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"K13S/R" Technical Q&A K1200S/R Technical Questions/Answers

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  #241  
Old 02-05-2017, 12:45 PM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Quote:
Originally Posted by panason1c
Just ordered a new needle roller bearing and bush for the basket from my local BMW dealer, (these two items MUST be renewed together, according to the parts man) I've not removed the clutch basket yet but at 35,000 miles I guess it will benefit from them.

Cost 52 in total (British pounds)

Parts arrived for my K1300s, year, 2011.........but I'm not sure if they are correct? though I haven't removed my clutch yet........I thought I ordered the needle roller bearing for the centre of the clutch basket, as in the picture in post #237. (maybe it is a different set-up in a K1200?)
Here is a pic of what I received.... part numbers 212127700526 and 21217680465
The new needle bearing hasn't come with an outer 'race' so I guess it will run on an existing outer race?, which seems a bit odd?
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  #242  
Old 02-05-2017, 12:57 PM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Yes, the needle bearing is wrong. This is the needle bearing for the oil pump sprocket. As far as i know, the clutch basket needle bearing is not sold seperately by BMW. You can find one in a special bearing shop.
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  #243  
Old 02-05-2017, 01:04 PM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Quote:
Originally Posted by screwy
Yes, the needle bearing is wrong. This is the needle bearing for the oil pump sprocket. As far as i know, the clutch basket needle bearing is not sold seperately by BMW. You can find one in a special bearing shop.

Thanks for that, is the bush wrong as well?

Would fourhundred4 be kind enough to point me in the right direction for a new bearing please?.... (-:
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  #244  
Old 02-05-2017, 02:20 PM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Quote:
Originally Posted by panason1c
Thanks for that, is the bush wrong as well?

Would fourhundred4 be kind enough to point me in the right direction for a new bearing please?.... (-:


Ok, I see that one end of the bush that I have inserts into the large centre bearing of the basket, and serves as its inner race..... and the other end of the bush inserts into the oil pump drive gear bearing, serving as its inner race along with the new 'matched' bearing that I will install.
So, I have correct parts that I need, but not the one I thought I was ordering. ie....the large centre bearing, which I now need to find a supplier for......Does anyone know the dimensions of the bearing please?
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  #245  
Old 02-05-2017, 06:42 PM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Once you take out your basket you will find a clearly visible marking on a bearing with a code. This is not some kind specific bearing- just take the code to the bearings shop and you will get the correct one. At least they will be able to order one for you.

And i would suggest to return the bushing and your bearing back to bmw- no point to change thous parts you hold as they are for the oil pump. For basket you need another bearing which is not sold by bmw for sure.
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  #246  
Old 02-05-2017, 10:45 PM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Looking at a possible purchase for a 2016 Motosport with 800 miles. It seems to have some "shudder" as described in "post #26, typical problems #2 Shudder while taking off". It seems to happen in 1st gear only from 1000 rpms to 2500 rpms and then smooths out. Had the bike out for 40 miles with mix of highway and back roads and enjoyed the ride but this concerns me. Is this the start of more severe clutch problems or is this "they all do that"? Have a 2003 K1200GT and I am familiar with the "box of rocks" and "they all do that". From reading the post it appears BMW has modified the clutch but hasn't solved the problem. Would appreciate any advice/feedback and "owner's experiences". Thanks to all for the great posts.
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  #247  
Old 02-05-2017, 11:10 PM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

The bearing number on the needle bearing that fits in the clutch gearwheel that attaches to the clutch basket on my 2007 K1200 R is

HK354530

NKE

6119

L03

Hope this helps

Dusty
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  #248  
Old 02-06-2017, 01:48 AM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dusty952
The bearing number on the needle bearing that fits in the clutch gearwheel that attaches to the clutch basket on my 2007 K1200 R is

HK354530

NKE

6119

L03

Hope this helps

Dusty

That's great!, Thanks
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  #249  
Old 02-06-2017, 02:33 PM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Quote:
Originally Posted by icecolder
I would suggest to return the bushing and your bearing back to bmw- no point to change thous parts you hold as they are for the oil pump. For basket you need another bearing which is not sold by bmw for sure.

It seems that I do need the bush (and I might as well install the oil pump sprocket bearing since it is matched to the bush and they are supplied as a pair)
The bush acts as the inner bearing surface for the main clutch basket bearing as well as the inner surface for the oil pump bearing.... ... not good to run a new bearing on a worn existing inner surface...

See video from 8.40 minutes...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uVNVtVcHhj8

ps... I found a supplier for the main basket bearing (-:
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  #250  
Old 02-07-2017, 08:55 AM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

In the process of taking my clutch assembly out to send to @fourhundred4 and I made a bit of an interesting discovery! Click on the link to see my short video...
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  #251  
Old 02-07-2017, 09:19 AM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Pretty impressive..... the fact that you still managed to ride it.

Did you find all the pieces? Not that you got parts floating around in your sump/oil system.
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  #252  
Old 02-07-2017, 09:42 AM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

I haven't progressed any further as that big 30mm nut is proving to be quite a monster to remove! Also checking with BMW Motorrad to see if a shattered clutch plate is covered under my extended warranty. According to the handbook it seems like it is...
http://www.i-bmw.com/gallery/showpho...ze/big/cat/500
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  #253  
Old 02-07-2017, 05:27 PM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Yagh, that 30mm center nut is total monster. Had some problems removing it too. Most of people recommended to use impact wrench but i do not think this is proper tool for engine internals.
So i made a tool from what i had at home. Took a 1/2" wrench with a socket and attached it to the gym barbel using some soft wire. Barbel by itself is something nearly 2m long. Placed it and started to apply bigger and bigger force. I would say was used 15-20 kg of force on end of the 2m long barbel! No way to unbolt it with a standard 0.5m wrench.
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  #254  
Old 02-08-2017, 12:02 PM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterD
In the process of taking my clutch assembly out to send to @fourhundred4 and I made a bit of an interesting discovery! Click on the link to see my short video...

Never seen the plate break up like that. Going to be because there was no oil to the plate so metal to metal once the friction material had gone.

Checking over and upgrading the oiling to the hub is going to be essential to prevent it starting all over again in replacement parts.

I can very likely still recondition the complete hubs when they have gone this far. New plates for certain and the hub face damaged due to the lack of lining can be re finished. If too bad I have spare hubs just in case.

I suggest about 1m long extension bar/tube is required to undo that nut. For undoing rest the very end of the holding tool on a block of wood towards the back of the bike. The arm of the tool will be near horizontal. Take care with height or use axle stand or jack as foot rest can be in the way. Have the extension bar/tube as near horizontal and parallel to the holding too. This ensures the counter load to your near "standing" on the bar/tube is down into the ground and not trying to tip the bike over or push it back and forth too much. Always handy to have a friend the other side of the bike in case it tries to move though. Be patient and increase the load gently while keeping an eye out for anything about to slip. Watch you don't scrape the can or take it out of the way. Same for riders foot rest and brake pedal. Now where's the picture I took??
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  #255  
Old 02-09-2017, 11:48 AM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

K1300s 2011 model
Got the basket removed!!..... The 30mm nut was easily undone using my Snap-on electric impact wrench........ The plates look in good, clean condition and well oiled.
I see that I have the later type oil pump drive (2 prongs instead of 6 dowels).
The springs were very loose (no surprise there!) New, stronger and longer springs installed and assembly now re-riveted.

I have a new Barnett clutch pack to install but I need to know if it makes any difference by NOT installing the Belville washer and slimmer clutch plate?... (as fitted in my original BMW clutch pack)
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  #256  
Old 02-10-2017, 03:23 AM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Quote:
Originally Posted by panason1c
K1300s 2011 model
Got the basket removed!!..... The 30mm nut was easily undone using my Snap-on electric impact wrench........ The plates look in good, clean condition and well oiled.
I see that I have the later type oil pump drive (2 prongs instead of 6 dowels).
The springs were very loose (no surprise there!) New, stronger and longer springs installed and assembly now re-riveted.

I have a new Barnett clutch pack to install but I need to know if it makes any difference by NOT installing the Belville washer and slimmer clutch plate?... (as fitted in my original BMW clutch pack)

Some have fitted the clutch pack without the last smaller clutch plate. They replaced it with a Lucas TRW clutch pack, not with a Barnett. As far as i know - no difference has been noticed and the clutch works as good as new, so you can try at least
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  #257  
Old 02-10-2017, 04:22 AM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Quote:
Originally Posted by panason1c
K1300s 2011 model
Got the basket removed!!..... The 30mm nut was easily undone using my Snap-on electric impact wrench........ The plates look in good, clean condition and well oiled.
I see that I have the later type oil pump drive (2 prongs instead of 6 dowels).
The springs were very loose (no surprise there!) New, stronger and longer springs installed and assembly now re-riveted.

I have a new Barnett clutch pack to install but I need to know if it makes any difference by NOT installing the Belville washer and slimmer clutch plate?... (as fitted in my original BMW clutch pack)

I fitted the Barnett clutch pack as supplied, it works much better than standard.
Every bike I have had I removed the Belleville set up as it always leads to bad first gear engagement when hot, it's only purpose is to give a little progression to the clutch take up at the expense of clutch drag as it takes up some of the clean sepperation.
Later Ks with the Belleville set up crash going into first gear.
Basically the K clutch is poor compared to Jap clutches from new, short life,judder and noisy, drags when hot etc. The Barnett replacement sorts most of this.
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  #258  
Old 02-10-2017, 05:26 AM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Thanks for the replies, I had already decided to discard the Belleville set-up and to fit all of the Barnett pack plates, your answers have confirmed my thoughts.
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  #259  
Old 02-10-2017, 05:44 AM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Just noticed that my front shock (esa) is leaking oil........ is the shock an easy job to remove?.......
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  #260  
Old 02-13-2017, 10:40 PM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Just installed the undercut transmission (by R&D Motorsport in Clearwater, FL) and fourhundred4 rebuilt clutch basket on my 2006 K1200S with 23k miles. Went with new clutch basket springs, increased oil channels and upgraded plates with dimpled steels. Took a quick ride around town tonight and can happily report the chatter at idle in neutral has been eliminated (worth the cost of the rebuild by itself) and the clutch feel is much improved. Opened the clutch cover after the ride and found decent oil coverage on all visible surfaces. The clutch now grabs sooner on the lever action than before and the clutch effort may be slightly increased, but not significant. Also did a few full throttle blasts in first and second gear - the clutch no longer slipped and the gearbox did not pop out of gear!

During the transmission work, they identified that my 6th gear had radial micro-cracks at the bottom of every tooth. They were able to replace the gear with one from another transmission they had on their shelf. Then they replaced all seals and o-rings and also the shift forks with new K1300S forks since the originals were worn from rubbing which they said caused the cracks on 6th gear. So far, a very happy customer of both R&D and fourhundred4! I'm not affiliated with either, just wanted to pass along a positive customer experience for the benefit of the forum.
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  #261  
Old 02-13-2017, 11:18 PM
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Smile Re: K1300s clutch problems

Quote:
Originally Posted by fourhundred4
A guide to spotting likely bearing issues I posted over in another thread but just as relevant here.

Picture of the typical damage you will find when the bearing has deteriorated. Notice the four segments of the thrust face of the gear are heavily rippled. This occurs due to oil cavitation. The constant rocking of the gear draws oil into and out of the gap between this thrust face and thrust washer. It tries to make the oil move at a frequency so high that it cannot move quickly enough so over time the steel thrust faces become deformed like this.

Please note - There is always a hint of this on the thrust faces but this one shows severe rocking of the gear has been going on for a long time. Also check the thrust face on the other side where the gear passes thrust to the oil pump drive gear. Most likely you will see the same telltale ripples in what was once a perfectly flat machined face.

Hey John- That isn't mine is it? I know you mentioned I had some of that issue.

BTW, I have about 60 miles on it so far. There's some new vibrations when set to neutral with it engaged and a feeling of tightness here and there that I think will "break in". It has a nice shifting feeling and accel/deccel vibrations are history!
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  #262  
Old 02-17-2017, 05:45 PM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Does anyone know if the clutch basket components have 'balance' marks?...... I have re-assembled the clutch basket with new, longer, springs and a new Barnett clutch pack.....the transmission backlash when riding the bike has now gone, but I am noticing worse vibration at higher engine speeds and I wonder if the basket is now out of balance?
Also, if the basket undergoes balancing, how do you address the task of actually correcting the imbalance?
Any ideas?
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  #263  
Old 02-18-2017, 12:56 AM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Quote:
Originally Posted by panason1c
Does anyone know if the clutch basket components have 'balance' marks?...... I have re-assembled the clutch basket with new, longer, springs and a new Barnett clutch pack.....the transmission backlash when riding the bike has now gone, but I am noticing worse vibration at higher engine speeds and I wonder if the basket is now out of balance?
Also, if the basket undergoes balancing, how do you address the task of actually correcting the imbalance?
Any ideas?

Had the same problem with mine after fitting new longer die springs.
But i had my basket balanced but the vibrations are there.
The basket and the clutch pack cannot be balanced together.
And you really cannot balance the clutch pack, just the basket.
The weight is taken off by drilling small holes or grooves into the back gear.
With the old-loose springs i had no vibrations at all. But with the new longer DIE springs it vibrates like crazy on deceleration. On acceleration - no vibrations.
Am in the process of fitting a new K1300S basket on mine, after test drive will inform about the vibrations, are they still there or gone.
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  #264  
Old 02-18-2017, 03:49 AM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Cheers Screwy, I will take the basket to a specialist balancing shop.....
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  #265  
Old 02-18-2017, 10:47 AM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Found a local (to me) balancing specialist, I'm hoping a dynamic balance will reduce most of the vibration.
Will give them a call on monday.

http://www.balancingservices.co.uk/services.php
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  #266  
Old 02-18-2017, 10:50 AM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Quote:
Originally Posted by screwy
Had the same problem with mine after fitting new longer die springs.
But i had my basket balanced but the vibrations are there..

Was it balanced static or dynamic?
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Old 02-18-2017, 12:26 PM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Quote:
Originally Posted by panason1c
Was it balanced static or dynamic?
Static
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  #268  
Old 02-18-2017, 12:48 PM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Tossing an idea out here which I hope is false.
Some auto cranks are balanced by tagging a weight on the flywheel. It's a cheap way and causes secondary imbalance but works for low performance cars. Is there a chance BMW matches the clutch imbalance to the rest of the motor imbalance for a smoother overall engine?

It would explain what I read about people changing clutches and the engine getting smoother or rougher. If that is the case us shade trees would have to use trial and error to find the right spot after modifying the clutch. Or find a very talented balance shop.
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  #269  
Old 02-18-2017, 01:10 PM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Quote:
Originally Posted by screwy
Static

I'll report the results of the dynamic balance of the basket, when completed.
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  #270  
Old 02-22-2017, 11:57 AM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Here is an interesting article about the connection between vibrations and clutch basket springs.

http://www.ricardo.com/PageFiles/354...ail_VALDYN.pdf
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  #271  
Old 02-22-2017, 01:34 PM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

So!.....is fitting stronger and longer springs a bad thing?
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  #272  
Old 02-22-2017, 02:07 PM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Quote:
Originally Posted by panason1c
So!.....is fitting stronger and longer springs a bad thing?
Not really, it depends on the springs. If the springs are too stiff or too soft, there can be increased resonance that causes vibrations. The original spring stiffness is specially calculated by the manufacturer, so that the resonance is minimal. If we change the springs to different ones - noticeable vibrations can appear. So if new springs are fitted, they must be as close to the originals as possible to avoid increased vibration.

I think this could be the cause of the vibrations that appeared on my bike after putting in similar springs like in this thread. http://www.i-bmw.com/showthread.php?t=56173
At least i cant think of any different reason why these vibrations suddenly appeared out of nowhere. Maybe the basket was balanced improperly, but it was done by a professional i trust (have done a lot of balancing at this shop).
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Old 02-22-2017, 07:25 PM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

I had some small vibration too, but the strange thing that it did not increase or decrease by applying throttle- it was in all rpm range but about similar. Anyway was not completely happy about the result so yesterday striped the basked again and grinded down the BIGGEST 4 springs to be exactly as long as slots. I made them to fit just fine, with no force at all, but not loose.
Result- vibration decreased about twice! It was not big on a start, but now it is very small.

So i guess you can place ether stronger springs or longer springs- but not stronger and longer. Combination of two factors looks not working good- it is simply to much. As oem springs getting shorter to fast, probably the best solution would be to use stronger and at most same length as slots are.

(by the way it is K1200R basket)
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Old 02-23-2017, 12:01 AM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Quote:
Originally Posted by icecolder
I had some small vibration too, but the strange thing that it did not increase or decrease by applying throttle- it was in all rpm range but about similar. Anyway was not completely happy about the result so yesterday striped the basked again and grinded down the BIGGEST 4 springs to be exactly as long as slots. I made them to fit just fine, with no force at all, but not loose.
Result- vibration decreased about twice! It was not big on a start, but now it is very small.

So i guess you can place ether stronger springs or longer springs- but not stronger and longer. Combination of two factors looks not working good- it is simply to much. As oem springs getting shorter to fast, probably the best solution would be to use stronger and at most same length as slots are.

(by the way it is K1200R basket)

Thanks for the feedback!
I think the springs would have shortened by 1mm after a few hundred kilometers anyway.
Some K1300 riders have reported increased vibrations when the bike is new, and after a couple of thousand miles the vibrations have disappeared. This could be the same case.
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Old 02-23-2017, 12:39 PM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

I also stripped my basket again today, due to increased vibration since fitting springs, and shortened the springs to fit more easily, I suspected that the springs might not be all the same weight and causing an imbalance, so I weighed them and found them all to be different weights with a 5 gram variation.......I ground the springs so that they all weighed exactly the same.
The basket is now reassembled and it will be dynamically balanced tomorrow.

Can someone tell if the basket runs at half engine speed?, (or thereabouts?) as I think it would be helpful to the balance guy if he new what max speed the basket runs at.
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Old 02-23-2017, 01:31 PM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Not exactly sure - but if you divide engine rpm by the primary drive ratio of 1.559, will this give you the rpm of the clutch basket??
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Old 02-23-2017, 02:11 PM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Quote:
Originally Posted by panason1c
I also stripped my basket again today, due to increased vibration since fitting springs, and shortened the springs to fit more easily, I suspected that the springs might not be all the same weight and causing an imbalance, so I weighed them and found them all to be different weights with a 5 gram variation.......I ground the springs so that they all weighed exactly the same.
The basket is now reassembled and it will be dynamically balanced tomorrow.

Can someone tell if the basket runs at half engine speed?, (or thereabouts?) as I think it would be helpful to the balance guy if he new what max speed the basket runs at.

http://www.motorcycle-usa.com/photog...ain.jpg?378220

I guess you would have to know that ratio between the basket drive gear to crank output gear....
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Old 02-23-2017, 02:59 PM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Surely that is the published 'Primary Drive' ratio of 1:1.559 ?
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Old 02-23-2017, 05:08 PM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

If i remember correctly basket gear has about 92 or 94 tooth.. And the crakshaft sprocket has something about 60 tooth.. So basket should spin at ~2/3 of engine speed. If max engine rpm is 11000, than basket should spin at about 7000. This is only mine opinion. Might be wrong.
To find max speed of basket you should count the teeth on a basket and a teeth on a camshaft sprocket and compare the numbers.

panason1c, if you have adjusted your springs to the same weight and assambled the basket, you could make a test without balancing to find out is it really the weight of the springs so important. Might be the balancing would not be necessary.
I havent weighted my springs, just shortened them to about equal length and have a very very small vibration on handlebars. Acceptable vibrations, but could be better.
If you made springs weight the same and vibration would completely dissapear, than that would be an answer how important it is also make them match by weight.
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Old 02-23-2017, 06:27 PM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Quote:
Originally Posted by icecolder
panason1c, if you have adjusted your springs to the same weight and assambled the basket, you could make a test without balancing to find out is it really the weight of the springs so important. Might be the balancing would not be necessary.
I havent weighted my springs, just shortened them to about equal length and have a very very small vibration on handlebars. Acceptable vibrations, but could be better.
If you made springs weight the same and vibration would completely dissapear, than that would be an answer how important it is also make them match by weight.

Yes, it would be a good test but I dont want to keep installing and uninstalling the basket......it makes more sense to balance it whilst I have it removed, after all, professional dynamic balancing can only improve things.
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Old 02-24-2017, 12:56 PM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Got the basket balanced today, it was 2.5 grams out of balance at 850 rpm....Prior to balancing, I adjusted the springs to weigh exactly the same as each other so I gues that helped things.... The guy said 2.5g was probably within manufacturers tolerance but he continued and balanced it to zero.
All back together and I am pleased with the result, there is still what I would call 'normal' vibration at high speeds, but not too intrusive compared to before......The most noticeable difference, attributable to the longer basket springs, is the 'tightness' of the driveline, no slack between throttle on and throttle off and improved gearchanging.
BTW, I have re-used the alloy clutch cover bolts twice now, I tighten them to 5nm and no leaks.
Work carried out.....
New basket centre bearing and inner bush
New Barnett clutch plate pack,
Damper springs replaced with longer, stronger springs,
Dynamic balance of basket
Oil pump chain adjusted (was too slack and rubbing against casing)
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Old 02-24-2017, 01:16 PM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

The only comment I have, and it is not a criticism, is that you have so many rotating parts on the clutch assembly, you cannot be sure if balancing the basket was the actual cure. Glad you have improved your ride.

In addition to dealing with one variable at a time as previously mentioned elsewhere, one has to consider the possibility of what is referred to as error stacking. In any assembly there are tolerances in each component. Most times these make no difference because they generally don't align or there are not enough components to make a difference. If by bad luck, all the tolerance errors (weight or dimension) stack in the same direction, there can be problems. This problem may mysteriously go away if the assembly is disassembled then reassembled without any change (other than orientation) to those components making the assembly. Garage magic we all have experienced.
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Old 02-25-2017, 06:12 AM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

By the way, if someone is trying to install the clutch pushrod into an older K1200 engine, that had the shorter version, without the tail. Than you need to take off with a lathe approximately 0,50-0,55mm and it will fit perfectly.
The pushrod version i have is with the 2 grooves and is 72,20mm long. The diameter should be 9,95-10,00mm to fit as good as possible.
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Old 02-25-2017, 08:56 AM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Quote:
Originally Posted by WPV
The only comment I have, and it is not a criticism, is that you have so many rotating parts on the clutch assembly, you cannot be sure if balancing the basket was the actual cure. Glad you have improved your ride.

In addition to dealing with one variable at a time as previously mentioned elsewhere, one has to consider the possibility of what is referred to as error stacking. In any assembly there are tolerances in each component. Most times these make no difference because they generally don't align or there are not enough components to make a difference. If by bad luck, all the tolerance errors (weight or dimension) stack in the same direction, there can be problems. This problem may mysteriously go away if the assembly is disassembled then reassembled without any change (other than orientation) to those components making the assembly. Garage magic we all have experienced.

Update.....Been out again today and I can confirm that the bike feels better than ever!....vibration is reduced to a minimal level that makes the bike even more of a pleasure to ride.
100mph was a problem (vibration), now its not.

Whether it is due to balancing the basket, or balancing the weight of the springs, or a combination of both, I'll never know (or care)
The Barnett plates work smoothly, still a clunk going into 1st gear but much reduced from before.

Just got to service it and fit new tyres now before my tour of Spain and Portugal in April (-:
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Old 02-25-2017, 01:52 PM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

I would bet that shortened springs and making them equal mass made the biggest improvement. Because for example i have NOT weighted my springs and did not adjusted them by mass, just shortened them to fit the slots and did not balanced my basket and vibrations went down to the very minimal level.
Also adjusted valve clearances and played a little with balancing shafts and after all this bike now goes soooooo smooooth!!! I have mine from nearly new and can not remember did it ever felt more smooth. Anyway good to hear your bike is OK now too.
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Old 02-25-2017, 02:48 PM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Nice to hear that guys!

I am still in process, need to change the oil pump chain ( need to take the exhaust manifold off and then the oil sump). A bit of a pain in the a..
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Old 03-03-2017, 10:38 AM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Quote:
Originally Posted by screwy
By the way, if someone is trying to install the clutch pushrod into an older K1200 engine, that had the shorter version, without the tail. Than you need to take off with a lathe approximately 0,50-0,55mm and it will fit perfectly.
The pushrod version i have is with the 2 grooves and is 72,20mm long. The diameter should be 9,95-10,00mm to fit as good as possible.

Screwy, just to confirm, you are saying to take .55mm off the dia, correct?
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Old 03-03-2017, 10:54 AM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Yes
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Old 03-05-2017, 07:28 AM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Yesterday (4th March 2017) I re-fitted my clutch that was refurbished and modified by @fourhundred4 and after a 20 mile test ride I'm delighted to report that not only is the clutch back to it's brand new feel it actually feels better than stock!

As to be expected with a new clutch getting neutral is now a joy instead of a chore, however the lever feel is much lighter and more linear and progressive across the range. I'm having to retrain my left hand not to grab handfulls of clutch anymore as it now starts to release after about 1" of pull - something I have never experienced on this bike since I bought it in the summer of 2012 (with 12,000 miles from the previous owner).

Taking off from standstill the judder I used to experience has been greatly minimised and although I usually use the quickshifter after first gear I tried a few gear changes using the clutch and it was as smooth as silk.

One thing I will also have to get accustomed to is down-shifting. With the old clutch activating so late in the pull, and being more of a switch, I now need to work on the timing to pulling in the new clutch with my downshifts. This will naturally come soon.

One odd thing I noticed on my 20 mile test ride is an unusual sound when accelerating whilst the bike is cold. At first I thought it was my new Shoei helmet filtering different frequencies and I was hearing more induction roar than exhaust growl, but in less than 1 mile it had settled down and the bike sounded normal again. I stopped after 10 miles to check for oil leaks and was off the bike for less than 10 minutes. When I rode off again the sound had returned only to disappear less than half a mile later. This is why I think it might be engine, or more likely oil temperature related.

I was recording on my helmet camera at the time and so did quick edit of the different notes for comparison. Have a listen to the You Tube link below and let me know what you think. As you will hear it's not a nasty mechanical noise, more a guttural growl. I quite liked it actually - it reminded me more of a Honda 600 engine note! I half wondered if adding Japanese plates had caused the change...

https://youtu.be/dC_0jJ-jcGQ

It did feel like the bike had less torque when making this sound however the clutch doesn't appear to be slipping so I'm not concerned. My feeling is this is something of a new clutch phenomenon and it will eventually disappear.

Also the rattle at idle seems to be lesser than before! Maybe I am imagining that bit? (I didn't get the basket rebuilt as the rattle didn't annoy me in the past and John felt it wasn't necessary at this stage)

As you might guess I'm completely delighted with the new clutch and the feel of the lever. It definitely has that lovely Japanese bike soft and light linear pull feel (reminiscent of my old CBF1000) and feels tight and sturdy when engaged. Of course high torque acceleration is now slip-free and the smoother take offs from standstill are a joy.

It's thanks to dedicated people like John who put in the hard work and research that these soon to be classic bikes will still be on our roads for years to come.

If your BMW K12/13 bike's clutch needs attention I highly recommend that you get in contact with @fourhundred4 and use his very reasonable expert service to refurbish your clutch pack.

Photo of finished installation prior to clutch cover installation: http://www.i-bmw.com/gallery/showpho...=38914&cat=509

Peter D
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Old 03-05-2017, 08:18 AM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

And in the forum spirit of paying it forward here are my thoughts and experience of the whole process that others might find useful:

•Don't buy any parts from BMW until you have removed the clutch. You'll have a much clearer idea of what you need when you have the old parts in your hand! I had to go back a second time to buy a new centre nut as I had partially sheared the old one trying to get the damn thing off...

•I ended up needing two 30mm sockets for the centre nut. A hefty impact one to release the nut that was unfortunately too chunky to slip inside the clutch spring (you can release the 6 hexagonal bolts that free the clutch plates so that you can use a fatter socket), and a second slim one for re-torquing the centre nut when the clutch pack was in situ. Both from Amazon:
Heavy duty for removal: https://goo.gl/IMJWJS
Slim socket for replacement: https://goo.gl/4uD9Z1

•Don't bother buying a long breaker bar as whatever length you end up with you will end up needing to slip a pipe of at least 1.5m/5ft over it to generate enough torque to break the tension! I bought a 750mm bar when I could have used my 30mm bar and a pipe...

• I bought too many bolts from BMW after reading too many posts about this subject. Granted I have an R&G crash protector on my clutch slave cylinder which has its own 4 (steel) bolts but even then I ended up with too many. To be clear you need 17 x 25mm M6 bolts and 1 x 20mm M6 bolt for the actual clutch case, 2 x 20mm M6 bolts for the heat shield (if you decide to change these too - IMHO not necessary) and 4 x 20mm M6 bolts for the clutch slave cylinder.

• The K Series Engine Locking Tool that is made by cymarcbikeparts.co.uk works a treat although I had to file it down in places as the fit was too tight on my clutch pack. I now have one for sale if anyone is interested!
https://goo.gl/dAedmG

• You don't need the BMW engine locking tool but you do need their Locating Tool (Part number 11 2 671 Order number 83 30 0 401 524) to re-fit the clutch basket. If you're only removing the clutch pack and not removing the clutch basket you won't need this bit of kit.

• Re-fitting the clutch basket is fiddly and takes patience. One the gear has been pretensioned with the tool you'd imagine it would glide on but you may find (like me) that the oil pump gear dogs don't line up. A bit of fingering behind the clutch basket is needed to rotate the oil pump gear until it mates.

• Getting the clutch pack sufficiently soaked in oil is a must. I left mine overnight and again before fitting I poured more oil through the plates. You don't need to loosen the pack to get enough oil around the plates and steels, just enough so when it first spins there is oil being splashed around the plates.

• Sliding in a pre-tightened clutch pack is an absolute pain. I ended up using a block of wood I used to support Engine Locking Tool to cushion a few gentle taps (using said tool!) to encourage the pack back into the basket.

• Re-fitting the thrust bearing, thrust adapter and the clutch cover is a doddle. It's amazing how quickly everything comes together at this stage.

•You don't need a torque wrench to tighten the clutch cover bolts. With a short socket ratchet you can feel just how little torque is required. I found doing a first tighten in sequence, followed by a short ride to warm up and then a second final torque to be perfect.

• As is always the case with mechanical works the complex parts are often quite simple, whereas the simple tasks sometimes end up being surprisingly complex. Take your time, enjoy the process and you'll feel immense self-satisfaction when it's finally complete and working.

Have fun!

Peter D
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Old 03-05-2017, 09:55 AM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterD
Also the rattle at idle seems to be lesser than before! Maybe I am imagining that bit? (I didn't get the basket rebuilt as the rattle didn't annoy me in the past and John felt it wasn't necessary at this stage)
Peter D

Sorry to say that but there should not be any rattlig at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterD
• You don't need the BMW engine locking tool but you do need their Locating Tool (Part number 11 2 671 Order number 83 30 0 401 524) to re-fit the clutch basket. If you're only removing the clutch pack and not removing the clutch basket you won't need this bit of kit.
Peter D

You do not need even this one. 3,0 mm drill bit works perfect for that and fits in tight and does the job as good as bmw tool. Cost a few cents only.
And at all- the only special tool you need is clutch basket holding tool. (That big ring with a handle). Nothing more.

Also on removing/installing the basket very useful tool is a feeler gauge plate of 0.10 mm which is cut in half over the length to make it more narrow. Place this plate between the basket gear and crankshaft gear, rotate basket a coumple degrees to compress the feeler gauge plate. This way scissor gear of the basket and also alternator scissor gear will unload. Then 3,0 mm drill bit gets into the alternator gear hole easily, and basket slides out very easy- with no force at all and no need to jiggle it or something like other people suggest.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterD
• I bought too many bolts from BMW after reading too many posts about this subject.
Peter D

There is no need to buy new bolts if you do not reach the declared torque when reusing bolts. If gasket is ok and contacting surfaces are nice and clean, than use old bolts, just use a smaller torque than needed. I already reused my bolts and gasket 6 or 7 times- not a single drop of oil gets through and no bolts got loose.

Hopes this helps some time and money for thous who planing their repairs
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Old 03-05-2017, 10:03 AM
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Smile Re: K1300s clutch problems

Each to their own. That was just my experience. YMMV...
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Old 03-05-2017, 01:24 PM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

As above, I have re-used the gasket and clutch cover bolts twice now, I torque to 5nm only...... no leaks!
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Old 03-24-2017, 03:16 AM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Hey!

Does anyone know the thickness of new K1300 clutch friction plates?
Can`t find any info nowhere.
I have a set of used ones, thinking of putting them in, but want to be sure, if they are still usable for some time, not just for a few thousand km. Their thickness ir 4,1mm.
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Old 03-24-2017, 11:54 AM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Hey all!

So I ordered a set of springs from Ice(thanks again!), and pulled the clutch apart on my K12s this week. I was pleased to find that my 07' has what looks to be the second gen clutch set up. It has the thrust adapter ver 2, with the tail and 1 machined slot. (I was very pleased by this). The very first plate was *slightly* gunked up and as a result sustained a tiny bit more wear than the others, but no where near in as bad of shape as I was expecting. I flipped that plate, and drilled a new hole in the hub as to avoid future issues with premature plate wear. I may decide to replace the plates in the future...as for right now I think they are okay as is, or at least for another 25K miles. All surfaces on the gears looked to be in great shape with little to no scoring. Most wear I found was on the washers which I assume is normal from all the backlash chatter. All the bearing surfaces looked good as well.

I am having a shop mill in another slot on the tail of the thrust adapter @ 90* from the other. This along with the new hole in the hub should provide adequate oil flow to the basket from here on out. Once I get the new springs in the mail, I should be all set to re-assemble the clutch and put it back in the bike. I am also waiting for a budget clutch tool from the UK in order to properly re-torque the hub nut. I used an impact and oil filter wrench to remove it. I had to remove the 6 screws in the center and use the oil filter wrench to hold the ribs steady while I hit it with the impact. Worked like a dream. I also noted that the oil pump chain was pretty loose, so I will be addressing that during re-assembly.

On a side note: I did notice that there was quite a bit of material in the clutch hub for threading...has anyone attempted to thread the stock hub and use class 10 bolts for re-assembly? I was also thinking using inserts would be a good idea to strengthen the threads even further. I also noticed that holes in the hub are in fact tapered...which would have to be honed first, and then threaded. I am not so keen on the thought of having to re-drill out those rivets again in the future.

Dan
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  #296  
Old 03-24-2017, 12:05 PM
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panason1c panason1c is online now
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2wheels1<3love
I also noticed that holes in the hub are in fact tapered...which would have to be honed first, and then threaded. I am not so keen on the thought of having to re-drill out those rivets again in the future.

Dan

Wouldn't standard replacement non-tapered rivets 'swell' during installation and take up the tapered form?
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Old 03-24-2017, 12:15 PM
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2wheels1<3love 2wheels1<3love is offline
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Quote:
Originally Posted by panason1c
Wouldn't standard replacement non-tapered rivets 'swell' during installation and take up the tapered form?

yes, I think that is done on purpose to aid in alignment but thats just a guess. I was thinking more of countersinking the back plate and threading the aluminum holes...many aftermarket kits use this approach in quads and dirtbikes when replacing rubber dampers.

I would imagine something like this could be used as well. Of course minus the fancy robot arm lol
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7PUIxl51L14
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  #298  
Old 03-26-2017, 03:56 PM
icecolder icecolder is offline
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Heat the rivets until they are red and then install and they will take a form of a hole. Best to give this job to car service where they do brake lining- they have equipment and job will be done as it should.

Interesting found- on several splitted baskets smaller holes was 7,2mm and no difference, but the bigger hole is a little different for everyone- seen 7.7, 7.6 , 7.4- on every basket they are different.. Guess it depends who worked that day in factory
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  #299  
Old 05-05-2017, 06:31 AM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Hay guys First on this thread!

So I have an 09 K1300S with 83K on it and just discovered through my Spanner monkey that the plates are shot and from what he is describing, either the drive dog and or the lock plate needs replacing as well.

Quoted price for replacement is $1300 AUD Freaking Ouch, as the replacement part is a single part number 2127700514 from BMW.

Clutch plate assemply 2127700514.jpg

So I know you can get replacement plates after market but not the drive or the lock plate.

Any suggestions for this as i dont and should not have to replace the lot at 83000 or do I?

BMW (Bring Massive Wallet)
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Old 05-05-2017, 07:07 AM
paulmogs paulmogs is offline
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

This may help.

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Tamburo-F...item237c803d2d
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