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  #121  
Old 03-15-2012, 10:36 AM
voxmagna voxmagna is offline
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Re: GregRS's journey into seal territory

Funny you mention about a hoist sagging overnight. Some years ago I bought a huge Chinese 2 or 3 ton garage style hydraulic trolley jack.

I jacked up the rear axle on the car, took off the wheels and drums then found next morning the car was a few inches from sitting on the driveway!

Fortunately, even the Chinese use standard seal sizes, they just don't know how to make them as good as Dowty. Bought new seals and the jack was better, but I no longer trust anything hydraulic to stay up for long periods.
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  #122  
Old 03-15-2012, 11:49 AM
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Re: GregRS's journey into seal territory

Quote:
Originally Posted by OfftheGrid
I have been looking and searching for the bulletin and come up empty. Do you have a copy you could share please?



Your Email is giving me "bounce backs"????

(reason: 554 delivery error: dd Sorry your message to xxxxxxxxx cannot be delivered. This account has been disabled or discontinued [#102]. - mta1173.mail.bf1.yahoo.com)
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  #123  
Old 04-12-2012, 09:42 PM
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Re: GregRS's journey into seal territory

Greg

It looks like I may be following in your footsteps shortly. Do you have a parts list of the replacement BMW and aftermarket items you used for your project?

Glad to see you other post with it back on the road.

Steve
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  #124  
Old 04-12-2012, 09:49 PM
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Re: GregRS's journey into seal territory

Quote:
Originally Posted by StevieVVet
Greg

It looks like I may be following in your footsteps shortly. Do you have a parts list of the replacement BMW and aftermarket items you used for your project?

Glad to see you other post with it back on the road.

Steve


i got my receipts around, i'll see if i can dig'em out and post the parts up.

if you want the viton oring for the clutch, pm me your address and i'll send one out to you. min order from md metrics is 10bucks, so i got a few of them.
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  #125  
Old 04-13-2012, 09:29 AM
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Re: GregRS's journey into seal territory

these are for a 2002 k1200rs

heres what i got from my list in another post, all was good togo

11117666186 SHAFT SEAL - 50X80X10 engine output
11211460456 O-RING - 19X4 replaced with a viton oring sourced elsewhere, which i can send you free
11211460696 COMPRESSION RING clutch
11211460797 HEX NUT - M20X1,5 clutch nut
21211454417 SCREW clutch housing bolts need 6
21211242377 WASHER for housing bolts need 6
23127705085 SHAFT SEAL - 17X28X7 driveshaft or slave cavity
23122330135 SHAFT SEAL - 25X40X6 driveshaft or slave cavity
11627662083 GASKET RING - exhaust, need 4
11621744323 HEX NUT - exhaust, need 4

tear down time to the rear main seal was 10 hours.


do remove the air breather
others have had luck keeping the battery tray in place.

i bought a new slave cylinder from beemerboneyard, didnt need it yet, but put in anyways since i was there

also you will need an angle gauge to set the clutch housing nut, i got one for a few bucks at autozone i think it was


when you receive your parts, check them. i had a wrong part, but i didn't need it anyways so no biggie,, but if i did, it woulda screwed me for a couple days
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  #126  
Old 04-13-2012, 11:29 AM
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Re: GregRS's journey into seal territory

Save your money for this isolated use of an angle Gage.

Just mark any apex of the retaining nut with a felt tip pen - - go to the next apex clockwise and mark the housing. Align the 2 marks and you have the prescribed
60° rotation of the nut. Yes, I know I'm cheap.





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  #127  
Old 04-13-2012, 03:51 PM
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Re: GregRS's journey into seal territory

i wouldn't call that cheap, i'd call it awesome. wish i knew that, coulda saved a few bucks
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  #128  
Old 04-16-2012, 10:53 AM
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Re: GregRS's journey into seal territory

Great job. Admire one who can take the time and do this and learn along the way and have it all be a success.

My time is limited as are my skills. Like you no garage available so I admire your work even more. My alternator failed in the fall at 86k and similar work was done to get to it. My swing arm had to but cut off but the rest of the work was straight forward. Then there is the "while there" work, Had the rear main seal and O ring and slave cylinder done. The clutch and rear seal had been changed at 7k Clutch was worn but still very operational but that clutch had 80k on it so changed it "while there".
The rear seal was still dry but the O ring was cracking and hard. So those were changed "while there". Slave cylinder was fine but "while there" changed it. "While there" had starter refreshed with new brushes. My total was far more than yours being around 2500.

Now at 93K all continues to be good in that department. Did notice a little play at 6-12 AND 3-9 with the rear wheel. Pivot bushings were loosened and retightened and that helped some. So will most likely have the rear drive bearing replaced this spring. This is the first time for that so I can't complain considering the mileage.

Again, great job on yours. Great advice as well from some very skilled dudes as well!!!!!

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  #129  
Old 04-16-2012, 11:01 AM
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Re: GregRS's journey into seal territory

Quote:
Originally Posted by NCStephen
Now at 93K all continues to be good in that department. Did notice a little play at 6-12 AND 3-9 with the rear wheel. Pivot bushings were loosened and retightened and that helped some. So will most likely have the rear drive bearing replaced this spring. This is the first time for that so I can't complain considering the mileage.

Again, great job on yours. Great advice as well from some very skilled dudes as well!!!!!

NCS


give the paralever bearings/bushings another look. i replaced mine in the fall and eliminated my 6-12 play. they where pretty bad off, but not visibly until removed.

just maybe you can get lucky and that be all it is.
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  #130  
Old 04-16-2012, 11:04 AM
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Re: GregRS's journey into seal territory

also no special tool for that,, torque the center, then mark it and slowly torque the outer till its where it needs to be, checking that the inner did not move.
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  #131  
Old 04-16-2012, 11:12 AM
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Re: GregRS's journey into seal territory

The pivot bearings replaced with bushings a few summers ago at 50k or there about. Will monitor the play. The rear wheel play for a long time has just barely been felt. Now it is more easily felt but not a lot of play yet.

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  #132  
Old 05-27-2012, 07:00 AM
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Re: GregRS's journey into seal territory

Quote:
Originally Posted by NCStephen
The pivot bearings replaced with bushings a few summers ago at 50k or there about. Will monitor the play. The rear wheel play for a long time has just barely been felt. Now it is more easily felt but not a lot of play yet.

NCS
Mine has had that (just noticeable) play from new to 120,000 miles and around 7 or 8 gear oil changes each time coming out as clean as it went in. It has concerned me a few times and looked for resolutions but never really made it to my priority list of worries. It hasn't gotten any worse over the years If it isn't broke....well you know.
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  #133  
Old 06-01-2012, 07:08 AM
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Re: GregRS's journey into seal territory

I'm going in.

Thanks to Greg for the viton O-ring and all of the people that have shared their unbelievable knowledge I am comfortable enough to take on the dreaded seal project.

Pre-ordered all the seals from Max BMW thanks to Greg's parts list. Made the 30mm cut away socket as described. Using Guard Dog spline lube (Bone yard) as recommended on another I-BMW thread.

Did the leaking timing cover two years ago as covered in another thread. So far so good on that.

Replacing the brake and clutch lines with Spieglers from Pirate while I'm in there.
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  #134  
Old 06-01-2012, 08:18 AM
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Re: GregRS's journey into seal territory

nothing like some quality time with your ride.

in all honesty it's really not that big of a job or difficult, just time consuming. and your saving a couple grand doing it yourself.




oh, and double check your parts with your list, i had one that they sent me that was wrong. instead of a seal, i got needle bearings. it was a seal that i didn't need, or get to so no biggie, it was a mis-order on my behalf,, one that goes infront of the clutch housing that wasn't removed.
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  #135  
Old 06-19-2012, 11:26 PM
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Re: GregRS's journey into seal territory

Wonderful thread on the rear main seal. I'm doing my third replacement right now on my 99 K1200RS and wish I'd seen this when I did my first one in 2006. The first went at 34K and I replaced it myself--and it only lasted about 600 miles and I blame myself. Replaced it again and this time I got 6000 miles until I began to notice the tell tale signs of another leak. I pulled the trans and clutch last weekend and it was leaking--very lightly--again. (Luckily the clutch is fine.)

I'm preparing for the third seal install and had a couple questions. First question--my last seal replacement called for it to be indented very slightly and I had a machine shop make a seal driver for the task. Sounds like yours had the same indent. However I read on the BMW MOA forum that the latest generation of seals are thinner and should be mounted flush with the casing.

http://www.bmwmoa.org/forum/showthread.php?t=61191 (4th post in thread).

Were your old and new seals the same width? It's hard to know what to do.

Second, where exactly can I find the Viton O-Ring? I've been on the Maryland Metrics web site and can find a 19 inside diameter x 27 od x 4 O-Ring but not in Viton. Is there a part number?

Thanks in advance.

Steve
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  #136  
Old 06-20-2012, 09:02 AM
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Re: GregRS's journey into seal territory

Quote:
Originally Posted by svineski
First question--my last seal replacement called for it to be indented very slightly and I had a machine shop make a seal driver for the task. Sounds like yours had the same indent. However I read on the BMW MOA forum that the latest generation of seals are thinner and should be mounted flush with the casing.

http://www.bmwmoa.org/forum/showthread.php?t=61191 (4th post in thread).

Were your old and new seals the same width? It's hard to know what to do.
Well, on my '03 the original seal was flush with the case and that's where I put the new one. Both seals were identical thickness. I've still got the original I pulled out that I can measure if you'd like. See a picture of my new one installed attached to the following post:
http://www.i-bmw.com/showthread.php?p=479690#post479690
I don't yet have a bunch of miles on it, but so far it seems OK.

Quote:
Second, where exactly can I find the Viton O-Ring? I've been on the Maryland Metrics web site and can find a 19 inside diameter x 27 od x 4 O-Ring but not in Viton.
Not sure why you have 27 in there? The parts fiche just says 19 x 4, which should be ID x cross section diameter. Here's a page on the MdMetrics site with viton o-rings (FPM = viton):
http://mdmetric.com/or/fpm80oringsizelisting.htm
Looks like P/N R398-20663 is the one. I got mine from GregRS since he had to order a minimum qty. He or someone else here might have some available.
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  #137  
Old 06-20-2012, 09:26 AM
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Re: GregRS's journey into seal territory

Quote:
Originally Posted by svineski
Wonderful thread on the rear main seal. I'm doing my third replacement right now on my 99 K1200RS and wish I'd seen this when I did my first one in 2006. The first went at 34K and I replaced it myself--and it only lasted about 600 miles and I blame myself. Replaced it again and this time I got 6000 miles until I began to notice the tell tale signs of another leak. I pulled the trans and clutch last weekend and it was leaking--very lightly--again. (Luckily the clutch is fine.)

I'm preparing for the third seal install and had a couple questions. First question--my last seal replacement called for it to be indented very slightly and I had a machine shop make a seal driver for the task. Sounds like yours had the same indent. However I read on the BMW MOA forum that the latest generation of seals are thinner and should be mounted flush with the casing.

http://www.bmwmoa.org/forum/showthread.php?t=61191 (4th post in thread).

Were your old and new seals the same width? It's hard to know what to do.

Second, where exactly can I find the Viton O-Ring? I've been on the Maryland Metrics web site and can find a 19 inside diameter x 27 od x 4 O-Ring but not in Viton. Is there a part number?

Thanks in advance.

Steve

Give these people a call. Min. buy is $10 http://www.metric-seals.com/ Their catalog is not the easiest to navigate.

The seal mounts flush and runs on the clutch housing. The MOA forum post is totally confusing. It says something about the seal running on the output shaft. The O-ring seals the output shaft.

My original and replacement seal were the same thickness. There were some changes in seal lip material over the years, from what I learned here.
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  #138  
Old 06-20-2012, 10:11 AM
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Re: GregRS's journey into seal territory

Thanks for the quick feedback. I hope to pick up the new seal today and I'll measure the thickness and also see if the dealer can confirm that it goes flush.

Anfd thanks for the P/N on the Viton O-Ring. I'll call today. The 27 I referred to is simply to outside diameter of o-ring. A 19 x 4 is 19 mm inside diameter + 2 x 4mm thickness = 27 mm.

FYI--I did check the breather tube and O-Rings on the throttle bottles. The breather tube was fine as were the o-rings. (I'll replace them anyway).

I'm also going to replace/reseal the timing gasket too since the motor is out. It's always had a nagging leak.

Steve
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  #139  
Old 06-20-2012, 10:34 AM
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Re: GregRS's journey into seal territory

I was just in the Clymer yesterday checking on other things in that area. Original seal on the early bikes was Teflon but "one of them" that has to be preformed. They can be tricky if you don't follow the procedure.You can't just put those in there and expect them to seal. We still have at least one of them on the later bikes at the "Hall effect sensor".

Them "not preformed" Teflon seals sure got the best of a few R bikes owners.

New type seals are still Teflon but preformed so less of a problem but still is a proper procedure as not to oil the lip etc....! Also, from what I found at my Hall sensor them seals may wear the shaft or rotating part as in cut a slight groove in the metal so careful cleaning/polishing and even some careful measurements of the lip/seal depth may be in order.
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  #140  
Old 06-20-2012, 03:31 PM
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Re: GregRS's journey into seal territory

Quote:
Originally Posted by pbegin@burton
them seals may wear the shaft or rotating part as in cut a slight groove in the metal so careful cleaning/polishing and even some careful measurements of the lip/seal depth may be in order.

Just like the L/H spacer and the dust seal at the front wheel eh Mr Begin It is a case of the soft part wearing out the hard part
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  #141  
Old 06-20-2012, 03:49 PM
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Re: GregRS's journey into seal territory

Quote:
Originally Posted by pbegin@burton
I was just in the Clymer yesterday checking on other things in that area. Original seal on the early bikes was Teflon but "one of them" that has to be preformed. They can be tricky if you don't follow the procedure.You can't just put those in there and expect them to seal. We still have at least one of them on the later bikes at the "Hall effect sensor".

Them "not preformed" Teflon seals sure got the best of a few R bikes owners.

New type seals are still Teflon but preformed so less of a problem but still is a proper procedure as not to oil the lip etc....! Also, from what I found at my Hall sensor them seals may wear the shaft or rotating part as in cut a slight groove in the metal so careful cleaning/polishing and even some careful measurements of the lip/seal depth may be in order.

I never found a Teflon seal anywhere on my '97 at first teardown and just about everything except the crank/rods/pistons and head were removed. As it had managed 35K without an oil leak, I put back 'standard' lip and tension spring seals.

The Teflon seal thing has somehow passed me by! I understand they are claimed to have advantages in the shaft wear department, where tension is always the biggest factor and the race bike boys use them. But K bikes have managed over a 100K without them, so I will see how my standard seals hold up.

I don't know exactly what they supply as oem parts now, but I think the story was originally 'standard' type seals, then somebody came up with arguments for the Teflon seals, then there were some leak problems. So it would not surprise me in the BMW iterative learning process at our expense if they went back to standard seals. It may not be all their fault, because if a motor has been running some miles on standard seals, there could be a small wear groove on the shaft. A standard seal could still work, but a Teflon seal may not as it relies on more surface contact and inherent stiffness of its pre-forming.
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  #142  
Old 06-20-2012, 03:55 PM
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Re: GregRS's journey into seal territory

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flying Kiwi
Just like the L/H spacer and the dust seal at the front wheel eh Mr Begin It is a case of the soft part wearing out the hard part

You....found you a nice cheap SS boat part that would make a very nice sleeve for the other side and match that new SS bushing.
On my bench....will take pics.

Off to look for a machinist and a tire installer.
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  #143  
Old 06-20-2012, 04:02 PM
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Re: GregRS's journey into seal territory

Quote:
Originally Posted by svineski
Thanks for the quick feedback. I hope to pick up the new seal today and I'll measure the thickness and also see if the dealer can confirm that it goes flush.

Anfd thanks for the P/N on the Viton O-Ring. I'll call today. The 27 I referred to is simply to outside diameter of o-ring. A 19 x 4 is 19 mm inside diameter + 2 x 4mm thickness = 27 mm.

FYI--I did check the breather tube and O-Rings on the throttle bottles. The breather tube was fine as were the o-rings. (I'll replace them anyway).

I'm also going to replace/reseal the timing gasket too since the motor is out. It's always had a nagging leak.

Steve

Put each throttle body on a glass plate with some blue dye and check the surfaces are true. Mine were slightly bowed either end at the fastening points. No good having new rings if the surfaces are not flat.
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  #144  
Old 06-22-2012, 10:11 AM
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Re: GregRS's journey into seal territory

Off to pick up parts today at a local BMW dealer plus some other misellaneous supplies (vaseline!).

Maryland Metric has the 19 x 4 Vitons, P/N is R398-20663, at $1.11 each with a $10 minuimum order--I'm picking up ten so I'll have some extras for others. They are not taht far form my my local BMW dealer.

Good idea on using die to check the throttle bodies.

I think most of today is assembling parts and cleaning. Hopefully I'll get to reassembly tomorrow.

Steve
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  #145  
Old 06-22-2012, 11:09 PM
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Re: GregRS's journey into seal territory

Picked up my parts today and was chagrined when the parts guy said these rear main seals are the "bread and butter" of their service department.

One the way out I stopped by the service desk to ask about the installation depth of the seal (the parts guy didn't know). The service manager went off to check with the tech and came back a couple minutes later to say it should go in dry and a half millimeter proud of the cases!

I wish I could read the factory service bulletin on this one.
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  #146  
Old 06-23-2012, 12:01 AM
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Re: GregRS's journey into seal territory

Hey, Steve - any chance I could get one of those O-rings from you? I'm headed down to Jessup tomorrow morning to get the rest of my parts ('02 K-RS) so McLean isn't far out of my way.

BTW - there's a tech day in Purcellville tomorrow. I don't expect to make it, given the state of Sonic right now. But I don't know if we're acquainted from any other BMWBMW events or not.
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Old 06-23-2012, 12:09 AM
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Re: GregRS's journey into seal territory

Absolutely. I'll PM the address. Just let me know when your coming.
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Old 06-23-2012, 05:29 AM
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Re: GregRS's journey into seal territory

Quote:
Originally Posted by svineski
Picked up my parts today and was chagrined when the parts guy said these rear main seals are the "bread and butter" of their service department.

One the way out I stopped by the service desk to ask about the installation depth of the seal (the parts guy didn't know). The service manager went off to check with the tech and came back a couple minutes later to say it should go in dry and a half millimeter proud of the cases!

I wish I could read the factory service bulletin on this one.
Thats where mine was positioned...Just enough to catch your fingernail.
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Old 06-23-2012, 07:03 PM
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Re: GregRS's journey into seal territory

FYI--the new seal I bought was identical to the old seal I put in back in 2007--same #'s engraved and same 10mm thickness.

I ended up removing the motor completely so I could clean it well and get a good look at the Timing Chain Cover (no leak there so I'm leaving it alone). There was a lot of dirt on the top of he motor--gravel, grit anf grime--and no good way to clean it in situ. I think some of the grime I was seeing was for a loose breather tube fitting. The breather tube is nice a pliable but oily--especially around the joints.

With the motor out and on my bike jack it was very easy driving the new seal in--no lying on the floor and reaching around the frame. Jacked all the way up the motor was a waist height while I sat on my shop stool. It went in just shy of flush with the cases.

Another big plus of removing the motor is the ease of lining up the clutch plates by slipping on the tranmission. I eyeballed it then used to pilot shaft plus a couple of headless bolts in the intermediate case to slide on the transmission on and off before torqing down the basket bolts. With the motor out it was a piece of cake sliding the transmission on and off.

Still a lot of work to do. Want to clean check the starter and throttle bodies, replace the fuel filter, etc. etc. I did put the transmission back on the motor hoping I can install the motor and trans with the alternator and starter on as a unit. We'll see how it works and I'll report back here.

Steve
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  #150  
Old 06-23-2012, 11:58 PM
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Re: GregRS's journey into seal territory

If you found lots of dirt on top of the engine, you may want to look behind the water pump cover, large recess there for the dirt to accumulate. And if it does accumulate there it may just hold enough moisture/road salt to corrode around the O-rings at the flanges. Sorry not posting them gory pics today.
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Old 06-24-2012, 11:34 PM
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Re: GregRS's journey into seal territory

Well the motor is clean and back in the bike with a new rear main seal and viton ring. FYI--it does fit with the tranny, alternator, starter reinstalled. (I did have the carbs installed but had to pull them off to get the throttle cable back on).

The hardest part of of getting the motor back in was manuevering the bike jack and motor around the jack stands that were holding up the frame. Still, it was surprisingly easy.

Still have to get the back end together. Time permitting I'll be riding again next weekend.
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Old 07-13-2012, 03:14 PM
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Re: GregRS's journey into seal territory

I did get the motor in a couple weekends ago. Rode it to work the first day and it ran fine, no leaks, but I became a little concerned about a nagging noise that I'd been hearing on the bike before I replace the rear seal.

Long story short--the final drive bearing was going. I suspected it when I changed the gear oil and further investigation confirmed it. The good news is that after pulling the engine to replace the main seal removing the final drive was easy and quick. My local shop also had all the parts needed in stock. When I went to pick up the parts I swung by the service desk with my cleaned and bearingless drive and inquired about them doing the installation of the new bearing and seal.

It was ready the next day!

I'm picking it up to today and I'll have it in the bike tomorrow in time for a Sedalia Saddle Sore 1000 on Tuesday!

Whoopeee!

Steve
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Old 07-14-2012, 06:26 AM
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Re: GregRS's journey into seal territory

Good find and result, but I hope they setup the preloads and re-shimmed?

If you look on their parts invoice and just see a bearing, seal, large O ring and an hours labor, then you may have the answer.

When you got the drive back, if you tried turning the output shaft by hand and it turned easily without feeling quite a bit of friction, then they did not check the bearing preload and reshim.
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Old 07-14-2012, 06:57 PM
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Re: GregRS's journey into seal territory

I picked up the final drive yesterday and put it in the bike today. The input shaft did turn by hand, but not easily, and even though I didn't see a line item for a new shim, they did have quite a few bucks in "shop supplies" and they did return my old shim.

Before I left the drive with the shop I talked to the tech (Steve) who was doing the work and it was clear he understood what needed to be done. Only time will tell if it was done correctly, but I have no reason to doubt it was.

While Steve was in there he did check and ended up replacing the pivot bearings. All-in-all I'm happy it's done, but even with my labor it was an expensive repair.

After the drive was in I did a 100 mile shakedown ride and so far everything seems fine--no leaks, no noise, no free play. There's a couple minor things I need to address unrelated to the drive but they are easy fixes--one radiator fan not running--probably forgot to plug it in, and the stop on my Aeroflow windscreen in the wrong position.

I'll pack the bike tomorrow and go for another little spin geared up. Tuesday AM I start a Saddle Sore 1000 to Sedalia and should arrive sometime Wednesday after Midnight!

Wish me luck!

Steve
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Old 07-14-2012, 07:20 PM
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Re: GregRS's journey into seal territory

Returned old shim is peace of mind they did the preload setup for the new bearing. It made sense to change the pivot bearings at the same time.

Just keep the oil level right, change it and you should be good on the drive for many miles.

I picked up a spare cheap on Fleabay so I could keep riding whilst I repaired the original. I expected the take off to need work, but so far it keeps going no probs and is still on the bike.

My rebuilt drive hangs like an ornament on my garage wall to remind me about Beemers!
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  #156  
Old 07-15-2012, 11:52 AM
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Re: GregRS's journey into seal territory

An interesting observation when I refilled the final drive oil. If you rotate the rear wheel in the forward direction, the oil level momentarily rises and then quickly returns to level. If if you rotate the wheel in the reverse direction, the level drops, but does not return, at least quickly, to the previous level. I suspect the reverse direction is pushing oil into some of the upper cavities inside the drive and it's just slow to drain back down.

I made sure I had the level up to the bottom threads on the fill hole, about a 1/2 quart of BMW 80/90.

Kontoboy

P.S. Thanks to everyone for all the help and insights with the seal/o-ring change and final drive.
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Old 07-16-2012, 04:56 PM
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Re: GregRS's journey into seal territory

Yes that is kind of normal but it is a matter of degree. You will have noticed on the top of the RD (at least on my older model) there is a black cap thingy. That is BMW's answer to venting pressure from the RD. The RD can work like a gear pump and produce quite a bit of pressure which is not good for the seals.

Take the cap off and inside there is a silly bit of foam, make sure it is clean. Sometimes people poke things in there and push the foam plug into the RD. For a while I stuck a piece of pvc hose on mine and led it up high under the seat. I thought that did a better venting job.
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Old 07-18-2012, 08:38 PM
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Re: GregRS's journey into seal territory

Thanks for the tip Vox! I always wondered what that black thing was for, and never realized you vould pull it off.

I'm in Sedalia now--arrived late last night/this morning and the bike ran flawlessly for the 1100 ride straight thru. When I'm back home I'll check that vent--not only do I want to see if it's clean I'm curious if the BMW tech checked it when he was working on my drive.

Thanks again

Konotoboy
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  #159  
Old 07-29-2012, 07:00 AM
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Re: GregRS's journey into seal territory

Hey all,

iAtlas, Scott, is having problems to unscrew the 2 screws holding the starter to the tranny.

Scott is new to the forum, I am putting his request here since it is liklely in the same territory. Is this the screws you are talking about Scott?



Tell us what the problem is in details if you can.

Thanks,
Jacques
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Old 07-29-2012, 05:02 PM
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Re: GregRS's journey into seal territory

When I did mine the starter wouldn't pull back. I left it in place till I dropped the trans. The starter has a rubber ring around it that seals it's mounting point from water and grit. The white grease had solidified and held it in place. It dropped out once I had free access to it. I removed and replaced the white grees on the re-installation.
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Old 01-29-2013, 04:25 PM
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Talking Re: GregRS's journey, and then my own

Hi Gents:
Normally, my grease monkey stuff is done on a 1944 B-25. VERY greasy. Wide range of problems - but I was warned before I jumped in. Didn't listen. Got the Mechanics Award..

So, I figger I can do a simple clutch job on my K Machine, especially after reading GregRS's account, and seeing all the pics.

What could possibly go wrong?

The drive shaft phasing was a new one, but it makes sense. The job is done, and the bike runs better, probably due to the thorough cleaning of the fuel system. Dis-engaged one of the throttle springs, and now the engine idles at about 1400 - I can live with that to get the smaller forces on the twisty grip. The high idle allows for a Harley-style pop-pop-bang when slowing down, as the fuel controller does not shut the fuel off completely.

I'm pretty sure the neighbors don't care for the extra noise.

Drilled the drain hole in the slave cyl housing. I was gonna do that when I read about it. I am watching for ANY oil under the machine, as I'm pretty sure I do not want to do this particular job again, at least not for what I am paying myself: $0. I'm cheap.

I did end up with a nifty hydraulic lift/Platform of Death, and some new tools. So, I've got that going for me..

A couple of additions to the Ol' Clutch Equation from this rookie: my '98 K has 65000mi on it, and the old disc (original as far as I know) measured the same as the used one I got from Beemer Boneyard, with 3000mi on it. The pressure plate looked NEW, and so did the flywheel. I'm keepin' those in my spare shelf. I'm gonna see if there is some new-tech method of getting the oil out of the old disc so I would basically have a replacement on hand - that oil removal might be an epic fail. Any tips are welcome.

Inside the clutch housing was really messy, and I've seen some messy places (B-25). I think this particular problem was purchased with the bike about 4 years ago, judging from the mess. I suspect adding a bit of AMSOIL lube to top off the tranny accelerated the process.

Filled the trans & FD w/AMSOIL on re-assembly - the normal "box o rocks" sound is not there, tho it's not summer yet either.

I used Dot 5 fluid in the new clutch setup, with a new slave cylinder. I did a thorough flush with 90% isopropyl alchohol. I could find no one else who did this fluid change, but since the root cause of the disc failure is the dang brake fluid, why not eliminate the CAUSE?? At any rate, so far so good. Clutch action is normal.

Dot 5 cannot be used in the brake system; 5.1 maybe.

Changed the FD pivot bearings - might as well PLAN to do this when you change a clutch. Also put on new rubber at the trans/swingarm and at the swingarm/FD pivot while the bike was all over the shop. And I do mean all over...looked like a motorcycle bomb went off next to a tool bomb, centered on The Platform of Death. Ugh.

Changed the breather hose while I had the fuel system off (old one was hard & brittle), and added the quick-connects at the tank outlets. Might add a connection of the breather to the exh system collector (with a check valve, of course) so that gunk doesn't have to go thru the engine.

Cleaned the starter, but it didn't really need it.

Ordered parts from MAX BMW in North Hampton, NH - dealt with Rusty. Good fella. I had their website open to the exploded views of the bike while on the phone, which made getting the right parts ALMOST idiot proof....but idiots are SO clever.

Since the Pirate's Lair no longer sells the SS bolt kits (Arrrrrrrrr), I scored a less comprehensive one on Ebay, so the missing fasteners are all now replaced. Sorry, Jerry - I wanted to give you some $$$.

Sure is great to have this machine working again - it went out of service last May, and the airshow/spraying season kept me away from fixing the dang thing - but I did get all the parts on hand thru the summer....while staring at the bike in the corner of the hangar. That part was tough.

If I think of anything else, I'll post later. Thanks to GregRS for posting his pictures, and process, and to those who added their 2 cents while Greg was doing his exploded bike-bomb procedure.

These K Machines are really something, aren't they?

Carry on!
Mark
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  #162  
Old 01-29-2013, 04:58 PM
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Re: GregRS's journey into seal territory

I'm happy to see my posting is still being of use to others. Don't know when this received sticky status, but again hopefully lots more people will get some use out of it.

As for bike bombs,, I had that, but it wasn't contained to a garage/hanger. It over took the back yard, and had to be quarreled back up every night when I was done.

Even got all the extra vitron seals giving away to various pm'ers. Down to one left and that ones staying squirreled away and hopefully I'll never need it.
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Old 01-30-2013, 07:57 AM
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Re: GregRS's journey into seal territory

Greg, I have checked out this sticky numerous times to get psyched up for this job. Great thread, as are all the 'rear main seal' threads. My bike is in many pieces as we speak, but I won't be done for quite a while. Taking my time and learning the bike. All good so far.

George
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  #164  
Old 02-09-2013, 08:26 PM
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Re: GregRS's journey into seal territory

Greg, kudos to you !! I've read ,re-read.....trying to get every detail down. Also,thanks to ALL that contribute to this site!! great source of info here,and pretty damn entertaining at times. I'm just getting started with "O"ring/seals adventure! F/D,swing arm,cross member came out O'tay! pulled slave cyl. and gear oil in cyl.cavity,hmmm..might as well replace them all while in there. Stay tuned...
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  #165  
Old 02-10-2013, 10:08 AM
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Re: GregRS's journey into seal territory

Quote:
Originally Posted by chris d holton
Greg, kudos to you !! I've read ,re-read.....trying to get every detail down. Also,thanks to ALL that contribute to this site!! great source of info here,and pretty damn entertaining at times. I'm just getting started with "O"ring/seals adventure! F/D,swing arm,cross member came out O'tay! pulled slave cyl. and gear oil in cyl.cavity,hmmm..might as well replace them all while in there. Stay tuned...

Can you take some pics of the output seals before you remove them? The one at the slave and the main one.I am kind of curious about something, as to the depth of some OEMs.

Slave cylinder can be opened and checked. Replaced mine anyway after I found a tiny bit oil gear oil in the cavity. But later opened it and absolutely no signs of wear or piston seal degradation.

Cheaper at Beemer Boneyard the slave, add a 10% discount for ADV members.You may also want some of their Guard Dog Moly, was playing with that yesterday looks even stickier than Honda Moly 60.
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Old 02-10-2013, 01:34 PM
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Re: GregRS's journey into seal territory

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Originally Posted by pbegin@burton
Can you take some pics of the output seals before you remove them? The one at the slave and the main one.I am kind of curious about something, as to the depth of some OEMs.

Slave cylinder can be opened and checked. Replaced mine anyway after I found a tiny bit oil gear oil in the cavity. But later opened it and absolutely no signs of wear or piston seal degradation.

Cheaper at Beemer Boneyard the slave, add a 10% discount for ADV members.You may also want some of their Guard Dog Moly, was playing with that yesterday looks even stickier than Honda Moly 60.

I don't have any pictures, but my slave seal was set at 36mm deep from the face of the case, and the main seal was set at 5mm deep. I hope this helps.

George
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  #167  
Old 02-10-2013, 02:24 PM
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Re: GregRS's journey into seal territory

My rear main seal of the crankshaft was flush. And all indicators point to it being original. But, if you look at the surface that the seal rides on behind the clutch basket main piece you see you have limited space to ride on. There is room for different placement of the seal but mainly in the flush direction. Clymer talkes about being flush. The instructions for making the seal driver for Al (paughco) asked that it be designed so the seal would be recessed. I don't remember exactly but it was about .050". 5mm or .200" is a lot and I would observe where it rides on the sealed surface and make judgements from there.
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  #168  
Old 02-10-2013, 03:03 PM
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Re: GregRS's journey into seal territory

Quote:
Originally Posted by longride
I don't have any pictures, but my slave seal was set at 36mm deep from the face of the case, and the main seal was set at 5mm deep. I hope this helps.

George

It is just that looking at other pics the tranny output seems to be at different depths even from OEM. There is a lube hole on that shaft and pushing the seal back exactly where it was and then it may leak again just like mine. I found that seal from the marks on the shaft riding waaay to close from the lube hole. Had to open my tranny to sort that out.My pic might just be here, don't remember.

Nothing I haven't mentioned on this thread if I recall. Mounted flush the tranny output, well flush....there is a little bevel there you may want to consider lining the seal to,so pushed in a little from flush to the case. Good there, not close from the lube hole....won't leak or hit the wear groove if such.

I remember that the OP here got caught with his new tranny output seal leaking again. Good thing he somewhat inadvertently bench tested his installation.

Looks like quite a few LT guys had problems with the tranny output seal. Dealer fixed only to be found leaking shortly thereafter.Reinstalled at the same depth according to the BMW manual....too close from the lube hole or possible wear groove and there you go......leaks again.

The slave well, there is an internal "boss" there, easy to line the seal with that. Lots of room to ride on that one.

30,000 miles....no leaks, I should be fine for a while longer yet.
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  #169  
Old 02-10-2013, 03:24 PM
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Re: GregRS's journey into seal territory

Tranny seal, yes, work around that lube hole inside! I was only talking about the engine case rear seal.
My tranny seal was .029" deep when it came out and the dealer put a new one in at a little less than that.
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Old 02-10-2013, 05:12 PM
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Re: GregRS's journey into seal territory

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beech
Tranny seal, yes, work around that lube hole inside! I was only talking about the engine case rear seal.
My tranny seal was .029" deep when it came out and the dealer put a new one in at a little less than that.

Now that's the kind of specs I like. Measured at the third decimal.Hard to do in mm. Just for the kick had to go look at mine: 0.020" I think I am fine.

There is a little bevel to remove the sharp edge of the case and facilitate seal installation. Worth looking at those parts in case of nicks, otherwise the seals may not slide in easy.

Straight flush to the case then work it in if you wish to see the bevel.But I think it should do that on its own, the metal part is a little proud of the rubber.I'll have another look. I trust my eyes more than measuring tools in such confined areas altough it would be easy to put a shim under the seal setter. Cover from an Ice Cream container cut into a shim/washer???....no need for that really.

Mounted flush all of them,rear main included, no need to measure,none of them "too" special tools, less fiddling, more time then...on to other things.

I should clean Molly....

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Old 02-13-2013, 09:57 PM
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Re: GregRS's journey into seal territory

pics. to come! clutch looks good.Mic. clutch plate at 6mm. Not contaminated
Nice...
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  #172  
Old 04-30-2013, 11:12 PM
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Re: GregRS's journey into seal territory

Quick update--10 months and 6K miles after replacing my main seal and adding the viton oil ring there are no problems to report on my '99 K1200RS. I'm in the process of restoring an '89 K75 w. 23 K on it--bike sat outside 10 years uncovered and unused. I just replaced the real seal in that bike, an it uses the same viton oil ring as the 1200.
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  #173  
Old 05-01-2013, 11:17 AM
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Re: GregRS's journey into seal territory

Well, I guess I can update my previous post too:

3 months and 2000mi along - no troubles with leakage, and the Dot 5 fluid I put in (the clutch system ONLY) is working out great too. Checked in altitudes from 600'MSL up to 7500MSL; temps from 25F to 85F; speeds from 0 to HOLY CRAP! - no issues. I had read that the Dot 5 might have an altitude issue, but I didn't see it.



Carry on!
Mark
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  #174  
Old 05-01-2013, 12:46 PM
voxmagna voxmagna is offline
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Re: GregRS's journey into seal territory

http://www2.opieoils.co.uk/pdfs/tech...-Explained.pdf

F1 guys use silicone based fluids, but they rebuild their cars before each race and their cars are not over 10 years old.
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  #175  
Old 05-09-2013, 12:31 AM
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Re: GregRS's journey into seal territory

Awesome post.

I am pretty sure the seal on my slave valve is leaking. Unfortunately I don't have the resources or technical knowledge to fix it myself. The BMW dealership told me that they would have to remove my transmission and the total cost to fix everything (parts and labor hours) would be $1500 dollars!!! Is this a reasonable price?

I appologize if this is the wrong board to post my question. Maybe a better question is: What is the cost difference between doing it yourself vs taking it to the dealership?
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  #176  
Old 05-09-2013, 08:19 AM
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Re: GregRS's journey into seal territory

Quote:
Originally Posted by TherionKRS
Awesome post.

I am pretty sure the seal on my slave valve is leaking. Unfortunately I don't have the resources or technical knowledge to fix it myself. The BMW dealership told me that they would have to remove my transmission and the total cost to fix everything (parts and labor hours) would be $1500 dollars!!! Is this a reasonable price?

I appologize if this is the wrong board to post my question. Maybe a better question is: What is the cost difference between doing it yourself vs taking it to the dealership?

The majority of the $1500 would be for labor. If it is just a clutch slave leaking, you can fixt that for under $100 if you have tools, patience, and a repair manual. It's a pretty involved job, but not impossible. You have to assess your own skill and how much time you have to do the fix. Personally, I would never tkae my bike to the dealership, but your mileage may vary.

George
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  #177  
Old 05-09-2013, 08:20 AM
voxmagna voxmagna is offline
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Re: GregRS's journey into seal territory

Doing it yourself will be he cheapest option. Everybody has different levels of skills and knowledge so I do not know where you put yourself along the line. Knowledge can be learned but it takes time. These jobs are rarely 'plug & play'. If you are not doing your own bike servicing, including valve clearances, then I would kindly suggest you may be on the starting grid. Without some technical skills and knowledge, there is a risk of doing things wrong or causing damage.

You said the slave is leaking? You must already start thinking things through because a leaking slave means the clutch needs a good look at (or may be worn), with possible parts to buy , the clutch O ring and output shaft seals might as well be changed once the frame is lifted. The problem with the dealerships is these are (relatively) low cost parts but work and long time high labor costs make up at least 3/4 of the total cost. That is why dealers love this kind of work!

When you do it yourself (and take the risks!), your labor is your free time - but you still need to get/borrow/make some special tools and have good workshop facilites to do the work. This is not the kind of job to do in the street, although I do most of my work in my driveway under a 3m X3m gazebo!

Another option is to get some local recommends from Beemer owners that have used independent non-BMW dealerships. Sometimes BMW trained techs have moved on to run their own shops or work for others.
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  #178  
Old 05-09-2013, 10:54 AM
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Re: GregRS's journey into seal territory

"Maybe a better question is: What is the cost difference between doing it yourself vs taking it to the dealership?"

Well, the upside for me is that I had an excuse to buy more tools! Sounds like you are less than excited about doing it yourself, so the dealer is the end game. $1500 is not a bad price, but my experience led to other stuff being fixed at the same time, which will run the parts bill up a bit, but not so much on the labor.

BTW the 'estimate' for my bike was $2000. In checking the parts they planned to use, I see they didn't really have a grasp on that facet.

I suspect my total bill was about $900, but I ended up with some new tools, including a hydraulic 'Platform of Death' ($400). The bike sure performs better now - maybe due to my scrubbing the throttle bodies thoroughly? Replacing the gnarly breather tube that connects to the throttle bodies? Dunno, but it does run better.

Where are you? Maybe an experienced wrench twister is nearby, and can mentor you thru the process? I am in central Texas.

Carry on!
Mark
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  #179  
Old 05-09-2013, 11:24 AM
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Re: GregRS's journey into seal territory

Quote:
Originally Posted by voxmagna
http://www2.opieoils.co.uk/pdfs/tech...-Explained.pdf

F1 guys use silicone based fluids, but they rebuild their cars before each race and their cars are not over 10 years old.

Not sure what point you are trying to get across here?

I would suggest that the clutch contamination failure is a secondary problem, caused by the clutch fluid (brake fluid) getting on the trans seal via a bad seal in the clutch slave cyl, causing the trans seal to 'let go', allowing trans oil to get onto the clutch disc.

Seems to me that in trying to stop the secondary failure, a change in fluid is the answer. As far as I know, there are 2 alternatives:

Mineral fluid will be compatable with the trans seal, so no secondary failure would occur. This would require changing all the seals in the clutch system. This is not so easy.

BTW looked at a friend's Triumph (or was it the KTM?) Adventure Bike recently - that bike uses mineral oil in the clutch system, for probably the same reason (secondary failure) we could, or should.

Changing to silicon fluid would require only a thorough flush of the clutch system, and a change to the different fluid; all O rings are compatible. Easy. The secondary failure is also eliminated through this method.

No one cold tell me if this fluid would or would not work, but I could not think of a reason it couldn't, or wouldn't. I realize there might be issues with a BRAKE system, but the clutch system on our bikes is not subject to the heat and pressures a brake system could see.

So, I tried it; it is working so far. If I need to change the fluid every so often, no worries.

One fact is certain in my particular case: a clutch slave cyl leak won't force me into a clutch disc replacement operation again!

Carry on!
Mark
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  #180  
Old 05-09-2013, 08:51 PM
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Re: GregRS's journey into seal territory

Quote:
Originally Posted by voxmagna
Doing it yourself will be he cheapest option. Everybody has different levels of skills and knowledge so I do not know where you put yourself along the line. Knowledge can be learned but it takes time. These jobs are rarely 'plug & play'. If you are not doing your own bike servicing, including valve clearances, then I would kindly suggest you may be on the starting grid. Without some technical skills and knowledge, there is a risk of doing things wrong or causing damage.

You said the slave is leaking? You must already start thinking things through because a leaking slave means the clutch needs a good look at (or may be worn), with possible parts to buy , the clutch O ring and output shaft seals might as well be changed once the frame is lifted. The problem with the dealerships is these are (relatively) low cost parts but work and long time high labor costs make up at least 3/4 of the total cost. That is why dealers love this kind of work!

When you do it yourself (and take the risks!), your labor is your free time - but you still need to get/borrow/make some special tools and have good workshop facilites to do the work. This is not the kind of job to do in the street, although I do most of my work in my driveway under a 3m X3m gazebo!

Another option is to get some local recommends from Beemer owners that have used independent non-BMW dealerships. Sometimes BMW trained techs have moved on to run their own shops or work for others.

I live in Wisconsin. Can you recommend any independent mechanics? Or know if anyone has compiled a database of guys that do BMW work independently?
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