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  #1  
Old 04-22-2018, 12:52 PM
Daddiator Daddiator is offline
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Hilltop Motorcycles

Hi, Not sure if this breaches any advertising rules but I have just got back from a trip to Hilltop motorcycles in Hinkley UK where they sorted the ecu out for me and had to share my experience with you.
Apparently they install a program on the ecu that runs alongside the existing ecu map that can not be detected by anyone else including BMW dealers.They do not re-map.
All I can say is WOW! its like riding a different bike.
They did a before and after dyno run and at mid-range Its producing 50hp more and right throughout the rev range there is a considerable increase. Also torque is substantially more throughout too.
I will try to figure out how to post a picture of the dyno results.
Riding the bike back home I kept laughing in my helmet it was so much fun.

I can't praise them enough and its the best £360 I have spent on the bike.
If you have any fueling issues and you are in the UK I think they will sort out your problem.
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Old 04-22-2018, 01:03 PM
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Re: Hilltop Motorcycles



The top two lines are before and after power and the bottom two are before and after torque.
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Old 04-22-2018, 01:07 PM
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Re: Hilltop Motorcycles

ok, the photo obviously didn't insert,
I clicked on insert image above and copied the link to it?
Can someone give me a quick instruction on how to put a photo on here?
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Old 04-22-2018, 01:21 PM
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Re: Hilltop Motorcycles

Colin
It would help if you said which bike you have.
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Old 04-22-2018, 01:40 PM
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Re: Hilltop Motorcycles

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daddiator
ok, the photo obviously didn't insert,
I clicked on insert image above and copied the link to it?
Can someone give me a quick instruction on how to put a photo on here?

Colin
Go to "Gallery" and upload your photo to your album and then copy and paste the link to your post.
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Old 04-22-2018, 03:23 PM
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Re: Hilltop Motorcycles

http://www.i-bmw.com/gallery/showpho...8/limit/recent
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Old 04-22-2018, 03:24 PM
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Re: Hilltop Motorcycles

Hi Welshman, Thanks for the photo tutorial, I think it has worked now, My bike is a 2014 K1300s.
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Old 04-22-2018, 04:19 PM
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Re: Hilltop Motorcycles

Colin

Well done for sorting the photo out.

Looking at it you don't really mean a 50hp increase in a K1300s.

Still noticeable and there are a lot of people who support Hilltop on the UK Gsers forum.

I looked this up as I'm thinking about buying a GSA for a trip around Argentina etc later this year and I was looking at the UK GSers forum who seem to have nothing but good to say about the Hilltop tuners.
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Old 04-22-2018, 05:22 PM
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Re: Hilltop Motorcycles



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Old 04-22-2018, 05:23 PM
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Re: Hilltop Motorcycles

Unless I am not reading the graph correctly? but at just over 7000 revs on the first run it was showing about 80hp and on the second run at the same revs it is showing about 130hp.
This is right in the mid range where you use it most and coupled with the torque increase it has made a huge difference to the ride.
You are right that they have a good reputation and as I am lead to believe they do a lot of work with the BSB teams. They were certainly very busy when I was there.
It is slightly cheaper at £300 if they just install their program and you don't have the dyno runs. I believe they also offer a discount if you return in the future with a different bike.
I am starting to sound like a sales rep but I have no affiliation with them other than a very very happy customer who want's to let anyone on here know what a difference it made.
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Old 04-23-2018, 06:18 AM
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Re: Hilltop Motorcycles

Aha I see what you mean about the mid-range increase.

What's the effect on fuel consumption?
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Old 04-23-2018, 08:22 AM
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Re: Hilltop Motorcycles

I haven't really done enough miles yet to make a comparison but they said that because the engine is running more efficiently now it shouldn't increase too much. But I suppose that depends on how you ride it.
Maybe after I have done a few more miles I will come back on here to give an update.
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Old 04-23-2018, 01:18 PM
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Re: Hilltop Motorcycles

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daddiator
I haven't really done enough miles yet to make a comparison but they said that because the engine is running more efficiently now it shouldn't increase too much. But I suppose that depends on how you ride it.
Maybe after I have done a few more miles I will come back on here to give an update.

The K1300 like most if not all modern motorcycles runs very lean to make the emission numbers and fuel consumption better. I understand that some of the vibration we get is due to this lean running so I'll be interested to know if you think the bike runs a bit smoother even if it's at the expense of a slightly increased fuel consumption.
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Old 04-23-2018, 01:31 PM
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Re: Hilltop Motorcycles

Geebus, where can I get that done in the US?
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Old 04-23-2018, 02:44 PM
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Re: Hilltop Motorcycles

What gear did they do the baseline run in? It looks suspiciously like it was done in 3rd gear, which is restricted from the factory as are 1st and 2nd. I donít doubt you got a tremendous improvement with whatever they did, but you could get the same results with a booster plug and gear indicator spoof. But if they claim BMW canít detect the changes, they probably used the BMW factory software to remove the restrictions in gears 1-3 and tweaked the AFR. But with as few details as they gave you itís hard to know.

As for where to get a similar thing done in the USA? BrenTune and Rexxer will flash the ECU. A PowerCommander or Bazzaz box will do similar but requires an all day install. I donít recommend them, but MaxBMW claims to do similar to what your dealer claims to have done. Iím planning on going with the BrenTune.
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Old 04-23-2018, 03:30 PM
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Re: Hilltop Motorcycles

Quote:
Originally Posted by cstumpf750
What gear did they do the baseline run in? It looks suspiciously like it was done in 3rd gear, which is restricted from the factory as are 1st and 2nd.

It's news to me that 1st, 2nd and 3rd are restricted ex factory. Where did you get that from?
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Old 04-23-2018, 03:32 PM
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Re: Hilltop Motorcycles

I had a booster plug fitted prior to taking it to HillTop but on their instructions removed before they did their bit. So I can without doubt say that the booster plug didn't improve the engine anything like as much.
I have a video of them doing the dyno and after the warm up the test was done in top gear on both runs.
This is their website with a little information on what the do.

http://hilltopmotorcycles.co.uk/

Having had a long chat with Geoff it seems there is a part of the ecu that is not used and which BMW is not licensed to access. It is this part of the ecu that HillTop put their software on which runs alongside the stock software. Therefore nothing is altered and BMW can't detect the additional software. He explained it as the additional software interacts with the ecu giving optimised fueling and ignition timing throughout the rev range.
Ewan McGregor and Charlie boardman took their GS to them prior to filming Long way Round. They work with British and world superbike teams as well.
I went out on it again today just for giggles, and its just a rocket ship...
With regard the vibration problem it has smoothed the bike out and it also idles very evenly now. I will come back on here to give an update on the fuel economy but I will willingly sacrifice a bit more fuel consumption for the improved performance.
Just as an aside for anyone not living in the UK, they apparently offer a service where you send them your ecu, they do their magic and send it back.You could even get a before dyno run done in your home country and then get another when the ecu has been returned?
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Old 04-23-2018, 03:44 PM
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Re: Hilltop Motorcycles

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daddiator
You could even get a before dyno run done in your home country and then get another when the ecu has been returned?

So Geoff WhereTheF*** do I find the ECU?
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Old 04-23-2018, 04:05 PM
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Re: Hilltop Motorcycles

Quote:
Originally Posted by Welshman
It's news to me that 1st, 2nd and 3rd are restricted ex factory. Where did you get that from?

The K1200 and K1300 are both restricted in gears 1-3 and also top gear near top speed. The butterflies controlled by the ECU are prevented from opening all the way. Most bikes from all manufactures do this. Itís why doing dyno runs in 4th gear is customary. I forget where in found that bit of info for the K1300, but any of the tuners will confirm it for you. Itís why PowerCommander and Bazzaz both make a box that tricks the ECU into thinking itís in 3rd gear. The downside of this method is that your gear indicator on the dash will only ever show N or 4. That I got from Bazzaz when I was considering going with them.
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Old 04-24-2018, 04:40 AM
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Re: Hilltop Motorcycles

Quote:
Originally Posted by cstumpf750
The K1200 and K1300 are both restricted in gears 1-3 and also top gear near top speed. The butterflies controlled by the ECU are prevented from opening all the way. .

The K1300s first 3 gears are limited by restricting the butterflies from opening to full throttle. This is achieved via a solenoid operated 'plunger' which is bolted to the throttle rail......simply undo 2 small bolts and remove the plunger from the rail but leave the electric plug connected to the plunger (this will prevent a fault code occurring).... use a cable tie to secure it out of the way. This 'mod' will not produce a fault code and full power will be available throughout all gears.
(I've done this to my K1300s, it works!!
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Old 04-24-2018, 09:10 AM
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Re: Hilltop Motorcycles

I understand (but don't agree with) the function to limit top speed as agreed to by manufacturers years ago. Does this air valve provide any other function such as traction control?
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Old 04-24-2018, 06:20 PM
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Re: Hilltop Motorcycles

Thinking about this, no codes.

https://brentuningmoto.com/product/bmw-k1300-2005-bmsk/
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  #23  
Old 09-11-2018, 09:22 AM
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Re: Hilltop Motorcycles

I own a 2016 Triumph Thruxton R and tried to deal with this vendor concerning a re-flash. Could never get them to answer specific questions by e-mail concerning exactly what they did to the Triumph ECU. There was a lot of interest on the Thruxton forum concerning this service and another member of the Triumph Thruxton forum called and talked to Geoff by phone from USA and was given essentially the same information stated earlier in this thread. Our member was told the Hilltop program is not a re-flash but a self learning program that will compensate for most common bolt on mods except changing the cam. This is where it gets a little hard to believe. We were told that the gains in HP & TQ would not show up on dyno testing except on Hilltop's dyno. Don't know if this is a accurate depiction of the conversation but if it is it is BS. Rear wheel dynos measure TQ & convert this to HP and they don't care what program is in the bikes ECU as there is no way for the dyno to directly see this. This occurred months ago and I did not risk sending my expensive Triumph ECU out of country based on the limited information. If in fact the K1300s is down 50HP through the midrange as the dyno from Hilltop shows the bike is severely limited.
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Old 09-11-2018, 11:23 AM
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Re: Hilltop Motorcycles

Hi Dynajohn, Everything in your thread is correct except the bit about the gains not showing up on a different dyno. That's complete nonsense. If you have your triumph dyno'ed prior to sending your ecu and then put it on the dyno when you have refitted it after Hilltop have done their stuff It will show the gains. Any dyno will.
I can only talk from experience and it made such a difference to my bike, transformed it. It still makes me grin when I open it up.
I have lots of biker friends here in the UK who upon buying a brand new bike take it straight to hilltop. At least 15 of them have had it done and not one of them hasn't noticed the improvement.
In my opinion it has been the single best modification I have done to it and by far the best performance gain per £ spent.
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Old 09-11-2018, 02:54 PM
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Re: Hilltop Motorcycles

Thanks for the clarification. I may consider sending my K1300s ECU to them to re-flash. What I was trying to do on my 2016 Triumph Thruxton was to raise the rev limit from 7,200 to 7,800 RPM and do away with the ECU cycling the throttle plates back to 80% open above 7,000 RPM's. They never gave me an answer one way or the other on this. Others on the forum just wanted a re-flash.
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Old 09-12-2018, 01:15 AM
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Re: Hilltop Motorcycles

How hard is it to get the ECU out?
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Old 09-13-2018, 04:08 AM
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Re: Hilltop Motorcycles

Disconnect the battery. Remove the saddle. The ECU sits right behind the oil tank.
Remove the plastic clamp on the oil tank side that holts the ECU in place.
Pull the ECU from under the lip that holds it on the rear side.
Pull the tabs that release the two ECU connectors. To get enough room to maneuver it may be necessary to cut the tie that holds the wiring loom to the frame.
Done.
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Old 09-13-2018, 07:27 AM
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Re: Hilltop Motorcycles

The great thing about being a "Senior Motorcyclist" is that the K1300S.MS has more than enough ooomph in every gear for me, so I can spend my tuning budget on boiled sweets and Tena for Men incontinence pads.
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Old 09-13-2018, 08:13 AM
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Re: Hilltop Motorcycles

All those years ago when looking for a solution to the fuelling on my K I went to HT guess I lasted 6/7 minutes and walked out.

Went Rexxer but Bren Tuning is along the same lines still have the bike with the said map and runs as well as it ever has.



Had the fuelling on my X/R sorted but this time went with a PC as Dyno's and fuelling have moved on what you need to look at is how level the A/F.

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Old 09-13-2018, 12:59 PM
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Re: Hilltop Motorcycles

Chris, do you have a "standard" Rexxer mapping installed or did you notify Rexxer in advance about what you had changed on your bike like a different can or air filters, so the mapping is more or less tailor made for your bike? Or was the bike tuned on the spot at a Rexxer dealer?
Did you install the mapping yourself with a Rexxer handheld unit?
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Old 09-13-2018, 01:38 PM
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Re: Hilltop Motorcycles

You supply make/model/year/exhaust/filter,Rexxer sent a map to my supplier so there is no such thing as generic,but!!! If the supplying agent has a dyno then it is possible to alter the map even more.
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Old 09-14-2018, 09:57 AM
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Re: Hilltop Motorcycles

One thing to keep in mind when looking at A/F ratios is that the stoic value for ethanol blended gasoline is not the same as the stoic for unblended gas. Since most of the gas in the US is blended the stoic value (ideal ratio for efficent combustion) is no longer 14.7/1 but richer at arounf 14.2/1. We used to tune motorcycles at around 13.2/1 for best power but that has shifted down to 12.8/1 to 13/1 with blended gas. Good tuning to get that flat A/F ratio across the RPM band.

Had the fuelling on my X/R sorted but this time went with a PC as Dyno's and fuelling have moved on what you need to look at is how level the A/F.

[/quote]
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Old 09-26-2018, 08:23 PM
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Re: Hilltop Motorcycles

Just so any of you in the US that were thinking about sending you're ECU to Hill Top they no longer accept work from the US.
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Old 09-27-2018, 04:11 AM
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Re: Hilltop Motorcycles

That does not surprise me in the slightest
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Old 09-27-2018, 09:48 AM
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Re: Hilltop Motorcycles

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisCannin
That does not surprise me in the slightest

Why seriously??? In a previous post you said you went to Hilltop and walked out after 6-7 minutes but you didn't explain why. You are in the same country with Hilltop and in a better position to know other guys that have experience with them than anyone here in the US. My only experience with them was sending e-mails asking for more detail about what parameters exactly in the tune they modified. Didn't get the information I was asking for so I did not send them my Triumph Thruxton-R ECU.
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Old 09-27-2018, 11:51 AM
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Re: Hilltop Motorcycles

Quote:
Originally Posted by dynajohn
Why seriously My only experience with them was sending e-mails asking for more detail about what parameters exactly in the tune they modified. Didn't get the information I was asking for so I did not send them my Triumph Thruxton-R ECU.

I didnít get the right answers either and I was talking to him!!

He clearly can do something what that is behind the smoke and mirrors and BS your guess is as good as mine for the kind of money he charges the very least I would expect is a full remap and even he admits he doesnít do that,at half the money he charges you could make some kind of case for what he does but iíve Been around motorcycle way to long to be taken in by his chat hence why I walked off and iíve Met others who have done the same.

Their are way to many other options out there.
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Old 09-27-2018, 05:59 PM
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Re: Hilltop Motorcycles

Well that was my initial reaction as well. I have been tuning and modifying motorcycles and cars for a long time and I was never told by a tuner that the results they achieved could not be seen on anyone else's dyno. Actually they (Hilltop) did not tell me this they (Geoff) told another Triumph forum member this when he was questioned by phone about his tuning process and results with the Triumph 1200cc Thruxton's.

That being said there are a lot of BMW owners that swear by Hilltop's work, particularly owners of RS bikes. I was actually going to send them my ECU from my R1200RT to see what they could do after reading Daddiator's experience and the experience of other BMW owners in Europe. As with my attempts to contact Hilltop before about my Triumph, 3 e-mail attempts went unanswered. Finally the fourth e-mail was answered by the sales department saying they no longer accepted work from the US but expressing interest in finding shops or motivated individuals here that would modify ECU's using their software. I replied that I would be interested in this but I needed information on what the representative agreement required (geographical territory's, license fees, etc.). I also offered to put them in contact with US high performance aftermarket businesses that I have relationships with. This was last week and no reply yet. I don't know why they no longer want to directly accept work from the US unless there are potential legal issues.
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Old 09-28-2018, 08:25 AM
ChrisCannin ChrisCannin is online now
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Re: Hilltop Motorcycles

With Power Commander/Rapidbike/Brentuning/Rexxer who are relatively happy to tell you what they are doing why bother with anything else.

What is quite a collectible item is a HT print out with the A/F
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Old 09-28-2018, 09:06 AM
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Re: Hilltop Motorcycles

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisCannin
With Power Commander/Rapidbike/Brentuning/Rexxer who are relatively happy to tell you what they are doing why bother with anything else.

What is quite a collectible item is a HT print out with the A/F

Agreed and I do not see how any tuning company can do a re-flash, that retains the stock narrowband A/F sensor, and control A/F ratios at near 13/1 which is what is required for max performance. I know they can stay in closed loop with a narrowband sensor for low throttle openings and cruising for good fuel economy since this is in the stoic range where the narrowband sensor is accurate. If they go open loop with changes to the fuel & ignition tables based on dyno tuning then the tune cannot adapt to changes such as lower restriction exhaust systems as claimed. I don't know of another ECU re-programmer that claims they can do this other than HT. I am obviously not fluent with these ECU re-flash bikes. I have used Power Commanders on many bikes for both fuel and ignition management. On my VFR1200F I used a Power Commander for fuel and a re-flashed ECU from Guhl Motors here in the US to remove the ECU restrictions that Power Commander cannot remove. Since HT claims their flash is self learning and they retain the stock narrow band A/F sensor I just cannot see how they do it. If they can even come close the big advantage with HT seems to be the claimed invisibility of the programming for warranty purposes.
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Old 09-29-2018, 08:21 AM
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Re: Hilltop Motorcycles

Chris I have decided to go with Brentuning. I contacted each and I think Bren makes the most sense for me. His handheld will hold 4 tunes (stock, Brentune for stock bike, Brentune for Akrapovich pipe and another one for whatever you want) and he will ship the programmer loaded with these tunes. In addition you still get his custom service where he trims the tune when you e-mail the tune back. Makes more sense to me than the BS from HT or another piggyback system. If I was going to go with another one it would be Rexxer.
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Old 09-29-2018, 11:59 AM
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Re: Hilltop Motorcycles

Where it gets complicated what works for the series isnít all that transferable to more modern bikes or should I say Euro bikes I wasted the best part of a year waiting for Rexxer to come up with something for my X/R that is the short story!! And in the end went with a PC.

Iíve two much older bikes with PCís work with Lambas fitted neither my Rexxer on my 12 or the latest PC on my X/R do in fact on the X/R they are not even on the bike I took them off and put blanking plugs in the Akra headers,which is what iíll Do with the K if I ever find any!!!
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Old 09-29-2018, 12:55 PM
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Re: Hilltop Motorcycles

"If in fact the K1300s is down 50HP through the midrange as the dyno from Hilltop shows the bike is severely limited."

I'm sorry but this just sounds...well I'm having a hard time believing it.

Maybe they got rid of the Solenoid that limits full-throttle in gears 1-2-3? Maybe their Dyno calibration is off?
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Old 09-29-2018, 02:19 PM
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Re: Hilltop Motorcycles

R111S I think what that dyno represents is a run in one of the lower gears that are limited at lower & midrange RPM's as a baseline (a pretty shady way of showing results) and a higher unrestricted gear after the changes to the ECU. You are right to mistrust that dyno sheet.
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Old 09-30-2018, 09:42 AM
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Re: Hilltop Motorcycles

Daddiator thanks for the original post on you're experience with the HT tune. I would have tried them if they still provided service to the US. As it turned out I am glad they don't since I feel I found a better alternative for ME based here in the US.
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Old 09-30-2018, 04:46 PM
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Re: Hilltop Motorcycles

Quote:
Originally Posted by dynajohn
Chris I have decided to go with Brentuning. I contacted each and I think Bren makes the most sense for me. His handheld will hold 4 tunes (stock, Brentune for stock bike, Brentune for Akrapovich pipe and another one for whatever you want) and he will ship the programmer loaded with these tunes. In addition you still get his custom service where he trims the tune when you e-mail the tune back. Makes more sense to me than the BS from HT or another piggyback system. If I was going to go with another one it would be Rexxer.
Report back when you have it done. I have the same bike '15 13s MS.
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Old 10-03-2018, 02:10 PM
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Re: Hilltop Motorcycles

I just fitted a power commander 5 and an Autotune to my bike last weekend. The PC came with a tune that the seller put on (Motofuel). That map right away made a huge difference in ride ability. We went on an 1000 mile trip to Arkansas and the bike just seemed to get smoother as we went along. I will take a look at the trim numbers tonight and see how much adjusting the Autotuner actually did.

My main issue before the tune was snatchy on/off throttle. It is really smooth now and more fun to ride. My clutchless downshifts are now much easier and more repeatable than before. Not sure if that is anything to do with the fuelling or not but it does seem a bit crisper when you blip to unload the gear during downshifts.

If I find anything interesting I will post it up here.

Brian
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Old 10-03-2018, 02:53 PM
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Re: Hilltop Motorcycles

Quote:
Originally Posted by dynajohn
Chris I have decided to go with Brentuning. I contacted each and I think Bren makes the most sense for me. His handheld will hold 4 tunes (stock, Brentune for stock bike, Brentune for Akrapovich pipe and another one for whatever you want) and he will ship the programmer loaded with these tunes. In addition you still get his custom service where he trims the tune when you e-mail the tune back. Makes more sense to me than the BS from HT or another piggyback system. If I was going to go with another one it would be Rexxer.

There is a mistake in this post of mine. I stated Bren Tuning would ship they're hand held tuner with up to four tunes. It is shipped blank with no tunes initially. You download the stock tune and e-mail it back to Bren. This is so they can verify the software version used in your ECU. Then they e-mail a tune based on your mods if any which you download into the hand held tuner and then into your bike. Theses Bren tunes are based on tunes they developed on their dyno for bikes with the same mods or very similar mods. This is similar to the dynojet map you get preloaded into a dynojet fuel programmer. The big difference is that Bren changes a lot of other stuff in the ECU program other than just fueling. You can read about these changes on their web site. The hand held Bren tuner can hold up to 4 tunes so one will be the stock tune you initially downloaded. Another will be the tune with the mods you currently have on the bike that they send back. A third can be for a future mod like a full exhaust system or a aftermarket slip on. The fourth tune could be anything you want that they have in their library of dyno generated tunes for instance a tune with more ignition advance for use with race fuel. The bulk of Bren's tuning for BMW's is for the 1000 RR street, drag race & road race customers. There are not as many tune choices available for the K1200 & K1300 BMW's because I suppose there are not that many of us that modify them.

Any of you guys that have tried different modifications and then dyno tested or tuned your bikes it would be interesting to see the results here.
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Old 10-03-2018, 05:12 PM
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Re: Hilltop Motorcycles

This is mine done years ago and still runs just the same Rexxer map/Akra can but not headers/no 02's/DNA filter

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Old 10-03-2018, 05:41 PM
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Re: Hilltop Motorcycles

Quote:
Originally Posted by Texasjock
I just fitted a power commander 5 and an Autotune to my bike last weekend. The PC came with a tune that the seller put on (Motofuel). That map right away made a huge difference in ride ability. We went on an 1000 mile trip to Arkansas and the bike just seemed to get smoother as we went along. I will take a look at the trim numbers tonight and see how much adjusting the Autotuner actually did.

My main issue before the tune was snatchy on/off throttle. It is really smooth now and more fun to ride. My clutchless downshifts are now much easier and more repeatable than before. Not sure if that is anything to do with the fuelling or not but it does seem a bit crisper when you blip to unload the gear during downshifts.

If I find anything interesting I will post it up here.

Brian

Interesting post. When I set out to improve the performance of my 2013 Honda VFR 1200F I used a combination of a power commander 5 with autotune along with a ECU reflash from Guhl Performance. Guhl like Bren could have provided fuel mapping but I had already bought and installed a PC-5 and autotune before Guhl had a reflash available. What Dynojet could not do was remove the built in ECU limiters or adjust the ignition timing. Honda had limited how far the throttle plates could open in the first three gears as well as limiting top speed to 156 MPH. So I used Guhl's reflash to remove the limiters and for a revised timing advance map but asked that they leave the fuel map stock and used the PC-5 for fuel mapping. Worked out well for me with that bike.
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Old 10-11-2018, 10:02 AM
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Re: Hilltop Motorcycles

Quote:
Originally Posted by Surfer
Report back when you have it done. I have the same bike '15 13s MS.

The Bren hand held tuner is due here today. I will download the stock tune and get it back to Bren tomorrow. Still waiting on the Sprint filters but when they arrive I will get it all back together, put some miles on it and report back impressions .
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