overhaul to the 1200 came with the wet head for 2013, but no size change. Though it's all speculative, the variable valve system sounds interesting if you can increase HP by 20 or so. Either way, now I guess I'll wait another year to upgrade from my 2005 to see what happens here. Any thoughts?

The only problem with another 20hp is getting rid of the heat generated with it. The Boxer could put out 200hp if you could keep it cool.

soo fully water cooled boxer? That'd make a Subaru
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Old 06-02-2018, 12:11 AM
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Re: Speculation of an R1250 boxer

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Originally Posted by thirsty 1

soo fully water cooled boxer? That'd make a Subaru




I would be happy with fully water cooling the new boxer.
I thought it was odd they only water cooled the heads on the current model.
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Old 06-02-2018, 08:17 AM
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Re: Speculation of an R1250 boxer

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soo fully water cooled boxer? That'd make a Subaru

Bwahahahaha!!!
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Old 06-02-2018, 12:03 PM
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Re: Speculation of an R1250 boxer

Is BMW hit by the H-D syndrome??i-e just add cc to to an allready taxed concept? The new wethead engines are VERY complicated and will not last, or ‘’age’’ as well as the older oilheads or airheads.
These huge cylinders must be balanced and all At this point, a 4 cylinders makes more sense, just saying
And I had them all , oilhead, wethead, K-GT
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Old 06-02-2018, 01:37 PM
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Re: Speculation of an R1250 boxer

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Originally Posted by OILHEAD
Is BMW hit by the H-D syndrome??i-e just add cc to to an allready taxed concept? The new wethead engines are VERY complicated and will not last, or ‘’age’’ as well as the older oilheads or airheads.
These huge cylinders must be balanced and all At this point, a 4 cylinders makes more sense, just saying
And I had them all , oilhead, wethead, K-GT


I concur, I think BMW is at the fall off point of diminishing returns for reliability with power on the boxer. Sure you can get more power but the reliability suffers or the cost goes up. Or both.



My 2008 GSA crosses continents just fine with that 10 gallon tank and is relatively easy to work on. It gets to 90 quick enough and can stay there all day. Cruise control would be nice but I don't want to trade that for Ride by wire or the extra complexity of an aftermarket system.



The 4-cylinder is better when playing in traffic. The extra power really helps in dealing I-5 idiots.
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Old 06-02-2018, 06:19 PM
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Re: Speculation of an R1250 boxer

It is time for an S1000S, and an S1000RT.
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Old 06-02-2018, 11:12 PM
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Re: Speculation of an R1250 boxer

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Originally Posted by kvr929rr
I concur, I think BMW is at the fall off point of diminishing returns for reliability with power on the boxer. Sure you can get more power but the reliability suffers or the cost goes up. Or both.



My 2008 GSA crosses continents just fine with that 10 gallon tank and is relatively easy to work on. It gets to 90 quick enough and can stay there all day. Cruise control would be nice but I don't want to trade that for Ride by wire or the extra complexity of an aftermarket system.



The 4-cylinder is better when playing in traffic. The extra power really helps in dealing I-5 idiots.


And so what if reliability and power go up and none is the loss? Then its ok..? I ride an oilhead 1150GSA that's as reliable as a stone. I like my oilhead but its gutless.

The only real problem I see is BMW making a watercooled boxer that has no identity. Just like HD and the VRod. does it work. Yes, but, it seems like it's trying to hard and failing at that.
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Old 06-02-2018, 11:49 PM
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Re: Speculation of an R1250 boxer

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Originally Posted by thirsty 1
And so what if reliability and power go up and none is the loss? Then its ok..? I ride an oilhead 1150GSA that's as reliable as a stone. I like my oilhead but its gutless.

The only real problem I see is BMW making a watercooled boxer that has no identity. Just like HD and the VRod. does it work. Yes, but, it seems like it's trying to hard and failing at that.


Not sure you understood my point. The bigger the displacement the harder it is to make it reliable. At some point BMW isn't going to be able to add power, meet emissions, keep it reliable, lightweight and cost effective. The 3 or 4 cylinder option starts to become more rational from a business/development viewpoint. I think they're getting close but they may be able to glean some of the new car ideas to extend it's life a bit.



I'm not one for the brand identifiers (boxer, beak, whatever...) because in reality they don't mean squat. I just want them to work well. If Honda or Harley had come out with an opposed twin adventure bike I'd look at it for how it worked for me. Likewise if BMW came out with an undersquare 800cc supercharged V-4 I'd consider it if it suited the riding I did.
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Old 06-03-2018, 01:08 AM
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Re: Speculation of an R1250 boxer

Well dude you couldn't be further from the truth . I've been working for an engine manufacturer for the last 25 years and I can tell you EVERYTHING has become lighter, more compact, and powerful .! With proper engineering and testing anything is of what you say it isn't.

A lot of the emission can be taken care of with valve and injection timing along with compression ratios and aftertreatment. I'd like to get ahold of California and shove most of that shit up their bunghole.

I can see a fully W/C boxer but then it becomes a different animal. IE Subaru. Same goes for a 4 banger version. soobee.. Alla sudden; shit! what in the hell did I buy! because it's not really like the bikes of old. And if they can pull that off in a positive way making a Boner Shwing bike..I'll take one because well the oilhead is a gutless bitch but I love the old girl.

Power means heat and that heat needs to go somewhere.
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Old 06-03-2018, 08:52 AM
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Re: Speculation of an R1250 boxer

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Originally Posted by Lee
I would be happy with fully water cooling the new boxer.
I thought it was odd they only water cooled the heads on the current model.

I though the new boxer engine was completely watered cooled but it's interesting to find out only the heads are water cooled. So how effective is it just to have the heads water cooled compared to the old boxer engines that were just oil/air cooled? Several years ago I had a loaner r1150r from Mortons BMW and got caught in DC traffic and the temperature was north of 90. The engine started to run rough, cough and I was afraid it was going to overheat so I rode the shoulder to the next exit and took another route home. Would the same thing happen with the new water cooled engine or is having water cooled heads sufficient to operate in congested traffic and not overheat?
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Old 06-04-2018, 12:20 PM
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Re: Speculation of an R1250 boxer

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Originally Posted by wellcraft
I though the new boxer engine was completely watered cooled but it's interesting to find out only the heads are water cooled. So how effective is it just to have the heads water cooled compared to the old boxer engines that were just oil/air cooled? Several years ago I had a loaner r1150r from Mortons BMW and got caught in DC traffic and the temperature was north of 90. The engine started to run rough, cough and I was afraid it was going to overheat so I rode the shoulder to the next exit and took another route home. Would the same thing happen with the new water cooled engine or is having water cooled heads sufficient to operate in congested traffic and not overheat?
Well, on this matter I can reassure you: the wethead stands the heat very well
Leaving the Kentucky rallye, Martin and I floored it on the highway going south for a few hundred miles before getting stuck in HEAVY City traffic at 95F, the temp gauge never went higher than usual.
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Old 06-04-2018, 12:29 PM
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Re: Speculation of an R1250 boxer

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Originally Posted by thirsty 1
Well dude you couldn't be further from the truth . I've been working for an engine manufacturer for the last 25 years and I can tell you EVERYTHING has become lighter, more compact, and powerful .! With proper engineering and testing anything is of what you say it isn't.
I agree with you BUT: engineering is NOT the main thing in most of the manufacturing these days When the beans counters put their nose in, you can be sure every single mechanical part will be shaved to its minimum and, you know what happens...
BMW Motorrad is no exception
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Old 06-04-2018, 02:57 PM
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Re: Speculation of an R1250 boxer

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Originally Posted by OILHEAD
Well, on this matter I can reassure you: the wethead stands the heat very well
Leaving the Kentucky rallye, Martin and I floored it on the highway going south for a few hundred miles before getting stuck in HEAVY City traffic at 95F, the temp gauge never went higher than usual.

Thanks that's good information to know
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Old 06-05-2018, 03:05 AM
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Re: Speculation of an R1250 boxer

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Originally Posted by thirsty 1
Well dude you couldn't be further from the truth . I've been working for an engine manufacturer for the last 25 years and I can tell you EVERYTHING has become lighter, more compact, and powerful .! With proper engineering and testing anything is of what you say it isn't.
I like bmws


So based on your statement we can expect a reliable (100,000 mile) 300 hp normally aspirated boxer that weighs 45 kg. with pneumatic valves, Ti rods and MMC pistons in a bike for under $20,000? Hmm. Sign me up. I'll take two.
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Old 06-05-2018, 08:09 AM
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Re: Speculation of an R1250 boxer

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Originally Posted by thirsty 1
.....soo fully water cooled boxer? That'd make a Subaru

And here I was thinking that BMW was first with the boxer
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Old 06-05-2018, 03:21 PM
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Re: Speculation of an R1250 boxer

Well get ready, here is some good reading. Seems maybe we will see variable valve lift soon also, which is huge. Toss those throttle bodies.

https://www.bennetts.co.uk/bikesocia...50rt-vvt-spied
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Old 06-05-2018, 11:54 PM
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Re: Speculation of an R1250 boxer

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Originally Posted by kvr929rr
So based on your statement we can expect a reliable (100,000 mile) 300 hp normally aspirated boxer that weighs 45 kg. with pneumatic valves, Ti rods and MMC pistons in a bike for under $20,000? Hmm. Sign me up. I'll take two.

Indeed my friend!! Indeed!! Drop me a line cause i'm on the list too!! doubt it'll be under 20k though! I'm thinking a second on house will suffice!!
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Old 06-12-2018, 12:11 PM
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Re: Speculation of an R1250 boxer

Quote:
Originally Posted by OILHEAD
Well, on this matter I can reassure you: the wethead stands the heat very well
Leaving the Kentucky rallye, Martin and I floored it on the highway going south for a few hundred miles before getting stuck in HEAVY City traffic at 95F, the temp gauge never went higher than usual.
I just returned from a 2400 mile road trip on my R12RS. Riding through some 100 degree temps at the 80 mph speed limit in Colorado and Utah, the engine temp never went above 190 degrees.
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Old 06-12-2018, 01:37 PM
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Re: Speculation of an R1250 boxer

Last Saturday I rode down to SSBMW to see my pal Wayne. Popped a new R1200RS up on the center stand and proceeded to sit on it. Got both feet on the pegs, no sweat! (Thank you YMCA!!) It felt JUST LIKE my great old '98 K1200RS. Brendan walked by, and knowing that he has a S1000XR and has ridden every motorcycle in the shop, I asked him how the performance of the R1200RS would compare to my S1000XR. He said it's not nearly as quick as the XR. Too bad. Maybe the new engine will help.

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Old 06-12-2018, 04:00 PM
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Re: Speculation of an R1250 boxer

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Originally Posted by Paughco
Last Saturday I rode down to SSBMW to see my pal Wayne. Popped a new R1200RS up on the center stand and proceeded to sit on it. Got both feet on the pegs, no sweat! (Thank you YMCA!!) It felt JUST LIKE my great old '98 K1200RS. Brendan walked by, and knowing that he has a S1000XR and has ridden every motorcycle in the shop, I asked him how the performance of the R1200RS would compare to my S1000XR. He said it's not nearly as quick as the XR. Too bad. Maybe the new engine will help.

Seeya
ATB
No matter what you ride, there will always be something faster, and that has become less important to me as the years go by, although I have my S1000R when I feel the need for speed.

I try to look at the overall package and its intended use. My R1200RS is my current long distance touring bike. I have taken my S1000R on a 2000+ mile road trip, and it was great fun. But for touring, I prefer the 92 ft/lbs of torque at 6500 rpm over the 83 ft/lbs of torque at 9250 rpm of the S1000... different strokes...
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