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"K12S/KR" Technical Q&A K1200S/R Technical Questions/Answers

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  #1  
Old 09-13-2017, 08:34 PM
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Judder spring

Hello, does anyone one know what judder spring works with a 06 k1200r. I realize one needs a narrower friction plate to accommodate this spring and other ring. Where can these be sourced and are they from another manufacturer? Thanks.
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  #2  
Old 09-14-2017, 04:08 AM
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Re: Judder spring

The spring / narrow clutch plate / narrow steel plate are not individually sold (new).
Ask a member called 4hundredfour if he can help you out....
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  #3  
Old 09-14-2017, 09:11 AM
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Re: Judder spring

Thanks Patrique, your videos are very informative with the right details addressed. What are your thoughts about this spring and clutch drag?
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  #4  
Old 09-14-2017, 03:54 PM
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Re: Judder spring

I had the judder and rattle when i bought the bike, but i modified "the pin", installed a 2008 basket and now the clutch is like it should be.

I have only large clutch plates/steel plates in my clutch assembly and no more problems. After the bike sits for a week it slightly judders for the first 2-3 traffic lights, but once the bike has run a couple of kilometers its gone.

In the first series of clutches (05-06) they initially put in a spring which had the tendancy to break. There was a recall in regards to that problem, and BMW Dealers had to replace the clutch assembly (if it broke).

After 06 to 08 (k1200) and 09 (k1300) they only put in clutch assemblys without the spring. At some stage they re-installed the spring which is now part of the OEM-Clutch replacement today when you order a new "lamellar pack".

My personal oppinion about the spring/small plate is that its not the best solution to the clutch judder.... And the small plate has a tendsncy to dig itself quickly a nasty groove into the aluminium hub which then renders the spring useless.

A better solution would be to get steelplates that are "prickled/dimpeled" (like a japanese bike has) to let the plates release better from the oil film and at the same time have residual oil in the pockets when re-engaging.....

The most important mod in my opinion though is to increase the oil flow to the plates by modifying the pin.... worked for me

Thanks for watching the videos....
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Old 09-14-2017, 04:38 PM
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Re: Judder spring

Thanks for the detailed reply Patrique. As per your video, I did remove the original aluminium oil plug. I purchased the long thrust rod with two slots and turned it down to run smoothly in the shaft. I have run the bike for a minute or so and then taken the slave cylinder off to look. There seemed to be plenty of oil in the shaft. Thanks for that guiding. Oh yes, I did as you also suggested and drilled the extra hole in the hope.
You mention dimpled steels for the clutch pack. Where does one source these? Are there some Japanese plates that fit?
Terry
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Old 09-14-2017, 05:00 PM
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Re: Judder spring

No problem....
Ask 4hundred4 (not sure if thats the right way his name is spelled)
He is rebuilding clutch baskets and uses dimpled plates.
Dont know where he gets them from.

So after modifying the pin and drilling the hole your clutch still judders?
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Old 09-14-2017, 07:13 PM
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Re: Judder spring

Patrique, I have written fourhundred4 a second time today. He hasn't responded to my first inquiry.
I just got this bike a couple of months ago and have put on just over 2000kilometers. Having read about the clutch problems, I followed your suggestions and also put in a new Barnett clutch pack. I ordered this before opening the bike up. The originals, with the green bands, looked quite good. No gumming up or wear on the pressure plate. I'm not a mechanic, but the internet has endless amounts of information to guide me. When putting it all back together, the most time consuming was finding the right position to tighten the six screw plate that holds the thrust bearing and the new rod. It spins freely. But fourhundred4 points out the diaphragm spring also has play that might throw things out. He didn't say how to align this. So if that is an issue, I'll have to open her up again.
The judder. Yes it's still there. It is worst when first started. The juddering is less after a good run, but still there. The odd aside here is where it happens in the clutch lever position. If there is no or little judder, it is noticeable out near the end of the lever travel. But with severe effects it begins not to long after the lever begins its release. When at its worst there is the initial judder soon after releasing the lever, then a quiet phase, then the juddering again as the lever is in the last bit of travel. This may be way to much info and of little use. But a Dr. wants all the noticed symptoms.
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Old 09-15-2017, 04:02 PM
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Re: Judder spring

When you modified the pin, you did take into consideration the tiny lip inside the transmission shaft, right?

If you you only machined down the first 3-4 cm and didn't modify the end bit (the part that would pertrude beyond the original length of the aluminium plug)then the pin might get stuck in the transmission shaft causing the clutch to drag in stages.... hope that makes sense.
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Old 09-15-2017, 07:33 PM
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Re: Judder spring

Well Patrique you might have hit on something. I thought I took that into consideration. But looking at it now maybe I need to go farther. Here is a photo. Thanks again for your time.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg IMG_4805.JPG (424.2 KB, 39 views)
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Old 09-16-2017, 05:17 AM
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Re: Judder spring

Thought it was suppose to be more like the following..

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Old 09-16-2017, 10:44 AM
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Re: Judder spring

Thats it.... thats how my pin looks like too now.
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Old 09-16-2017, 10:59 AM
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Re: Judder spring

Thanks to you both. I made an assumption from your video Patrique. You were talking about the different versions BMW went through with this oiler. The long pin was shown going into the shaft where the lip was mentioned to hold the aluminium plug. Seeing that pin was how I thought it should be. I guess I missed that engine never had an aluminium plug, therefore no internal lip! What is the thinking behind reducing the central portion of the pin to such an extent?
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Old 09-16-2017, 11:39 AM
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Re: Judder spring

The channel (channels) restrict the oil flow.
You do need to keep the end bit though, because the oil system does need some backpressure for the oil to get into the bearings.
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Old 09-16-2017, 02:47 PM
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Re: Judder spring

OK, I was wondering about the calculated restriction in oil flow by making the pin that long in the first place. Those longer channels through friction would control the oil flow. As hase been said, there is a finite amount of oil pressure for the whole engine, if more delivered in one area, less goes elsewhere. I was cautious about reducing the diameter not really knowing what I was doing. So I will now create a steel mushroom! Again a thanks for all the sharing. If you follow the oil slick, I'll be there!!!! I hope not.......
An aside here, in removing the clutch slave to look at the pin and oil flow, I found my new Oberon slave had made a small dent in the pin. This after only about 1000 kilometres! I wrote to Oberon about this and without hesitation said they would send me one with a flat rod. That is very good customer relations I would like to pass on.
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Old 09-17-2017, 12:57 PM
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Re: Judder spring

I am hesitant to take the pin down to the mushroom shape just yet. I did put the pin on the lathe and made it an even diameter along the whole length. I know the BMW engineers had something in mind with the original design. As we have seen they haven't gotten it right all the time. But I'll start by giving them some credit.
Here are my thoughts. The oil nozzle down at the end of the shaft delivers the oil to that void. The centrifugal force is not going to deliver oil down to the end. There is a certain amount of time to fill that chamber with oil. The continuos delivery of oil will lead to its migrating down the shaft. Then the pressure from the oil jet will force the oil down and out of those grooves in the pin. Centrifugal force will then spray oil into the basket. Back to the design of the pin. I don't see it as a stablizer for the clutch. Why would they cut two grooves that are not opposite of each other if it was ment to spin on its centre of mass and act as a stablizer? I'm curious why those channels are cut asymmetrically? So the length of those channels must have been part of the overall control of oil delivery, the friction they create. So I'm going step by nessessary step. Even making the diameter the same over the whole length still lets a bit more oil through. It's not a tight fit.
I just went for a short ride. With the bike in neutral and the clutch in, I started it. My thinking, let that chamber fill with oil and fling it around the basket. How long this actually takes, I have no idea. When in first and I let the clutch out, hardly any judder compared to what it was. The ride was uneventful! Although when I did start it in first, there was that slight nudge from some drag.
There is the lack of certainty when you change more than one thing at a time. As Patrique suggested, maybe because the pin was not taken down its whole length, the transition between the original diameter and the new was catching on the shaft. At any rate, looks like an improvement to be watched over a longer ride.
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Old 09-17-2017, 03:12 PM
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Re: Judder spring

I've been riding the modified pin for 12'000km and no problems since then.
The clutch isn't slipping (from too much oil), and the judder is minimal and only at the first couple of start/stops noticeable.

Glad it worked out for you.....
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Old 10-08-2017, 11:44 PM
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Re: Judder spring

I did a 2400 k ride last week and no trace of a judder at take off. There is still noticeable clutch drag at startup. With the bike in first and the clutch pulled in, she has that little push forward when started. I did find a brand new k1300 clutch basket on eBay. Over the winter I'll install the new one and have a look at the original one to see if the friction plates have dented the sides. I'm hoping it's that simple.
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