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"K13S/R" Technical Q&A K1200S/R Technical Questions/Answers

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  #61  
Old 07-07-2015, 05:26 AM
bmwpdrider bmwpdrider is offline
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Wink Re: K1300s clutch problems

I am sure there are at least a thousand guys waiting for 4hundred4 coming up with a mod for our clutches. I went for a ride two days ago, absolutely wonderful day but occasional clutch noise leaves me waiting for a solution. You certainly have me waiting anxiously for an upgrade.

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  #62  
Old 07-07-2015, 12:30 PM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

I think he has pretty much done that. At least he stated what is needed to be done to the shaft so the clutch oils properly.
Any chance of an actual diagram and part number so we can buy the shaft, have it machined and make the swap fourhundredfour?
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  #63  
Old 07-07-2015, 07:02 PM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Excellent tutorials and documenting the work. Thank you for your time.

Couple of questions:

If the hole in the shaft is not adequate to supply the sufficient oil to the inside of the hub with the holes passing the oil to the plates, does that mean there is no need to do anything else with the hub? I recall seeing in one of the youtube links, the hole closest to the shoulder was too far, not lined up with the first plate.

Next is, if the cause of the symptoms are originated from the lack of sufficient oil flow to the plates to "was and clean" the generated plate dust which in turn becomes like a paste polluting up the plates, how would this explain these clutch symptoms to be present from brand new?
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  #64  
Old 07-07-2015, 07:25 PM
bmwpdrider bmwpdrider is offline
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

DOA - There was an explanation by 4Hundred4 that a sprung spacer under the first clutch plate had an effect on the throw out length of the clutch lever. I am keen to see that fixed as well.

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  #65  
Old 07-07-2015, 08:09 PM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Been away for a few days. Now catching up here with keyboard and email to find many questions. Tried a few responses from the smart phone to PM's but not good so sorry to those who might not have a complete response.

When I went inside the 2006 R I was not aware but BMW seem to have changed the "thrust adapter" around March 2006. Thrust Adapter is the BMW name for that pin which takes the load from the cylinder to the thrust bearing. The pin with part extending down the hollow shaft to stabilise the bearing in the disc pressure spring.

The version in my videos would have been the one with L (length) 72.05mm. Part 21527702448

Thrust adapter. L=72,05MM
K 1200 R. From 03/2006 . Required: 1
K 1200 GT. Required: 1
K 1200 S. From 03/2006 . Required: 1
K 1200 R Sport. Required: 1

There is another part listed for earlier engines with L (length) 22.5mm. Part number 21527680648

Thrust adapter. L=22,5MM
K 1200 S. Up To 03/2006 . Required: 1
K 1200 R. Up To 03/2006 . Required: 1

If the "L" refers to the overall length (the one I had out was 72mm long) then earlier engines did not have a section extending down the hollow shaft.

Can anyone confirm seeing this earlier pin (thrust adapter) and remember if it was short. Perhaps also remember if the shaft was open at the end?

The standard pin section from the 2006 R I had open was ground or machined with three flats on the round pin when standard. I reduced the diameter of the pin section to about 6mm for all but the very end 8mm or so. This left the end furthest into the shaft at the original diameter to provide the intended support from the wall of the shaft. I also grooved the three remaining flats to reduce the restriction to the oil passing down the hollow shaft.

Now since finding the above I have also been contacted by an owner with a what appears top be a third standard design for the Thrust Adapter. This was the 72mm long pin but with no sign of the three flats on the section that slides into the shaft. No flats but one single deep groove milled from end to end in the circumference of the pin. Hard to know without seeing this or being able to test if it flowed more or less oil than their other two designs. Anyone else seen this version of the pin (thrust adapter)?


Please don't be put off if any owner is contemplating a look at their clutch linings and which level of lubrication they have. This adapter can be reached by removing just the clutch cover and lifting out the thrust bearing from the disc pressure spring. To remove the friction and steel plates will require the hub holding firm while the 30mm nut is undone (yes its a tight one but not so bad) but the clutch basket does not need to be taken off the gearbox shaft to allow inspection of the plate pack. The basket has a pre-loaded scissor gear meshing with the crankshaft, a similar arrangement meshing with the starter/alternator drive gear and then a fussy coupling to drive the oil pump drive gear at its rear. Pulling it out not so bad. A three handed well planned jiggle to get it back so avoid unless it has to come off for some reason.

Yes the update I gave shows progress in the right directions. However I need a report back from that owner now its covered more miles to see if that is still the case.

I also agreed with owner to look into how the actuating mechanism might be changed to shift the bite point closer to the handle bar. Please also note this bikes standard clutch lamellar pack did not have the later engines anti chatter spring and special friction plate fitted. We are going to try this and understand how much it alters the feel of the clutch and bite point.

Be useful going back in to see if the changed lubrication has left any visible signs inside.

Have to change one thing at a time to be certain its a genuine improvement and then decide which to try again and eventually recommend.
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  #66  
Old 07-07-2015, 08:38 PM
fourhundred4 fourhundred4 is offline
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Quote:
Originally Posted by RuhiA
Excellent tutorials and documenting the work. Thank you for your time.

Couple of questions:

If the hole in the shaft is not adequate to supply the sufficient oil to the inside of the hub with the holes passing the oil to the plates, does that mean there is no need to do anything else with the hub? I recall seeing in one of the youtube links, the hole closest to the shoulder was too far, not lined up with the first plate.
Vg
In the case of this bike it looked as if the majority of friction plate surfaces had a poor oil supply. The one against the alloy hub (only fed by oil hole close to shoulder) that was pasted up receiving little or no oil supply at all. Seemed the right thing to do and ensure their was an oil route to that plate. I should add that my suspicions are this engine ran much of the time with cold gearbox oil and clutch using 10w oil rather than 5W.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RuhiA
Next is, if the cause of the symptoms are originated from the lack of sufficient oil flow to the plates to "was and clean" the generated plate dust which in turn becomes like a paste polluting up the plates, how would this explain these clutch symptoms to be present from brand new?

Could be poorly oiled and lubricated clutch plates from new and the clutch got worse as the pasting up increased. Recently had a report from an owner with the poor feel but no sign of the paste. Just dry looking plates so might not be the paste. I'm also puzzled as to why BMW never fitted anti chatter springs in these clutch packs. That might be all they need and we see them in the later bikes. That test is coming soon.
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  #67  
Old 07-08-2015, 03:00 PM
fourhundred4 fourhundred4 is offline
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Quote:
Originally Posted by bmwpdrider
I am sure there are at least a thousand guys waiting for 4hundred4 coming up with a mod for our clutches. I went for a ride two days ago, absolutely wonderful day but occasional clutch noise leaves me waiting for a solution. You certainly have me waiting anxiously for an upgrade.

Garry

Can't eat the whole elephant at once but I hope a handful of owners at the least rather than a thousand. Its early days in the development but owner interest has now spurred me into tracking down a manufacturer for the springs required to rebuild the baskets. Have also secured a supply of the anti shudder spring so this can be added to the earlier engines friction pack. Now do I place an order for these parts and wait? Perhaps a few are ready to try one or both elements of the modification. Then I can at least order knowing the cost will eventually be covered by the end.

I've only had the 1200 engines clutches open to date. Is there an owner of a 1300 with these issues looking to have them attended to?
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  #68  
Old 07-08-2015, 08:05 PM
bmwpdrider bmwpdrider is offline
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

I have no intention to cause you to push beyond what is reasonable for you to achieve a solution for us. I will have to do my own research on my 1200GT so I know what I will need. I wouldn't expect you to stock any parts until you have firm orders. If it was possible to get an estimate of the cost of parts would helpful. I have great admiration for your knowledge and work.

Regards

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  #69  
Old 07-10-2015, 01:13 AM
fourhundred4 fourhundred4 is offline
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Thank you Gary. I'm drawn by all this rather than pushed. Its what I enjoy. Odd but true. Been nutting problems with transmissions and similar out for forty years.

I finalised the design and ordered the sets of springs to rebuild both the 1200 and 1300 clutch baskets. Going to be hand made due to their heavy wire gauge. We also came up with changes to their ends so they don't damage themselves like the originals. Will be using the same wire as for engine valve springs.

I often use eBay listings to get a look at used parts and how they fair after some service. Came across this now ended listing for the complete clutch pack. The pictures show a gummed up polluted friction plate much like I found in this owners bike. Zoom in on picture number six. http://www.ebay.ie/itm/2006-BMW-K120...-/400936000759

Actual image I think - http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MTA2NVgxNjAw/z/0MYAAOSwBLlVeYGs/$_57.JPG

Pictures also confirm the pack does not have a the anti judder spring and modified friction plate of the later lamellar packs. I'm just about to fit one in the stock K1200R here so will share what I find later.
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  #70  
Old 07-20-2015, 03:20 PM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

When I owned my K1200RS, I could find hundreds of You Tube Videos of repair procedures for just about anything on the bike.

The KRS does NOT have that luxury yet. I found a clutch vid that I will post here. They are not K1200/K1300 clutches but, still a BMW WET clutch exactly like ours.

Clutch Disk Replacement:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=csa4FVyvWD8

I will look for more.

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  #71  
Old 07-20-2015, 05:05 PM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Fourhundred,

I replaced the clutch pack on my 06/2006 K12R.

The clutch was slipping on 6th, 5th, and then down to the other gears when I replaced it.
Also, the action was way out there on the lever.

I took apart the old lamellar package and notiched that only the disk at the bottom was worn. All others had a lot of life in them.
Also, the whole thing was covered in that clutch "dust" or paste.

Anyways, replaced it, and it has been great. (also sent the tranny to be fixed)

Because I own a K12R, ... many things happened and I ended up buying a newer engine (allegedly 16K miles), mine had 53K miles when I took it out.
The new engine had a gearbox that slips, and the clutch exhibits:
- Shudder, long pull from the lever, more vibration.

The one on my replaced engine is butter smooth.

So, I need to put my re-worked tranny on my new engine. I was going to also replace the clutch. I don't know the state of the current clutch, so perhaps there's hope.

I would like to purchase the springs for two clutch baskets.
As well as two set of anti-shudder "spring" rings.

I'll wait until to do this job until you have some parts.

Don't live in the US, so it takes a good month for me to receive anything.

I probably shouldn't spend any more time or dough on this bike, but ... you should look at the poor thing, just waiting for me to fix it (yet again).
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  #72  
Old 07-21-2015, 09:29 AM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Curlee
When I owned my K1200RS, I could find hundreds of You Tube Videos of repair procedures for just about anything on the bike.

The KRS does NOT have that luxury yet. I found a clutch vid that I will post here. They are not K1200/K1300 clutches but, still a BMW WET clutch exactly like ours.

Clutch Disk Replacement:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=csa4FVyvWD8

I will look for more.

Bill

A very informative video you found there Bill. Its exactly the same clutch I had in that K1200R that was here a few weeks ago. Guy makes a complicated job of it with that crankshaft locking tool which is not required. The clutch hub locking tool (long bar with ring) is a must have to avoid damage to the gearbox. Those electric impact wrenches might also be able to deliver enough torque to get that nut off. Note the use of a thin wall socket for the large nut in the middle. Some normal sockets might be too large a diameter to fit through the ring. Not to worry though. The six socket head screws holding the disc spring can be undone so the disc can be removed allowing the strongest of sockets to used.

Surprisingly there is no mention why only that one side of one friction plate had all its friction material worn away. Every other friction surface looked to be in good serviceable condition. Much like Mondrage describes in his post before this. Looks to me as if that plate was the same one (first friction to be fitted - outer most of the pack) as was pasted up with its own cast off lining in the clutch I stripped recently. This was due to a gross lack of oil to keep the wet clutch wet. Rather expensive pointless job fitting the new plate pack without sorting out why the old one failed in such a peculiar way. Further evidence for me of poor wet clutch lubrication and the shops which should by now know better failing to address the problem. I doubt the different looking friction material and 50% reduced oil ways in the Barnett friction plates would do much to improve matters either.

Will post here when the revised clutch basket load springs arrive. The baskets are very delicate and their castings break at the slightest slip when opening them up.

I replaced the problem friction plate in the K1200R here with a different design which also incorporated the anti judder spring. The start of the bite point is now about half way out from the bar and bites completely close to where it used to start. The feel of the clutch has changed so much for the better. These should be available soon. Can be used with the original BMW plates or in conjunction with new ones from Barnett when required.

Forgot to mention. I took a comprehensive set of pictures so I could make a downloadable set of instructions for changing the plates. And also to use when going to the next stage of changing out a clutch basket. Does the forum have somewhere I can store pictures and words. Perhaps a thread of its own would work for the words but storing the pictures somewhere everlasting would be required. Youtube is great but do we have WiFi in the garage and I imagine repeated start and pause at just the right time with oil on the fingers is not the best.
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  #73  
Old 07-21-2015, 11:48 AM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

So, how can the lubrication be improved?

Is there also a way to reuse the clutch pack with only one plate worn?
Can the worn plate just be put in the middle of the pack?
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  #74  
Old 07-21-2015, 11:51 AM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

I have procrastinated on changing my clutch for far far to long. Mainly because, I cant in my simple mind rationalize why such a low mileage clutch on such a finely crafted expensive German machine has FAILED. I don't want to throw in a new clutch just to have the same issue happen again in a very short time.

After reading "fourhundred4" excellent research, reading all the inputs from forum members and watching the Vid,, I have a better feeling on what is going on (going wrong) with our clutches.

Most likely just one of the friction disks is worn the hell out, just like the one shown in that video. I also believe that some of the friction disk material was clogging up the other friction disks.

My intentions are to disassemble my clutch, inspect it for failed components, do some oiling improvements to the hub, and reassemble it with new Barnett Clutch components.

fourhundred4

Any idea why that ONE single friction disk would take the most abuse??


Thanks

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Old 07-22-2015, 07:22 AM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Quote:
Originally Posted by mondrage
So, how can the lubrication be improved?

Is there also a way to reuse the clutch pack with only one plate worn?
Can the worn plate just be put in the middle of the pack?

There's a picture of one extra hole can be drilled in the clutch hub back in this thread. Needs that extra hole as close to the face as you can drill without catching the face.

The centre part that slides into the end of the gearbox shaft can also be reduced in diameter for much of its length. This aids the flow of oil from the end of the shaft. In one of the youtube videos.

You need at least one new plate. The worn one can not be used again. That's assuming its as bad as in the latest youtube video Bill Curlee posted.

I'm able to make a separate clutch plate and also one that incorporates the anti judder spring to improve the feel. Can be used with the original BMW plates or in conjunction with new plates from Barnett when required. They will be about 170 after the handling, work and post but worth it for the improved feel.
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Old 07-22-2015, 07:31 AM
fourhundred4 fourhundred4 is offline
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Curlee
.......
My intentions are to disassemble my clutch, inspect it for failed components, do some oiling improvements to the hub, and reassemble it with new Barnett Clutch components.

fourhundred4

Any idea why that ONE single friction disk would take the most abuse??


Thanks

Bill

That last plates friction surface wears away because it not getting much or any oil at all. The worn off lining material make a paste with a little oil and pollutes the friction surface. No doubt it also mixes with a little aluminium worn from the face of the hub. An abrasive mix that wears it away so much faster that the rest.

Doubt it would happen at all if the oil flow was adequate. Would wash the old lining material away.
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Old 07-23-2015, 07:05 PM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Quote:
Originally Posted by fourhundred4
There's a picture of one extra hole can be drilled in the clutch hub back in this thread. Needs that extra hole as close to the face as you can drill without catching the face.

The centre part that slides into the end of the gearbox shaft can also be reduced in diameter for much of its length. This aids the flow of oil from the end of the shaft. In one of the youtube videos.

You need at least one new plate. The worn one can not be used again. That's assuming its as bad as in the latest youtube video Bill Curlee posted.

I'm able to make a separate clutch plate and also one that incorporates the anti judder spring to improve the feel. Can be used with the original BMW plates or in conjunction with new plates from Barnett when required. They will be about 170 after the handling, work and post but worth it for the improved feel.


Do you have any detailed pictures of the seperate clutch plate that you speak of?? Im confused at what you are calling the JUDDER PLATE.

The spring that compresses clutch pack is just a fancy beleaview spring. When the clutch slave cyl presses on the center portion of that spring the outer part of the spring bends outward and releases pressure on the clutch pack.

What does the extra plate that you have do??

Im going to try to add some additional HUB Oiling Holes to allow oil to get to :

1. That outer most friction disk that wears first.
2. Other disk in the hub that dont have holes.

What do you think about slightly enlarging the diameter of the already drilled holes??

I also want to slightly bevel the area above each oil hole to allow oil to allow oil to get into each oil hole easier.

Do you have a better picture of the machining that was done to the centre part that slides into the end of the gearbox shaft?

Thank You again

Bill
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Old 07-27-2015, 01:12 PM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Curlee
Do you have any detailed pictures of the seperate clutch plate that you speak of?? Im confused at what you are calling the JUDDER PLATE.

The spring that compresses clutch pack is just a fancy beleaview spring. When the clutch slave cyl presses on the center portion of that spring the outer part of the spring bends outward and releases pressure on the clutch pack.

What does the extra plate that you have do??

Im going to try to add some additional HUB Oiling Holes to allow oil to get to :

1. That outer most friction disk that wears first.
2. Other disk in the hub that dont have holes.

What do you think about slightly enlarging the diameter of the already drilled holes??



I also want to slightly bevel the area above each oil hole to allow oil to allow oil to get into each oil hole easier.

Do you have a better picture of the machining that was done to the centre part that slides into the end of the gearbox shaft?

Thank You again

Bill

Here's the information about IMPROVING OIL FLOW and adding the ANTI JUDDER SPRING with MODIFIED FRICTION PLATE to house it.

Pictures are taken the second time I went into this k1200 engine. This was to improve the feel of the clutch by adding the Anti Judder Kit. Its plain to see that the earlier improvements to the oil flow have worked.

Make a card or similar to keep the cover screws in and ensure they go back in their original places. There are two lengths.


Remove the cover and gasket from the side of the engine. Note the two dowels far left and far right which align them.


Pull out the release bearing and its centre pin so that you can get in to undo the large centre hub nut.

Might be able to do this with the pressure spring (Bellville Spring) in place and its keeper plate if your socket has a thin wall.

If not remove the six socket head screws and keeper plate as above and below.


My socket was too large so after removing the large nut I put three screws back in. Then I could get a grip and pull the complete hub, plate pack and pressure late out in one. Note the first friction plate to come out of the basket has its own set of splines.


Your pack will come off like this or refit the parts to keep it all together so keeping the tangs of the friction plates still in line if required. Perhaps if you know the pack is good and you will be going further in to have work done on the clutch basket.


If going in to work on the pack then lifting the hub out of the stack might be best.
This shows the hub lifted out. Clear to see the top friction plate (outer most plate when mounted on the engine) which was badly pasted up before is now running clean and well lubricated.

It was like this before. Hard to believe these are the same plates.


IMPROVING OIL FLOW - here's how the lubrication was improved.

This is designed to address the screech from the clutch reported by so many at take off. And to save the outer clutch friction plate face from an unacceptable level of wear. It will also improve the feel of the clutch to a small degree.

Clean the plate with a tooth brush in some engine oil. Brushing between the segments until all the paste is gone. When I did this the last time the pack was out the friction material looked a bit "fluffy" after the brushing. You can see above it looks as it should after some miles in the bike with the improved lubrication.


The hub needs an extra hole right there as close to the face of the hub as you can but without catching the face. This feeds oil directly to the pasted up plate. Use a drill the same size or a fraction larger than the existing holes.


Clean out all the holes with the same drill to make sure they are smooth. Adding a small countersink with a larger drill held in your hand to their inside where they breaks through into the oil grooves. Not I also use a small round file to remove any casting fash or burs from the oil grooves. This helps make sure that oil reaching the grooves travels their full length to all the holes and onto the plates as the hub spins.


And here's the modified release bearing pin. I never captured it before the work but you can compare it with what you take out. Perhaps someone could email me a picture of theirs or a link to add here for completeness.


Before it simply had three flats on it for the whole length of the now reduced tail. Now modified and placing it in the bore of the shaft shows how much less restriction it will cause to oil coming down the middle of the shaft. Note the three groves now ground in what remains of the three flats. What's important is to leave the three sections of its original outside diameter as they were. These are the only parts that contacted the bore of the shaft before modification performing their role of stabilising the release bearing.


Adding the ANTI JUDDER SPRING with MODIFIED FRICTION PLATE to house it - ANTI JUDDER KIT.

Its named "anti judder" or similar in most manufacturers wet multi plate clutches. It refines the bite of the clutch at take off from rest and during gear changes. What it does in the 1200 and 1300 engine is to bring the bite point of the clutch nearer to the handlebar. With the final solid take up of the clutch lever also being slightly closer to the bar than standard. In other words it softens the bit of the clutch. Making it more controllable and easier to control rather than the sudden all or nothing "switch" some reported.

I've seen later versions of these clutches where BMW have included this. Suspect they were for the 1300 and/or later bikes where the whole clutch is basically the same design but no single major component is backwards compatible on its own. With this kit my aim is to achieve the same clutch feel and long life being reported by owners with the later clutch but without the need for the new Plate Pack or the new Clutch basket and a completely new oil pump drive gear. Very expensive here in Europe and not much less in the USA.

We could have fitted this kit at the same time as the clutch was out the first time where I improved the lubrication. Only problem with that is we would not know if the improvements were down to one or both modifications. Both proved to be very worthwhile on their own. The owner said so after good runs to compare before and after. The Anti Judder Kit giving greater feel to the lever and control of the bike - particularly in tight spaces.

Before - with standard friction plate in good cleaned up well lubricated condition.


And this is what it looks like when fitted. Ready for the hub to be slid back into the complete plate pack.


Its a special conical spring and a specific thickness of shim steel ring that fits inside a modified clutch friction plate. Of interest to some the friction plate it replaces is the very same one that wears prematurely due to the poor lubrication highlighted earlier.
Now you can see its a spring and seat. It gives the complete plate pack a beneficial spring effect.


I need more time to continue with the re-assembly including torque settings and so if this is to become a useful thread to give owners the confidence to go in and make these improvements to their own clutches.

On a related matter. The springs I ordered so that I could rebuild the clutch baskets are ready for collection. If your basket moves freely of the main gear by hand as in this video its going to need a rebuild. http://youtu.be/TmkGzUflF9s
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  #79  
Old 07-27-2015, 06:33 PM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Now i understand the added oil hole and where it goes. THANK YOU for the great pictures!!

Questions:
How many additional oil holes are you adding to the Hub???? Are you just adding that one hole??
How do I get the JUDDER Kit??
How do I get your springs?

Can you detail how you remove the rivets and reinstall them??

I have a Barnett Clutch pack kit ready to install. I need to get educated on making ALL the up-grade mods so that I have proper oil going to my clutch pack and get rid of that NASTY lost motion that I have. I suspect my hub has the same slop as the one in your video.

If I use a Barnett clutch pack, I dont know if i can add a judder spring kit as it wont have the milled out area for the shim and spring.

I'm all EARS!!

Thank You DOCTOR CLUTCH!

Bill
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Old 07-29-2015, 03:32 PM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Another quick questions.. If I cant get the replacement springs, would it work if I added a metal SHIM between the spring and the spring retainer plate to remove the slop??

I know that the spring/s have lost some of their tension but, what the heck,,, It would eliminate that nasty ass lost motion that I have.

I've been worried about replacing the drilled out pop rivets. I suppose that I could use some grade 8 bolts and nuts as long as the profile isn't too tall on either side. How do you reassemble that spring plate?

Thanks again

Bill
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Old 07-30-2015, 12:52 AM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

404, thanks for all your great information. Confirmed by BMW when they sent out data to change from 10W40 to 5W40 oil and then changed all their paper work to match.
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Old 07-31-2015, 01:26 PM
fourhundred4 fourhundred4 is offline
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Curlee
Now i understand the added oil hole and where it goes. THANK YOU for the great pictures!!

Questions:
How many additional oil holes are you adding to the Hub???? Are you just adding that one hole??
How do I get the JUDDER Kit??
How do I get your springs?

Can you detail how you remove the rivets and reinstall them??

I have a Barnett Clutch pack kit ready to install. I need to get educated on making ALL the up-grade mods so that I have proper oil going to my clutch pack and get rid of that NASTY lost motion that I have. I suspect my hub has the same slop as the one in your video.

If I use a Barnett clutch pack, I dont know if i can add a judder spring kit as it wont have the milled out area for the shim and spring.

Another quick questions.. If I cant get the replacement springs, would it work if I added a metal SHIM between the spring and the spring retainer plate to remove the slop??

I know that the spring/s have lost some of their tension but, what the heck,,, It would eliminate that nasty ass lost motion that I have.

I've been worried about replacing the drilled out pop rivets. I suppose that I could use some grade 8 bolts and nuts as long as the profile isn't too tall on either side. How do you reassemble that spring plate?

I'm all EARS!!

Thank You DOCTOR CLUTCH!

Bill

Good questions Bill. I'll answer briefly and get more detail up here later when more time.

My experience says you only need the one extra oil hole drilling in that hub. This and the other holes only any use if the feed from the shaft is improved or proved to be working of course.

I can supply the Anti Judder kit for any owner wishing to cure the screech at take off if the usual problem friction plate has worn, is polluted with the "paste" or if they simply wish to improve the feel of their clutch to bring the bite point closer to the bar. This kit can be used with your Barnett clutch pack. It completely replaces one of the stock or Barnett friction plates.

Stripping and re-building these clutch baskets is not a straight forward job. The casting is fragile so making threads for the rivet replacements is not regular tapping and normal nuts and bolts are way too bulky. Replacing the bearing between casting and gear is tricky because the casting is so thin compared to other's I modify. The whole assembly spins very fast. One slip and the basket is scrap so would be looking for a new or used replacement which is what we are trying to avoid. The batch of springs I had made to date will only be enough for the baskets scheduled to soon be on their way for me to modify. I would be leading owners astray by encouraging them to buy springs and try themselves.

Shimming the main load springs in the baskets damper does not achieve anything. Just compresses the springs to the point they are coil bound so damaged and even less use than now. What ever is used as shims will wear, thin and perhaps even break up so will come out of the slots one day. Only way out is through the back of the basket where the oil pump drive sprocket and chain live. Please don't anyone try this.

Later edit - I just remembered many owners following this will be in the USA. USPS costs $62 USD and takes five working days to deliver clutch baskets to me here in the UK. I just collected another K1200R basket to modify from a local BMW (non franchised) specialists. Will get it open over the weekend and see if its like the others.
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Old 07-31-2015, 01:42 PM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beech
404, thanks for all your great information. Confirmed by BMW when they sent out data to change from 10W40 to 5W40 oil and then changed all their paper work to match.

Yes I agree to some extent. I have a suspicion that the oil reaching the clutch and gearbox hardly ever gets up to true engine temperature. But then as far as the clutch is concerned think what's the real difference in the thickness of 5W versus 10W at low temperatures? Consider further the very small difference at typical hot engine temperatures of their 40 grades as they approach boiling point of water. And no matter how thin the oil it's not going to get where its needed if there is no hole or passage to take it there.

Changes to the recommended oil could also be down to standardisation (rationalisation) of oil grades stocked in their workshops.
Could also be down to improving the low temperature cranking of the engines.
And could also be down to getting oil to that troublesome oil pressure fed cam chain tensioner as soon as possible after start up.
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Old 07-31-2015, 02:47 PM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Quote:
Originally Posted by fourhundred4
Good questions Bill. I'll answer briefly and get more detail up here later when more time.

My experience says you only need the one extra oil hole drilling in that hub. This and the other holes only any use if the feed from the shaft is improved or proved to be working of course.

I can supply the Anti Judder kit for any owner wishing to cure the screech at take off if the usual problem friction plate has worn, is polluted with the "paste" or if they simply wish to improve the feel of their clutch to bring the bite point closer to the bar. This kit can be used with your Barnett clutch pack. It completely replaces one of the stock or Barnett friction plates.

Stripping and re-building these clutch baskets is not a straight forward job. The casting is fragile so making threads for the rivet replacements is not regular tapping and normal nuts and bolts are way too bulky. Replacing the bearing between casting and gear is tricky because the casting is so thin compared to other's I modify. The whole assembly spins very fast. One slip and the basket is scrap so would be looking for a new or used replacement which is what we are trying to avoid. The batch of springs I had made to date will only be enough for the baskets scheduled to soon be on their way for me to modify. I would be leading owners astray by encouraging them to buy springs and try themselves.

Shimming the main load springs in the baskets damper does not achieve anything. Just compresses the springs to the point they are coil bound so damaged and even less use than now. What ever is used as shims will wear, thin and perhaps even break up so will come out of the slots one day. Only way out is through the back of the basket where the oil pump drive sprocket and chain live. Please don't anyone try this.

Later edit - I just remembered many owners following this will be in the USA. USPS costs $62 USD and takes five working days to deliver clutch baskets to me here in the UK. I just collected another K1200R basket to modify from a local BMW (non franchised) specialists. Will get it open over the weekend and see if its like the others.


You stated, $62.00 USPS. Is that just shipping??? One way of both ways???

What's the cost of the repair/up-date services and parts??

Shipping is 5 days to you. Then 5 day back. What is the service time to modify and repair the clutch/hub/basket?

My clutch is KILLING ME,,, I would most likely need to wait until the riding season starts to wind down her in New England (READ SNOW) so, it will be a while before she comes apart.

Inquiring minds need to know..

I have a friend with a Lathe and a milling machine... That shaft is as good as already modified! I can precision drill holes with the best of them.

All I would need are the basket mods, springs and judder disk.

Thanks

Bill
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Old 09-01-2015, 03:50 PM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

fourhundred4

Any more interesting K1200 CLUTCH SYSTEM facts, pictures and guidance??
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Old 09-01-2015, 05:08 PM
cstumpf750 cstumpf750 is online now
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Yes, and K1300 clutches too. Actually what I proposed to FourHundred4 in the PM I sent him still stands. But feel free to bombard the forum with as many photos, diagrams, blueprints and text details as you can. I'm sure no one here will complain one bit.
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Old 09-02-2015, 01:55 AM
fourhundred4 fourhundred4 is offline
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Curlee
fourhundred4

Any more interesting K1200 CLUTCH SYSTEM facts, pictures and guidance??

Thank you Bill Curlee and cstumpf750.

Been touring some of mainland Europe the past few weeks. Lucky to catch me with some wifi. Hope to be back in just over a week to pick up where I left off.

The two owners I modified clutches for have been off on their own trips so looking forward to hearing their impressions after real life road tests. Not expecting much back from the two dealerships I performed modifications for. Other than the feedback to date which was "we fitted them and all was fine. The owners have not been back with any complaints".

Later edit - just seen my inbox has many enquiries for these modifications so most likely some more evidence of what's wrong and able to be fixed.

Last edited by fourhundred4 : 09-02-2015 at 02:04 AM. Reason: more info.
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Old 09-04-2015, 11:57 AM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

PLEASE,,, Take LOTS of cool clutch carnage pictures! Then pictures of the magic repairs!!

Enjoy your trip!

Bill
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Old 09-18-2015, 07:19 PM
jaredwilson jaredwilson is offline
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Watching this thread with great interest. 2006 K1200S just developed the 2nd gear slipping issue at 21k miles. Plan to have the clutch worked on when I remove the transmission and would like to have the issues sorted out before I put it all back together.

fourhundred4 - thanks so much for sharing your wisdom with us. Very interested in having your corrections done to my clutch. Since I have most of the 4 issues you listed previously, I just may have to send you my clutch basket once it's out of the bike. Let me know your availability. Thanks!
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Old 10-04-2015, 04:46 AM
Scootinstevey Scootinstevey is offline
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Hi, what a fantastic thread and thanks to fourhundred4 for the brilliant explanations and videos which clearly explain how to remedy the clutch problems.

I have all four problems as well as the "dog howl" (so 5 in total) the clutch does not slip. My bike has done 37000 miles and I believe that the owner before me sold it because of this? It has been serviced by BMW dealers, but I do not know if it has ever had the clutch stripped/replaced before.

I will be stripping the clutch down during the winter to see what "damage there is on the plates.
And from the noises I get, I'm pretty sure the springs at the back of the basket will be shot.

Fourhundred4, do you have a price yet to carry out the modifications to the basket, thrust rod, new springs, anti judder springs etc. And what sort of turnaround time do you think there would be.

Regard Steve
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Old 10-06-2015, 08:49 PM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

A big thank you to all the hard work by fourhundred4. I was excited to find this thread as I just bought my second 2008 K1200GT that I recently found with only 11000 miles. I absolutely love the 08 GT and I feel there probably will never be a BMW replacement for it. Having owned one previously I am aware of all the weak points and was willing to live with the clutch squawk but was happy to hear of a solution. I have a good runner (no air box issues), installed jump guard, and I installed an APE manual cam chain tensioner. The last thing I have to address is the clutch so I contacted Fourhundred4 and he very courteously replied in great detail about a plan of action and I am glad to say he has offered to help me out. Planning to do the rebuild this off season.
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Old 10-10-2015, 11:08 AM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Quote:
Originally Posted by fourhundred4
Thank you Bill Curlee and cstumpf750.

Been touring some of mainland Europe the past few weeks. Lucky to catch me with some wifi. Hope to be back in just over a week to pick up where I left off.

The two owners I modified clutches for have been off on their own trips so looking forward to hearing their impressions after real life road tests. Not expecting much back from the two dealerships I performed modifications for. Other than the feedback to date which was "we fitted them and all was fine. The owners have not been back with any complaints".

Later edit - just seen my inbox has many enquiries for these modifications so most likely some more evidence of what's wrong and able to be fixed.


I JUST returned from a FANTASTIC business trip in Glasgow Scotland. Very nice country and excellent scenery and weather.. I should have taken my clutch basket and parts with me and mailed them to you from Glasgow. LOL! My business trips come at a moments notice so, I didnt have time to yank it out.
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Old 10-18-2015, 03:45 AM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

So will there be a kit soon that we can buy off you at some point soon? My k1200r has done 109000km and from what I'm hearing my stock clutch is going to need replacing soon.
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Old 10-24-2015, 11:01 AM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Quote:
Originally Posted by DOA
OK, I will stand up and say it
"I was a clutch abuser and have been abuse free for 20 years".

I did not know better and my poor old Honda 750 had to die to teach me. I used to hold the clutch in at stop lights. The Honda dealer told me the sad tale of how on warm days holding the clutch in warmed the clutch up. Waiting for a long light is enough to fling off all the oil (thinner due to heat) and even half throttle can warp a plate or burn the oil or burn the friction discs. Even time at the drag strip is easier on the clutch than a long left turn signal on a warm day.

I am not saying this is your problem, but it has not been mentioned.
BTW, if your K1200/1300 overheats sitting in traffic, you need to bleed the cooling system.

Quite true, great advice for this and every clutch. I was made hyper aware of this as I own an XR650R, and these had a different problem from the same action. On the earlier year models, If you are stopped in gear with clutch disengaged, the clutch bushing would eventually seize to the shaft. Honda later fixed the design flaw by adding oil passages to the bushing.

After learning about that, I'm always sure to do that as little as reasonably possible in all of my manual shift vehicles.
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Old 11-21-2015, 02:10 PM
fourhundred4 fourhundred4 is offline
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Thank you to all who sent various clutch parts here for investigation and pictures of their particular clutch. Thinking I've now seen every version of clutch revision from BMW. That's the versions of both clutch basket and clutch hub/clutch plate pack. Then I could be wrong. With five versions of clutch plate pack lubrication, three versions of clutch hub/clutch plate pack and four versions of clutch basket, I won't be surprised to find yet more.
My aim is to show these revisions so owners can understand them.

First the five revisions to lubrication of the clutch friction plates to avoid this pollution an premature wear of the one problem plate causing the squawk at take off and eventually the slipping clutch under reasonable load.


First bikes had the end of that shaft plugged with an aluminium slug. There was a section of the outer missing (flat filed on the plug) they called an oil jet supposed to let oil out that reached the inner of the hub. Later revision if owners complained of squawk at take off was to remove this plug and fit one with a larger section of the outer missing to increase the size of the "jet" and thereby oil to the friction surfaces. I don't have a picture of these plugs but can add a link to the BMW bulletin showing the suggested fix if required. It is old news though.
The picture below shows the empty end of the shaft and the then new push rod. The rod used with the above plugs did not have the rod tail. It was just the thick end held between my thumb and forefinger as no room for the rod with a plug in place.
The version of rod here has three flats machined along its length to allow more oil out than the slug and "jet" arrangement's. Only one flat visible at a time when taking a picture. There are two others round the back. This is the version in my you tube videos showing how inadequate the oil feed was. There's nothing positive about the feed. Only by leaving a very free route is oil going to get where its needed.


Then a series of rods with less restriction to oil flow. Milled slot. Then two milled slots.

End to show one slot.

Then two slots.

End to show two slots.


The two slot version above came out of the latest 1300 engines clutch. The whole clutch was here for modification because one surface of one friction plate was down to the metal. So far down to the metal it had wrecked the surface of the clutch hub. Suggests even the latest version of revised lubrication by BMW is not enough to cure the squawk and premature wear of the clutch leading to slip under load.

Next up the three revisions to the clutch plate pack and hub.
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Old 11-22-2015, 10:52 AM
fourhundred4 fourhundred4 is offline
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Here's the outside of a typical clutch plate pack and hub as removed from an engine. BMW refer to this a the lamellar pack. The pack contains the steel clutch plates, the friction plates, the pressure plate and the pressure spring (disc spring held on the front). Although you can dismantle the pack down into the parts mentioned, they are not available separately from BMW. List price is $796 USD so when your clutch starts to slip or misbehave such as shudder or squawk as you take off from rest, BMW expect you to buy a complete new pack and slip it into your engine and away you go. Non BMW clutch plate packs are available for much less and can be fitted quite easily into the pack. Here I hope to show the differences in the three versions of BMW pack I have come across to date. Each one intended to overcome the recurring problems but without and lasting improvement in durability.


Here's the early and most simple version of pack with the hub lifted out. Seven steel plates, eight friction plates all the same, a hub and a pressure plate.


Then it appears BMW introduced a more sophisticated version. This had a damper or anti chatter spring built in. This more than likely is intended to address the squawk and chatter at take off reported by so many owners. Conditions we are now fairly certain are caused by lack of oil to the wet clutch friction surfaces as explained earlier.
I will explain the function of each parts in notes below.

Starting from the bottom of the picture we see the splined hub which the steels interface with. The hub shown here is a stand in as I forgot to take a picture of the actual before it went back to its owner after modification. Next is the standard friction plate. Seven of these. Then the anti chatter spring (its a large diameter dished spring) and its thicker steel seat to prevent it eating into the aluminium flange of the hub. And round the outside a special half depth friction plate to make room for the anti chatter spring and its seat. The idea is the anti chatter spring creates a soft cushion to the clutch take up by making the whole plate pack springy. Not shown here and seldom ever seen is a wire retaining ring that holds the spring and its seat snug against the flange. The wire ring had its own narrow slot cut into the splines of the hub (not in the stand in hub here) a bit like a very large diameter circlip ring. Seldom seen as according to a BWM service bulletin the wire used to get out and jam between a steel and friction plate causing damage to the clutch. The bulletin went on to describe how a new oil pump must be fitted and a complete flush of the lubrication circuit made before running the engine. This version of lamellar pack was soon discontinued. Replaced by the one below.

What I believe to be the latest hub design from BMW. This only showed up here last week along with its clutch basket and a damaged set of plates. Note the extra oil hole close to the flange. Much the same as the modification I showed to the first hub that came here pictured earlier in the thread. And even more telling is the lozenge shape cast into the surface of the flange. Clearly intended to take oil from the extra close oil hole up the face of the flange. Yes I know its the same hub as used in the picture before as its the only one I have here just now.


Now this hub had to be refinished as the prematurely failed clutch plates had damaged the face of the aluminium flange.
Perfect used plate pack? Except for the one face of one plate far right which has lost all its material. Despite being the latest improved lubrication hub.
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Old 11-22-2015, 12:24 PM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Could you post the name of your Youtube video? Seems hard to find. thanks.
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Old 11-22-2015, 01:19 PM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Sure. Think I only made two so far.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uFBj...ature=youtu.be

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kZOv...ature=youtu.be

I have a complete clutch basket from a 1300 engine here in bits. Supposed to be the latest design from BMW and most likely what the last batch of engines have fitted. I think this also most likely what BMW will supply if you buy one to fit any year of this slant four engine. Will film and post as soon as I have time. The complaint was noise at idle. Already fathomed the springs are shorter than new by some margin and they have made changes inside to improve lubrication of its bearings.
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Old 11-30-2015, 02:17 PM
fourhundred4 fourhundred4 is offline
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Video comparing early basket with later.
The stock springs are still shortening just the same as in the older units. Again will be responsible for any annoying clatter/chatter from the clutch at idle when in neutral. Will contribute to the chatter/squawk at take off from rest and introduce annoying backlash in the drive train which I'm sure engine refinement and gear changes would be better without.
More of the oil supply is now reaching the bearing in the middle.
The black finish is due to the manufacturers now anodising the aluminium casting. Probably done to counter the wear present in earlier baskets because of the chatter.

https://youtu.be/dL5-fOwTXoo
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Old 12-01-2015, 07:09 AM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Quote:
Originally Posted by fourhundred4
Video comparing early basket with later.

https://youtu.be/dL5-fOwTXoo

Hi John

Good improvement with the springs and lubrication
This clearly explains the cause of the chattering, also shows it's not dangerous, just annoying.

Many thanks for share your knowledge with us
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Old 12-08-2015, 06:25 AM
fourhundred4 fourhundred4 is offline
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Curlee
I JUST returned from a FANTASTIC business trip in Glasgow Scotland. Very nice country and excellent scenery and weather.. I should have taken my clutch basket and parts with me and mailed them to you from Glasgow. LOL! My business trips come at a moments notice so, I didnt have time to yank it out.

Hi Bill. Have you taken the plunge yet? Be great to hear what you might also have found in there.

I've had another four complete clutches here for the work over the last month or so. All slightly different baskets and plate packs.

Baskets generally fall into two categories. Some need springs and bearing rebuild. Others just need springs. That is a simplification though. Much more to stripping them and reconditioning than that in reality.

Plate packs fall into many categories. So many revisions by BMW. All look to have been designed to address the lack of oil feed (its a wet clutch) issue. Few have gone some of the way. Others introduced in the plates made the problem worse.
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Old 12-08-2015, 06:52 PM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

fourhundred4

LOL! I just cant make myself pull the bike off the road. Its DECEMBER here in Southeast Connecticut and this weekend it suppose to be 60 degrees! Too nice of a ride to put the bike up.

This winter has been exceptionally MILD! We usually have SNOW by now and temps in the 20s.

Something to justify your theory on the clutch getting pasted up with clutch goop; When my clutch first failed under full throttle, it took a week of applying the throttle very very carefully to prevent it from slipping.

Today, the weather was really nice ana dthe road was clear and I got the bug to twist the throttle a good bit. For just a little bit, I thought my clutch issues were resolved but, as I passed 6000 rpm, it slipped!

Just driving it normally for a few months seemed to have clean it up enough to allow it to grab under normal everyday city highway driving.

Where I work, parking SUCKS for Cars. I can easily find a LOT of great parking spots for a motorcycle! I just have to pick a day when the winter starts to get bad and make it happen.

I saw that you were getting HAMMERED by wind and torrential rain storms in GB!! Hope you have better weather soon..

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Old 12-14-2015, 12:09 AM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Thanks so much for this thread.I have some noise in my 07K1200GT, so I followed the directions and dis assembled my clutch.I took the 30 mm nut off with a impact wrench.#1 clutch had bare metal and #8 the same thing.What is interesting is some of the disks have rubber bands on them.They look like the bands for castrating sheep and goats.They are little green bands.[IMG]http://[/IMG][IMG]http://[/IMG][IMG]http://[/IMG][IMG]http://[/IMG][IMG]http://[/IMG][IMG]http://[/IMG]
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Old 12-14-2015, 12:12 AM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Thanks so much for this thread.I have some noise in my 07K1200GT, so I followed the directions and dis assembled my clutch.I took the 30 mm nut off with a impact wrench.#1 clutch had bare metal and #8 the same thing.What is interesting is some of the disks have rubber bands on them.They look like the bands for castrating sheep and goats.They are little green bands.[IMG]http://[/IMG][IMG]http://[/IMG][IMG]http://[/IMG][IMG]http://[/IMG][IMG]http://[/IMG][IMG]http://[/IMG][IMG]http://[/IMG]
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Old 12-14-2015, 03:47 AM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Quote:
Originally Posted by jb63
What is interesting is some of the disks have rubber bands on them.They look like the bands for castrating sheep and goats.They are little green bands.

Interesting concept; makes one wonder if this is a BMW fix, or previous owner?

Will be interested in fourhundred4's take on this.
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Old 12-14-2015, 04:49 AM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Quote:
Originally Posted by paulmogs
Interesting concept; makes one wonder if this is a BMW fix, or previous owner?

Will be interested in fourhundred4's take on this.
I'm the third owner and the guy I got it from had every thing done at a dealer or shop.Before that it was down in Arizona.I think owner #2 put 20k miles on it.I'll take a better pic in a couple of days.
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Old 12-14-2015, 07:44 AM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Quote:
Originally Posted by paulmogs
Interesting concept; makes one wonder if this is a BMW fix, or previous owner?

Will be interested in fourhundred4's take on this.

Thank you for your contribution jb63.

These green rings are standard BMW. Found them on three friction packs sent here for reconditioning and my lubrication upgrade. The manufacturer of the plates went to great expense having two drive tangs on three plates forged to accommodate the rings. Made with round edges so the rings were not cut. I have some pictures that will explain their purpose and how they work. The chronic wear of the outer plates outer friction faces is very common. Lack of oil and the rings make it even worse.
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Old 12-14-2015, 12:29 PM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

They look like standard Viton O rings to me.
Trying to keep idle chatter to a minimum?
Looking forward to FourHundred4's analysis.
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Old 12-14-2015, 03:27 PM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Quote:
Originally Posted by DOA
They look like standard Viton O rings to me.
Trying to keep idle chatter to a minimum?
Looking forward to FourHundred4's analysis.

Yes. I thought much the same until I had them in my hand and realized they were not long enough to touch the splines of the basket. Not going to have any effect on idle chatter without bearing against the basket.

Here with picture and to explain the all too common wear shown in jb63's earlier pictures.

The rings behave like springs between the friction plates. Holding them slightly clear of the steel plates when the clutch lever is pulled as the clutch disengages. There's another set of three rings at 180 degrees to those shown here. They were not standard on the first clutches and I would not be surprised if they had now been discontinued. Two possible explanations as to why they were introduced.
One - they might help reduce clutch drag. That's characterized by the loud clunk when going to first gear from neutral after the bike has been parked for a while. It only takes one steel to stick to its neighboring friction plate when the clutch is first disengaged to make a loud clunk as the gearbox is not happy being asked to select first while the input shaft is being driven by the stuck plates. Did early engines suffer from clutch drag?
Two - they create a slightly springy feel to the clutch pack which will improve the feel of the clutch by increasing the length of lever travel from initial bite point to full bite as the lever is released. Similar idea to that disc anti chatter spring I show in post #96 earlier. A spin off to having all plates separate equally is the wetting oil gets to the surfaces of the plates for a squawk free smooth take off. We know these clutches suffered with this. We also know they continue to suffer from the squawk.

Now I'm very surprised to find them in use. They appear to be a work round to make up for a lack of oiling and to improve feel and I'm sure BMW would never have introduced them had they realized the long term problems they were going to cause owners. The design of a multi plate clutch relies on the pressure on each friction face being equal. The problem these green rings is they can only work to separate twelve of the sixteen friction to steel/aluminium drive faces. Holding the twelve frictions faces clear as the clutch makes its initial bite means the four faces that don't have the green rings separating them will carry all the load and consequently suffer the wear. Put another way, the initial bite of the clutch is only made by one quarter of the friction faces. If we take off gently it could be that only one quarter of the clutch has ever done any real work. Its all too common to find four completely worn out friction faces and twelve in much better condition. What should be a clutch that lasts the life of the engine, as they do in most other similarly configured engines, is wearing out prematurely and giving poor performance for that short life into the bargain.

The real way to sort these clutches out is to revise the oiling to the plates. The oil is there in the gearbox shaft for this very purpose. Despite all their versions and modifications over the years, BMW never came up with a sloution to get it to where its supposed to be.


Look closely at the gaps between steel plates or aluminium hub and pressure plate and the friction plates in this worn out pack. THERE ARE TWELVE GAPS NICE AND WIDE FILLED WITH FRICTION LINING. AND FOUR GAPS COMPLETELY CLOSED BECAUSE THE LINING IS WORN AWAY. GAPS WHERE THE GREEN RINGS STRADDLE THEM. NO GAPS WHERE THE GREEN RINGS CAN'T HAVE ANY EFFECT. All that clutch but less than half of it doing any work when you need it.
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  #110  
Old 12-14-2015, 03:35 PM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

The green O-rings were removed in subsequent lamellar packages (clutch packs).

I bought one in 2011 and did not have them.
I can't tell the difference between my original (2006) and the new one.

Also bought an engine from a K1200S 2007. That engine had a slipping 2nd gear, at (allegedly) 17K miles. The clutch pack that came with it had the green goat castrators.

However, as I said the new one does not have them.

Some other poster shared that the chatter or dragging at 1st gear is caused by the poor material on the clutch basket. The clutch pack will create grooves, so when disengaging the clutch, some plates will not move from the grooves thus dragging the clutch.

He reportedly would grind the grooves.
I though about lining the clutch cage with a stronger metal...
But in the end, I just don't care anymore.
Have two clutch packs which will last about 40-50 thousand kms each and a third one in so-so shape.
Also have two clutch cages in case the newer one goes.

and and additional tranny (slipping in 2nd) that I can send to fix.

Not sure if it's worth all the trouble.
But is surely fun to know, in case one day I get bored....
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  #111  
Old 12-19-2015, 11:33 AM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

My new sticker arrived 192.96.No tax to Oregon buyers.
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Old 12-20-2015, 03:27 PM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

http://www.i-bmw.com/showthread.php?p=672800#post672800
http://www.i-bmw.com/showpost.php?p=672800&postcount=2
Here's the torque pattern for the case cover.Thx brucev.
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Old 12-30-2015, 08:56 AM
fourhundred4 fourhundred4 is offline
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Quote:
Originally Posted by mondrage

Some other poster shared that the chatter or dragging at 1st gear is caused by the poor material on the clutch basket. The clutch pack will create grooves, so when disengaging the clutch, some plates will not move from the grooves thus dragging the clutch.

He reportedly would grind the grooves.
I though about lining the clutch cage with a stronger metal...

Interesting about the grooves causing drag. In my experience they are not grooves. More like witness marks with rounded or sloping sides where the tangs of the plates slide over as the clutch engages and disengages.

This one has over 100,000 miles on it. Could easily have seen two or three stock BMW lamellar packs (friction and steel packs) in that time. Driving faces of the splines shown rather than the overrun faces which don't bruise so heavily.


With no load on the clutch when going from neutral to first and with more clearance due to the marks I would anticipate things moving (plates separating) more freely.

The objectionable rattle from these clutches at idle is down to the torsion damper in the basket being weak rather than this bit of extra clearance.

All other gear changes using the clutch to disengage are done with a closing throttle so the tangs are in their overrun position in the basket where the witness marks are much smaller or as new.

Attempting any grinding or filing risks undoing all the good that bedding in over the years did to share the load from tangs to basket splines equally. BMW have gone to great lengths to ensure plates go back in the same way as they came out. All the mechanic has to do is ensure they go back in the same order. Most folks grinding or filing I've seen resulted in a worse clutch than they had before and in some cases made the basket scrap.

Stock plate tangs are nice and wide and made of the same material as the basket to ensure minimum wear. The aftermarket plates often have thin tangs like I show here in this built up pack on the left. The four stock examples on the right having a much wider load bearing area. Close to 50% more! Stock BMW plates on the right. Barnett after market plates on the left.
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  #114  
Old 12-30-2015, 12:28 PM
fourhundred4 fourhundred4 is offline
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

IMPORTANT WHEN FITTING NEW CLUTCH PLATES

Avoid possible clutch fluid over spill onto your paint and riding gear. Particularly when fitting new plates or when the order of the original plates might have been changed or the plates have just been disturbed. DON'T BE TEMPTED TO TOP UP THE CLUTCH FLUID RESERVOIR until everything has settled down ("bedded in"). A fluid level just above the minimum mark should be adequate for the first road test. After that you will probably notice the level rises slightly.

I have had a few owners asking why their clutch fluid was overflowing out of the reservoir. Turned out their bikes had been into their BMW workshops for clutch work. On collection it was noted that the clutch fluid had been topped up to maximum or perhaps slightly above. Their bill for the work sometimes confirming this with a charge for clutch fluid. After just a short ride home or perhaps the next ride they had clutch fluid overflowing from the reservoir on the handlebar. I understand its organic based rather than the more common mineral. One owner even reported serious damage to paint but I would have expected it to less severe than from mineral base fluid.

Whats Happening?
The hydraulic clutch is self adjusting. This is designed so the bite point of the clutch should always remain at the the same lever distance from the bar even if the clutch friction linings wear over the life of the clutch. No need to constantly make adjustments to keep the clutch "character" as with a cable operated clutch. Brake lining wear results in a gradual lowering of the brake fluid level in its reservoir. However, Clutch Lining Wear or just early wear during "bedding in" results in a gradual rise in the clutch fluid in the reservoir. As the clutch pack gets thinner due to wearing linings, the fluid is displaced by the slave cylinder and pushed up the clutch line. So while ever the clutch is not in use there will be an increase in the fluid level in the reservoir.

This rise could be particularly noticeable soon after fitting after market plate packs to the original BMW alloy Hub and Pressure Plate. Particularly if the friction faces of the hub and Pressure Plate have become lipped as in the example pictures below.

The new friction plates will only make contact with the tops of the lips when first fitted. This makes the whole pack significantly thicker when fitted and the fluid level in the reservoir will drop significantly to make up for this. This is the point at which YOU SHOULD NOT TOP THE LEVEL UP to much above the minimum mark. After just a few launches the lips will have cut deep grooves into the new friction plates which in turn leads to a quickly reduced thickness of plate pack. This pushes the displaced fluid back to the reservoir. And if topped up before "bedding in" risks possible fluid overflow.

I should add that leaving the lips in place can lead to a less than smooth take off from rest. The slightly tapered edge leading to some snatching of the friction plate.

Picture showing typical pressure plate lip on the inner diameter of the face (12 cm mark on the rule). Caused by the known lack of oiling which allows the friction face of the plate to wear away the aluminium face prematurely.


Picture showing typical lips on the inner and outer diameter of the Hub face (quarter inch and three quarter in marks on the rule). Again caused by the known lack of oiling which allows the friction face of the plate to wear away the aluminium face prematurely.


The parts shown here are from a 30,000 mile 2007 engine. Had all the usual signs of premature friction lining wear. The lipped faces were restored to as new condition as part of the improvements to the oil distribution. The new plates fitted should now last the life of the engine - as they do in other wet clutch motorcycle engines.
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Old 12-30-2015, 04:58 PM
Katsumoto Katsumoto is offline
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Although very believable on an older generation bike, I'd be hard pushed to believe this hasn't been resolved through engineering design.
Or am I too confident in our friends @ BMW and their infinite quest for perfection?

K
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Old 12-31-2015, 01:38 AM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

I've been mulling over where the actual fault in the clutch oil delivery is. A big clue is all the bandaid fixes to the clutch pack. The real problem isn't there. They are just trying to get the clutch to live with an inadequate oil supply. I think the real problem is the source of the oil to the clutch. It comes from inside the transmission and I'm willing to bet there is no way to increase the volume and/or pressure to the clutch without causing major problems with oil flow to other parts of the engine/transmission. Might tapping the oil tank and hooking up a small electric pump with a hardline plumbed through the clutch cover to squirt oil inside the clutch pack work? I wish I could find a diagram of the oil system of these engines/transmissions to see if I can find the fault and see if it is fixable.
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Old 12-31-2015, 02:15 AM
fourhundred4 fourhundred4 is offline
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

BMW did not design this engine. They had it done for them by a firm of consulting engineers here in the UK.
BMW did not design the gearbox. They had that done for them by a gear company here in the UK.
The clutch is designed and made in Germany by another company that in all my years of work on wet clutches I had never come across before. The catalogue of revision on revision suggests someone worked hard to re design things for sure. Not likely to be BMW though. Videos show BMW put it all together but that's all the factory knows what to do. And the rest we see is marketing blurb to build a brand identity.
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Old 12-31-2015, 02:24 AM
DOA DOA is offline
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Quote:
Originally Posted by cstumpf750
It comes from inside the transmission and I'm willing to bet there is no way to increase the volume and/or pressure to the clutch without causing major problems with oil flow to other parts of the engine/transmission.
The fixes listed here are pretty easy to understand, there are two problems. Not enough oil and oil not getting to all the plates. The engine has plenty of oil as shown by no drop in oil pressure with the fixes installed. Re-read the thread if you think I need correction and point out where I am wrong.
As for BMW, all companies are cursed with mistakes and this one will go to the last K1300s made.
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Old 12-31-2015, 05:32 AM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Quote:
Originally Posted by fourhundred4
BMW did not design this engine. They had it done for them by a firm of consulting engineers here in the UK.
BMW did not design the gearbox. They had that done for them by a gear company here in the UK.
The clutch is designed and made in Germany by another company that in all my years of work on wet clutches I had never come across before. The catalogue of revision on revision suggests someone worked hard to re design things for sure. Not likely to be BMW though. Videos show BMW put it all together but that's all the factory knows what to do. And the rest we see is marketing blurb to build a brand identity.

I understood BMW designed the K1200 engine. I know that Ricardo were called in to rework the engine into the K1300, but would regard the fundamental design of the engine as being BMW. They did after all design the S1000RR engine, which is a pretty clever piece of kit.
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Old 12-31-2015, 09:26 AM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Quote:
Originally Posted by DOA
The fixes listed here are pretty easy to understand, there are two problems. Not enough oil and oil not getting to all the plates. The engine has plenty of oil as shown by no drop in oil pressure with the fixes installed. Re-read the thread if you think I need correction and point out where I am wrong.
As for BMW, all companies are cursed with mistakes and this one will go to the last K1300s made.

And that's my point. The flow of oil to the clutch is restricted too much somewhere before it gets too the clutch. All these "fixes"to the clutch are to try make it live with not enough oil being delivered to it. Now I understand that too much oil will rob horsepower, but it seems to me that no amount of reworking the clutch will overcome the extreme deficit of oil supply to it. Yes, it helps, but doesn't fix the actual problem. The only two real flaws in the clutch are the missing oil hole at the base of the basket, which BMW added in later revisions and the poor quality springs used on the back of the basket for anti-judder, which the haven't. Springs are an easy fix, just replace with high quality ones. The lack of oil supply is the real problem. If someone in Europe could contact Ricardo and inquire about how the oil is supplied to the clutch we might be able to come up with a real fix instead of bandaids that don't address the root problem. I suspect the clutch is being supplied via the low pressure side and there is a flow restriction to supply just enough oil to the clutch and no more that is too restrictive. The clutch needs a higher volume of oil delivered to it, simple as that.
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