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"KRS/GT" Technical Q&A K1200RS/GT Technical Questions/Answers

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  #1  
Old 03-09-2018, 06:33 PM
Rob955i Rob955i is offline
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Clutch Replacement

Hi all,

Im replacing the clutch in my 02 K12 RS with all new components, everything new. Im just not sure how the balancing procedure goes now when starting from scratch ? The Clymers manual doesnt seem to be to clear on that, at least not enough for this brain pan. Sorry if its a beyond stupid question.
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  #2  
Old 03-09-2018, 07:08 PM
paulmogs paulmogs is offline
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Re: Clutch Replacement

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xpQyJMV6UE
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  #3  
Old 03-09-2018, 07:52 PM
Rob955i Rob955i is offline
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Re: Clutch Replacement

No drinkin here, to much marijuana maybe.....or definitely. Low and behold my new stuff is marked ! Didnt see it, the effects of marijuana maybe.....or definitley. Thank you !
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  #4  
Old 03-09-2018, 08:13 PM
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Re: Clutch Replacement

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob955i
Hi all,

Im replacing the clutch in my 02 K12 RS with all new components, everything new. Im just not sure how the balancing procedure goes now when starting from scratch ? The Clymers manual doesnt seem to be to clear on that, at least not enough for this brain pan. Sorry if its a beyond stupid question.

The info is there in CLYMER (chapter 5) but could be more clear.

1) In REMOVAL section, they warn you to mark 3 parts so that you can keep factory alignment - this is assuming one was to reuse all 3 old parts (not your case).

2) In INSTALL section , spread over sub-section 11.d AND sub-section 13.a , they refer to 120 degrees marks apart for these 3 parts. CLYMER presentation could be better on this... I agree, BUT I have always double-checked all procedures from CLYMER using the original BMW shop manual (not as user-friendly, but a good double check).

THE BOTTON LINE / SUMMARY is this:
1) When NEW, each of the 3 parts have 1 paint mark / spot on the side from factory / supplier:
- the clutch housing (rear most)
- the Pressure plate (next rear most not counting the diaphragm spring)
- the clutch cover (last - see attached photo)

2) This paint mark on each of these parts above indicated the Heavy spot for each particular part (they can never be made to be 100% balanced)

3) Since balancing the whole assy is a complex task that would requires special machines that you OR the dealer do not have, the procedure from CLYMER and BMW shop manual is to assemble each of these together (as an assy) so that the paint marks are 120 degree apart.

Hence at 120 deg apart, you reduce the risk to add up any imbalance from 3 imperfect part (you basically even out the heavy spot as close as possible).

Because the relationship between pressure-plate and housing cover is 3 pins and 6 bolts, it is very easy to split the difference in 3 sections (120 apart)

IMPORTANT NOTES:
1) in the above logic, you will understand that we do not look for any marks OR possible imbalance from 2 other parts: the friction-plate AND the diaphragm-spring as these are not attached to fix assy of the 3 other parts (they rotate freely).

2) IF you did buy ONLY 2 of these 3 parts above, you may have a problem as the paint marks from factory will probably NOT be visible on the used part. Try to inspect / clean as much as possible with an easy solvent so as not to remove any old paint mark.


CAREFUL about using any video on the R1150 / R1100 boxer clutch as these do not have the same type of clutch-housing like the K1200RS/GT "brick-engine". Instead, they have a dented wheel clutch housing that serves as large starter gear.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg K1200RS Housing-Cover_PAINT-MARKS (MAX-BMW).jpg (49.4 KB, 19 views)
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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http://www.i-bmw.com/classifieds/sho...500&ppuser=144
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Old 03-09-2018, 08:26 PM
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Re: Clutch Replacement

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob955i
Hi all,

Im replacing the clutch in my 02 K12 RS with all new components, everything new. Im just not sure how the balancing procedure goes now when starting from scratch ? The Clymers manual doesnt seem to be to clear on that, at least not enough for this brain pan. Sorry if its a beyond stupid question.

OH... one more important details that has caused many headaches on the clutch job here on forums:

- Some after market "cheap / bad quality" clutch friction plate have been sold mainly on EBAY from China. These were too thick and would cause issue after installation. You only find out after installing transmission and clutch slave.

- Measure your clutch friction-plate at 5 spots all around: thickness should be equal at 5 spots and SHOULD NOT be above 6.1 mm. Std max / new spec is normally closer to 6 mm but 5.9 to 6.1 is OK.

ANYTHING ABOVE 6.1 mm will cause problem: more "meat" is not better in this case ;-)

If you did buy all new parts from a reputable BMW dealer, I doubt yo will ever see above problem.
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K1200RS (2002 IceBlue/Red - 94,000 miles)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Parts for K1200RS for sale here:
http://www.i-bmw.com/classifieds/sho...500&ppuser=144
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  #6  
Old 03-09-2018, 08:45 PM
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Re: Clutch Replacement

Clutch replacement or friction disk only?

Big difference.If friction disk only make sure the metal plates are flat.Not dished in a la typical BMW wear for such plates.

There is a spec bandied about as to how much dishing can be acceptable.Certainly not an official BMW spec.More like a cheapo owner spec.

Expensive listening to that when thousand of kms down the road that dishing causes the friction disk to warp as you use the clutch.And then the splines on both the disk and transmission shaft wear out.

Yeah... Some shifting problems?

Wanna see some pointy clutch splines and worn transmission splines?
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Old 03-09-2018, 10:12 PM
Rob955i Rob955i is offline
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Re: Clutch Replacement

Everything is new. Everything is from Max except friction plate which came from BBY.. I e eventually found the part in the Clymers where it mentioned about installing new parts.So each of the 3. plates should be rotated. 120. Degrees apart? Meaning the .marks?
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Old 03-09-2018, 10:16 PM
Rob955i Rob955i is offline
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Re: Clutch Replacement

I'll also get a measurement on that friction plate.
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Old 03-09-2018, 10:51 PM
Lowndes Lowndes is offline
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Re: Clutch Replacement

Rob,

While you're in there, Don't forget to:

1) Replace "THE O-ring" with a Viton version.

2) Drill a weep hole in the slave cyl housing on the back side of the tranny.

3) Replace the slave cyl with a NEW one - BBY has them. The piston has a bearing built in that is the throw-out bearing and it is ALWAYS turning when the engine is running. When (not if) it fails the slave cyl will pump DOT4 down the clutch rod directly to the clutch plate and at the same time destroy the tranny input shaft rear seal and allow tranny lube to go to the clutch, too. See #2 above.

If any of this doesn't happen, the chances are higher you'll be doing this same exercise again.
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Old 03-09-2018, 11:02 PM
Rob955i Rob955i is offline
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Re: Clutch Replacement

I have a new slave cylinder from BBY and I have all new seal for the transmission, new main seal and the viton o-ring. I saw how to drill the weep hole, hoping it will be a little easier with the tranny out. The one thing I dont have new is the clutch housing !!!
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  #11  
Old 03-09-2018, 11:10 PM
Rob955i Rob955i is offline
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Re: Clutch Replacement

Quote:
Originally Posted by sailor
The info is there in CLYMER (chapter 5) but could be more clear.

1) In REMOVAL section, they warn you to mark 3 parts so that you can keep factory alignment - this is assuming one was to reuse all 3 old parts (not your case).

2) In INSTALL section , spread over sub-section 11.d AND sub-section 13.a , they refer to 120 degrees marks apart for these 3 parts. CLYMER presentation could be better on this... I agree, BUT I have always double-checked all procedures from CLYMER using the original BMW shop manual (not as user-friendly, but a good double check).

THE BOTTON LINE / SUMMARY is this:
1) When NEW, each of the 3 parts have 1 paint mark / spot on the side from factory / supplier:
- the clutch housing (rear most)
- the Pressure plate (next rear most not counting the diaphragm spring)
- the clutch cover (last - see attached photo)

2) This paint mark on each of these parts above indicated the Heavy spot for each particular part (they can never be made to be 100% balanced)

3) Since balancing the whole assy is a complex task that would requires special machines that you OR the dealer do not have, the procedure from CLYMER and BMW shop manual is to assemble each of these together (as an assy) so that the paint marks are 120 degree apart.

Hence at 120 deg apart, you reduce the risk to add up any imbalance from 3 imperfect part (you basically even out the heavy spot as close as possible).

Because the relationship between pressure-plate and housing cover is 3 pins and 6 bolts, it is very easy to split the difference in 3 sections (120 apart)

IMPORTANT NOTES:
1) in the above logic, you will understand that we do not look for any marks OR possible imbalance from 2 other parts: the friction-plate AND the diaphragm-spring as these are not attached to fix assy of the 3 other parts (they rotate freely).

2) IF you did buy ONLY 2 of these 3 parts above, you may have a problem as the paint marks from factory will probably NOT be visible on the used part. Try to inspect / clean as much as possible with an easy solvent so as not to remove any old paint mark.


CAREFUL about using any video on the R1150 / R1100 boxer clutch as these do not have the same type of clutch-housing like the K1200RS/GT "brick-engine". Instead, they have a dented wheel clutch housing that serves as large starter gear.

I bought a Siebenbrock non oil proof from BBY, the measurement I took around it all read 6.14-6.15 mm's. On another note I did not buy a new clutch housing, at this point I have to assume that any paint mark on there is long gone, now im not sure what to do.
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  #12  
Old 03-10-2018, 07:39 AM
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Re: Clutch Replacement

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob955i
I have a new slave cylinder from BBY and I have all new seal for the transmission, new main seal and the viton o-ring. I saw how to drill the weep hole, hoping it will be a little easier with the tranny out. The one thing I dont have new is the clutch housing !!!

Unless there is catastrophic internal damage, there is no need for a new Clutch-Housing. HOWEVER, it makes balancing a whole lot easier when you have bought new Pressure-Plate and cover. You get brand new paint marks on everything...

In a case such as yours, with 2 out 3 new parts of the balanced assy, there are a few options.
Choose the best you can make out of the situation:
(1) As specified in CLYMER removal section, BEFORE you split the clutch assy ( 6 bolts), make a paint marks at given spot when you can touch all 3 parts of the assy (no need to paint friction plate). Clean this spot delicately before in case there is already an old paint mark AND use another color than white (like Yellow or Red).

Once the assy is split, if you cannot see the old paint mark on the old clutch-housing, you might be able to see some "old" dirty white paint mark on the other 2 parts. From these 2 old marks on Pressure-plate and Cover, you can deduct the 3rd old paint mark on the clutch housing.


(2) Assuming above option did not work (could not find any old paint marks), install the 2 new part 120 degree apart (pressure plate and cover), and use whatever position for the back housing cover.

This option is not ideal, but you are 66.6 % (2/3) certain of having a balanced unit ;-)
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K1200RS (2002 IceBlue/Red - 94,000 miles)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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http://www.i-bmw.com/classifieds/sho...500&ppuser=144
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Old 03-10-2018, 07:41 AM
Lowndes Lowndes is offline
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Re: Clutch Replacement

"I bought a Siebenbrock non oil proof from BBY..."

Rob,

I put that same Siebenrock clutch disc in my R11S with excellent results a year ago. Then that same disc in my K12RS last month. Also excellent results. But from what Sailor said it looks like the thickness is just above limits. I did not know about the thickness limits and just used it, never miked it. It is working very well in my brick, too.

Mike at BBY told me they were out of these discs back in Jan this year and could not find a source and didn't know when/if they would have more. I bought it from an independent parts place in Germany, Oliver Martschin Motorradteilehandel, took about 2 weeks to get here, same price with conversion and shipping.

If you are using an AGM battery like an Odyssey PC680 or Westco, you might also replace that OEM voltage regulator with a 14.5V from EME http://www.euromotoelectrics.com/
Part No. "BOALT-Reg365", $45.50 delivered. Simple plug and play, 5 screws and new brushes, too. The AGM battery needs a higher voltage to fully charge and the OEM reg only gets it to about 80%. And the Motorad ECU much prefers a fully charged battery. More info on AGM here: http://www.batteryminders.com/agm-battery-info/

Everyone told me to NOT replace the RMS if it is OK. I had the newer type seal on hand but decided to leave the OEM in place and so far it's good.

If you can find any traces of the marking paint on the clutch parts, or if you go with new or used parts, RE-mark them with a center punch or the corner of a file. DOT4 and oil will wash any paint off. AMHIK. I was able to determine by very close inspection of the mating surfaces and deposits how my clutch housing was assembled.
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Old 03-10-2018, 08:17 AM
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Re: Clutch Replacement

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lowndes
"I bought a Siebenbrock non oil proof from BBY..."

Rob,

I put that same Siebenrock clutch disc in my R11S with excellent results a year ago. Then that same disc in my K12RS last month. Also excellent results. But from what Sailor said it looks like the thickness is just above limits. I did not know about the thickness limits and just used it, never miked it. It is working very well in my brick, too.
...
.....

I have measured 2 new SieBenrock friction plates - these were close to 6.1. Many on the K1200LT forums have used these, so I doubt you will have a problem at 6.15.

I was being conservative at the 6.1 limits as I know for a fact that as you get closer to 6.2 you are approaching the real limits. The limit will vary for each bike as it also depends on tolerances / thickness of all other parts:
- pressure plate (thickness given acceptable factory tolerances in machining)
- clutch cover plate (thickness given acceptable factory tolerances in machining)
- how old/weak is the diaphragm spring


All the above (combined with friction plate) will affect how compressed / curved the diaphragm spring is once the assy is bolted together. Finally, this will affect how far the push-rod sticks out in the slave opening.
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Old 03-10-2018, 08:58 AM
Rob955i Rob955i is offline
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Re: Clutch Replacement

Lowndes,

At this point in time im not using an AGM battery, im not 100% sold on them because I dont think they hold up in the cold weather very well. Would like to cause they do shave some weight off lol, if for that reason only. Before I had put the bike to sleep for the winter I had done somewhat of a charging diagnostic check on it, basically just took my multimeter and checked what the numbers were at idle and I was seeing 14.5V . I looked at the EME site I didnt see the Boalt-365, there were a few others from Boalt for the K bikes.

I had dont a similar upgrade on my Triumph Daytona 955, not by choice by the way, replaced the shunt type R/R with a mosfet type. I noticed on the site they had one for sale, but looks completely different then what was available for the BMW's.

I must have bought one of the last Siebenbrocks from BBY if he ran out of stock in Jan.,purchased mine in Dec..
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Old 03-10-2018, 09:14 AM
Rob955i Rob955i is offline
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Re: Clutch Replacement

Quote:
Originally Posted by sailor
Unless there is catastrophic internal damage, there is no need for a new Clutch-Housing. HOWEVER, it makes balancing a whole lot easier when you have bought new Pressure-Plate and cover. You get brand new paint marks on everything...

In a case such as yours, with 2 out 3 new parts of the balanced assy, there are a few options.
Choose the best you can make out of the situation:
(1) As specified in CLYMER removal section, BEFORE you split the clutch assy ( 6 bolts), make a paint marks at given spot when you can touch all 3 parts of the assy (no need to paint friction plate). Clean this spot delicately before in case there is already an old paint mark AND use another color than white (like Yellow or Red).

Once the assy is split, if you cannot see the old paint mark on the old clutch-housing, you might be able to see some "old" dirty white paint mark on the other 2 parts. From these 2 old marks on Pressure-plate and Cover, you can deduct the 3rd old paint mark on the clutch housing.




(2) Assuming above option did not work (could not find any old paint marks), install the 2 new part 120 degree apart (pressure plate and cover), and use whatever position for the back housing cover.

This option is not ideal, but you are 66.6 % (2/3) certain of having a balanced unit ;-)


There wasnt any damage at all except the reason im replacing in the first place is im replacing the main and o-ring. I thought while im in there im not gonna mess around im just gonna replace the clutch along with the transmission seals. Im really hoping the paint mark or some trace of it is still on the housing cover. That 66.6%, which take the decimal out and you have 666 does not sit well with me .

There is no way a machine shop could balance all 3 parts together? Or find the heavy spot on the housing for that matter? Im gonna mark everything up like you and the Clymers say's to and just hope for the best.
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Old 03-10-2018, 09:20 AM
Rob955i Rob955i is offline
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Re: Clutch Replacement

Also I see what your saying Sailor, if the old marks are still on the other 2 parts then the mark on the clutch housing should be 120 degrees opposite.
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Old 03-10-2018, 10:18 AM
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Re: Clutch Replacement

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob955i
...
.....

There is no way a machine shop could balance all 3 parts together? Or find the heavy spot on the housing for that matter? Im gonna mark everything up like you and the Clymers say's to and just hope for the best.

OF COURSE, this is the 3rd option that I did not mention. There are some expert in many states / countries that will balance car clutch, so they could do the same for our clutch.

Above is assuming they want to look at it ...AND... also assuming they could rig this in their apparatus (given the specific diameter / size of the splines hole in the clutch-housing). These are the main reasons I did not offer this 3rd option earlier.

Not an easy task to find a reputable shop that will not make matter worse. You have no way to prove what they did is correct - hence the reputation / experience is VERY important.

HOWEVER, if they did incorrect, you would potentially have more engine / drive-train vibration after rebuild. Problem would / should be worst at higher RPM in such case of large imbalance.
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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Old 03-10-2018, 12:41 PM
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Re: Clutch Replacement

I thought the same thing, finding a reputable place might be impossible, especially around these parts. As soon as you tell them its for a motorcycle its a big no no, wont want anything to do with it. There is so many what if's, but let me see if it even comes to that, hoping to get to it sometime today, what I need to do is 86 my cell phone that way people will stop bothering me for this and that lol!
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Old 03-11-2018, 10:03 PM
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Re: Clutch Replacement

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob955i
Everything is new. Everything is from Max except friction plate which came from BBY.. I e eventually found the part in the Clymers where it mentioned about installing new parts.So each of the 3. plates should be rotated. 120. Degrees apart? Meaning the .marks?

Max? Too expensive nowadays for this Canadian.Much cheaper was importing Sachs OEM parts from Ebay Germany.Seller ttMoto.de?

Tomas at ttMoto.de? Another K-Bike rider.
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Old 03-11-2018, 10:18 PM
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Re: Clutch Replacement

Paint marks? If everything else is new all you need is the big creamy paint mark on the clutch carrier.Hard to miss that one?And hard to remove? So one...then two/three if the new parts are marked from the factory as they should be.

Slave cylinder? I replaced mine at 40,000 kms.Shouldn't have it looked like new but the transmission seal was just starting to leak and the gear oil hadn't touched the slave seal yet.Replacement also looked like new at 160,000 kms.40,000 kms later? No worries.
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Old 03-11-2018, 11:17 PM
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Re: Clutch Replacement

[quote=pbegin@burton]Max? Too expensive nowadays for this Canadian.Much cheaper was importing Sachs OEM parts from Ebay Germany.Seller ttMoto.de?

Tomas at ttMoto.de? Another K-Bike rider.[/QUOTE

Now he tells me ! I still have a few more items I need. I'll give him a try. I replaced the slave seal and set it in about a MM too effing deep. This is after I marked the seal driver/socket I used to get the right depth !! So I'm gonna replace it again
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Old 03-11-2018, 11:21 PM
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Re: Clutch Replacement

I'm praying that mark is on there, wasn't able to get to it this weekend, to much b.s. go in on around me, wasted damn weekend
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Old 03-12-2018, 11:22 AM
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Re: Clutch Replacement

[quote=Rob955i]
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Originally Posted by pbegin@burton
Max? Too expensive nowadays for this Canadian.Much cheaper was importing Sachs OEM parts from Ebay Germany.Seller ttMoto.de?

Tomas at ttMoto.de? Another K-Bike rider.[/QUOTE

Now he tells me ! I still have a few more items I need. I'll give him a try. I replaced the slave seal and set it in about a MM too effing deep. This is after I marked the seal driver/socket I used to get the right depth !! So I'm gonna replace it again

Now? I think I posted the details before.Not a BMW part dealer per se.But has Sachs OEM clutches for most BMWs.

Pricing over the US parts? About 20-25% cheaper last year.Over Canadian prices? 50%cheaper.

Just under $500.00 CAD for the two plates,the friction disk,the diaphragm spring,the ring and the slave gasket.That was including the Cdn taxes I had to pay once the parts arrived in Canada and of course shipping.Got my parts in just over 2 weeks.

He is on Fleabay but his prices are better if you go straight to his website.Avoids the fleabay seller's overcharges.

Slave seal? Forget all that depth rigmarole.Mount flush with the boss inside the cavity.Socket just oversize enough that it won't go through the case.Same with the output seal.Flush with the case.

Front seal? Spacer made out of some plastic that was just the right thickness.4mm off the top of my head?Still sitting in my toolbox full of useful BMW DIY tools.

You may be fine with that slave seal.I'll go check on a dismantled transmission in a few minutes and do some comparisons with a complete other one with seals removed.
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Old 03-12-2018, 12:07 PM
Rob955i Rob955i is offline
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Re: Clutch Replacement

[quote=pbegin@burton]
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Originally Posted by Rob955i

Now? I think I posted the details before.Not a BMW part dealer per se.But has Sachs OEM clutches for most BMWs.

Pricing over the US parts? About 20-25% cheaper last year.Over Canadian prices? 50%cheaper.

Just under $500.00 CAD for the two plates,the friction disk,the diaphragm spring,the ring and the slave gasket.That was including the Cdn taxes I had to pay once the parts arrived in Canada and of course shipping.Got my parts in just over 2 weeks.

He is on Fleabay but his prices are better if you go straight to his website.Avoids the fleabay seller's overcharges.

Slave seal? Forget all that depth rigmarole.Mount flush with the boss inside the cavity.Socket just oversize enough that it won't go through the case.Same with the output seal.Flush with the case.

Front seal? Spacer made out of some plastic that was just the right thickness.4mm off the top of my head?Still sitting in my toolbox full of useful BMW DIY tools.

You may be fine with that slave seal.I'll go check on a dismantled transmission in a few minutes and do some comparisons with a complete other one with seals removed.

Trying to find his website, if I can find him on ebay I should be able to get to his site lol! I have all the clutch parts already from Max, but im hoping your right about the balance mark still being on the clutch housing.Problem with the slave seal is I already mounted it, so obviously theres no saving it now, its gonna get destroyed trying to remove it so have to buy a new one anyway. the 2 other seals I put are fine.....I hope. No I have them in right where the old ones were.
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Old 03-12-2018, 08:37 PM
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Re: Clutch Replacement

Touchy seal the output seal at the driveshaft.Even from the factory runs dangerously close to the lube hole on that shaft.

Even dealer's repairs seemed to fail at what I tought was rather low milleage.That's from years ago when I really looked into that.

Fill transmission and lean on its back.You'll know sooner than later.

Spec on how deep is your slave seal? Measured right at the edge where it touches the case? Ain't flat so right at the edge?

I spent a little time this afternoon measuring.So I have a min/max spec in mind.Rather accurate so post yours....I'll say yay or nay.

For now? Mounted flush the rear seals? 100,000 miles on one transmission and 25,000 on the other.No leaks so that's my well tested by now installation procedure.Simple and effective.
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Old 03-12-2018, 10:20 PM
Rob955i Rob955i is offline
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Re: Clutch Replacement

So if I have the seal to close to the lube hole it's gonna leak correct, so by filing the tranny and laying it on it should leak by?

Alright if I send you pics of the slave seal depth in a pm? Like I said before trying to post pics on this site is the equivalent of splitting the atom!
I can tell you right now I have the seal to deep !
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Old 03-12-2018, 10:47 PM
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Re: Clutch Replacement

Easy posting pics on here.Cel phone and on here in a couple minutes?

I think my pic of the lube hole is still up on Gregg's (the squid) thread?He didn't listen much and sure found out that he probably should have mounted that one flush.

The seal at the slave if pushed too far will block the oil feed passage to the shaft bearing.But we have a little leeway.Not much but some.

I actually opened my leaky after bench testing transmission back then to push the seals out.Not to save $$$ but had to go back to work for a month and needed my bike ready for my return in April.Some trepidations then as to opening one of them transmissions but relatively easy.And got my pic of the lube hole and from the pic OEM depth runs dangerously close to the hole.No leeway there so flush mount is the safe effective way.Fast too....!
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Old 03-12-2018, 11:12 PM
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Re: Clutch Replacement

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Originally Posted by pbegin@burton
Easy posting pics on here.Cel phone and on here in a couple minutes?

I think my pic of the lube hole is still up on Gregg's (the squid) thread?He didn't listen much and sure found out that he probably should have mounted that one flush.

The seal at the slave if pushed too far will block the oil feed passage to the shaft bearing.But we have a little leeway.Not much but some.

I actually opened my leaky after bench testing transmission back then to push the seals out.Not to save $$$ but had to go back to work for a month and needed my bike ready for my return in April.Some trepidations then as to opening one of them transmissions but relatively easy.And got my pic of the lube hole and from the pic OEM depth runs dangerously close to the hole.No leeway there so flush mount is the safe effective way.Fast too....!

I buried the shaft seal to deep to. It's not flush, I drove it to the bottom of the cavity it sits in. You know how many times I read that part in Greg's journey? I read that part over and over lol ! I'm gonna single handedly keep BMW in business buying the seals up.
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Old 03-13-2018, 11:57 AM
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Re: Clutch Replacement

That's why I now use a slightly oversize socket.

35.5 mm from the edge of the case when mounted flush.
36 mm when mounted at what I believe is factory setting.Just beyond the beveled edge.

37 mm would be absolute max not to impede oil feed to the bearing.

Anything beyond that? 40-41 mm will open the oil passage to the outside/slave cavity.Big leak.....

Good seals them Kaco FKM (Viton) seals.The orange ones? As per Kaco an improvment over their earlier also FKM black ones.frED technology for less friction and better sealing?

Still Viton so drill the weep hole just in case.Viton/FKM does not resist DOT4.

Gregg?Blue/cooked clutch plates?I think the pics of that are gone.Too much racing other squids at street lights?That could do it? .....I have a K1200RS clutch pack here.28Ks.....metal plates got so hot that one of them is showing stress cracks and both very much dished in.Friction disk is just about shredded.
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Old 03-13-2018, 03:11 PM
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Re: Clutch Replacement

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Originally Posted by pbegin@burton
That's why I now use a slightly oversize socket.

35.5 mm from the edge of the case when mounted flush.
36 mm when mounted at what I believe is factory setting.Just beyond the beveled edge.

37 mm would be absolute max not to impede oil feed to the bearing.

Anything beyond that? 40-41 mm will open the oil passage to the outside/slave cavity.Big leak.....

Good seals them Kaco FKM (Viton) seals.The orange ones? As per Kaco an improvment over their earlier also FKM black ones.frED technology for less friction and better sealing?

Still Viton so drill the weep hole just in case.Viton/FKM does not resist DOT4.

Gregg?Blue/cooked clutch plates?I think the pics of that are gone.Too much racing other squids at street lights?That could do it? .....I have a K1200RS clutch pack here.28Ks.....metal plates got so hot that one of them is showing stress cracks and both very much dished in.Friction disk is just about shredded.

I measured with a vernier and I buried the slave seal 39.+ mm's. It may be safe but thats not where it was so im gonna do it over again, I marked it and still drove it past the mark so I deserve it. I wasnt aware that there are Viton seals available for the transmission? Was that talked about in Gregg's post cause I didnt see it?

I also mounted the drive shaft seal to far in I believe, The cavity it fits in, I drove it to the bottom of it. Effing these 2 seals up is not giving me great confidence for when I mount the main seal.

The clutch in it right now looks in really good shape, by eye anyway. I dont think Ill be throwing it in the scrap heep thats for sure. Ill measure the friction plate and see if theres any warpage in the others and go from there.
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Old 03-14-2018, 10:35 AM
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Re: Clutch Replacement

Rear main seal? Flush to the case.

Read the transmission seals markings.Either old black ones or new orange ones? All marked FKM.FKM is designation for Viton material.Viton is a trade name and registered as such.

http://www.sealanddesign.com/page/viton-material

39mm? I don't think it would leak out but it is blocking the oil channel to the bearing by 2mm.Channel is about 3-4 mm deep.I wouldn't starve that bearing,not an easy one to replace if even possible.

I fucked up on my last transmission output seal/driveshaft.Went in a little crooked I tought so I tought I could give it another little tap.Wrong....We do not even have 0.5mm leeway.

Engine main seal? Sure wasn't leaking when I first went in there.Neither was the O-ring but that was coming as it was dried out and cracking.

New Viton O-ring.Replaced that one again 80,000 kms later.Left the 80Kms main seal alone that time.Viton O-ring was in perfect condition but I have a few spares so replaced it.Has to be cut out of there anyway to pull out the carrier.

Replaced my clutch/transmission a year ago?Never even pulled the carrier out.Rear main seal is now at 200,000kms and the Viton O-ring at 120,000.

I pat the belly of the beast once in a while but I don't ever expect a leak.
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Old 03-14-2018, 04:12 PM
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Re: Clutch Replacement

The only Viton seal I could find that was the right size was the slave shaft seal 17x28x7. I couldnt find the others, 20x32x8, 25x40x6, dont know how many sites I looked on, must have been 6 or 8. Sure would like to cause I dont want to have to do this again for quite sometime. but other than my seal f-ups, the job has gone smooth and ive kinda enjoyed doing it, found some other issues like the crank breather hose was cracked and dumped oil all over....everything on top of the engine. Sent the fuel injectors out to be cleaned, the guy called and asked me if it was running on all 4 cylinders, so im hoping they'll be an improvement there.

Thats another issue im worried about is putting these damn seals in cockeyed!

Im not understanding why these bearings need lubrication, they're all sealed bearings? I havent had my eyes on the tranny output bearing yet, is that a sealed bearing also?
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Old 03-14-2018, 05:44 PM
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Re: Clutch Replacement

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Originally Posted by Rob955i
I'm praying that mark is on there, wasn't able to get to it this weekend, to much b.s. go in on around me, wasted damn weekend
I don't believe the paint marks are for balance but rather locating marks, how can you balance parts as a whole if they are sold separately. Im guessing that each part is balanced separately LOL, Think this is an old BMW wives tail but then again that's how I did ALL THREE! of mine, never will I ever do it again.
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Old 03-14-2018, 08:23 PM
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Re: Clutch Replacement

Hey, Rob,

If you are installing tranny seals, you need IPC P-80 lube. The stuff is like magic. https://www.ipcol.com/assembly-lubricants/p80-emulsion

The first time I used it was on my BIG, FD, rear wheel seal. Got everything ready, then my brother (an old MC mechanic) said dip my finger in this little cup of looked like water and smear it around the seal. I did but it didn't stick, at all. He said to go ahead and put it in. I did and told him they sent the wrong seal because it went in WAAAAY too easy. A few minutes later it wouldn't come out. I was flabbergasted, dumbfounded.

Last Sat morning we mounted a new Pirelli 170/60 on the rear of my K12RS. Used P-80 on it and damn near got it ON without any tools. Had to use a rubber mallet a few times to get the last few inches over the rim. The first bead was a slam. I wanted to keep pushing just for the bragging rights but he got impatient and grabbed the mallet.

I'll never be without P-80 again, I'll tell you that.
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Old 03-14-2018, 08:44 PM
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Re: Clutch Replacement

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Originally Posted by BAK04GT
I don't believe the paint marks are for balance but rather locating marks, how can you balance parts as a whole if they are sold separately. Im guessing that each part is balanced separately LOL, Think this is an old BMW wives tail but then again that's how I did ALL THREE! of mine, never will I ever do it again.

Maybe the paint mark is to mark the heavy spot ??? All I can gather is that they're suppose to be assembled in a 1/3rd pattern. I have to go by what the Clymers tell me. I would lime to have them all balan ed together at a shop that specializes in it but......
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Old 03-14-2018, 10:58 PM
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Re: Clutch Replacement

Rob,

I forgot to mention that you should consider replacing the crankcase breather hose. It gets old, cracks, and dumps oil on the top of your engine making a mess everywhere, and allowing air into the TB's.

#5 in the parts diagram below, only the soft plastic "S" hose goes bad. Happened to me.

https://parts.bmwmotorcyclesofcountr...t/13_0542.html
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Old 03-15-2018, 09:55 AM
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Re: Clutch Replacement

I already got a new one, the old one had a huge crack in it and did precisely that, dumped oil all over the top of the motor. I wish I saw pbegins homemade one before I would have paid him to make me one !
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Old 03-15-2018, 10:20 AM
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Re: Clutch Replacement

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob955i
The only Viton seal I could find that was the right size was the slave shaft seal 17x28x7. I couldnt find the others, 20x32x8, 25x40x6, dont know how many sites I looked on, must have been 6 or 8. Sure would like to cause I dont want to have to do this again for quite sometime. but other than my seal f-ups, the job has gone smooth and ive kinda enjoyed doing it, found some other issues like the crank breather hose was cracked and dumped oil all over....everything on top of the engine. Sent the fuel injectors out to be cleaned, the guy called and asked me if it was running on all 4 cylinders, so im hoping they'll be an improvement there.

Thats another issue im worried about is putting these damn seals in cockeyed!

Im not understanding why these bearings need lubrication, they're all sealed bearings? I havent had my eyes on the tranny output bearing yet, is that a sealed bearing also?

Look at the seals markings.I don't know why you are looking for Viton as they already are from the factory.

Sealed bearings? That's funny.Google the specs for them bearings...I'll doublecheck later but they are TM(?).Special transmission bearings and widely used in the industry nowadays.As nowadays from as far back as the 80s.Would be a big mistake replacing them with sealed bearings.The gist of that?They only look sealed.Sealed to prevent metal bits from intruding and destroying them Oil freely goes in by design.

Don't fuck around with the balancing marks.Had to send a K-bike rider back in a few years ago.He ignored the procedure and found himself with a vibey K.Lucky for him he found the marks second time around.And rescued one of my riding buddies many years ago from the same mistake.
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Old 03-15-2018, 12:49 PM
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Re: Clutch Replacement

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Originally Posted by pbegin@burton
Look at the seals markings.I don't know why you are looking for Viton as they already are from the factory.

Sealed bearings? That's funny.Google the specs for them bearings...I'll doublecheck later but they are TM(?).Special transmission bearings and widely used in the industry nowadays.As nowadays from as far back as the 80s.Would be a big mistake replacing them with sealed bearings.The gist of that?They only look sealed.Sealed to prevent metal bits from intruding and destroying them Oil freely goes in by design.

Don't fuck around with the balancing marks.Had to send a K-bike rider back in a few years ago.He ignored the procedure and found himself with a vibey K.Lucky for him he found the marks second time around.And rescued one of my riding buddies many years ago from the same mistake.

New seals I received from BMW are Brown. I didnt know they were viton, they give you viton seals for the tranny and not for the 19x4 o-ring ?? And by looking at the bearings they look like sealed bearings, of course that would make less sense lol. Thats why I questioned it.

As far as the clutch goes I'm going by the book, dont have a choice anyway.
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Old 03-15-2018, 12:53 PM
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Re: Clutch Replacement

That will do for today:

Pic of how close to the lube hole the OEM seal depth puts the seal lip.So correction WE DO NOT have 0.5mm of leeway.

Sorry about the rust interfering with the shiny wear part of the pic but not my original transmission or storage procedure.

Fresh from the phone via Flickr sharing and the 2BBcode App.....about as big a picture I can post quickly:

And I ain't cleaning any rusty shit today to show better!


2018-03-15_09-09-56 by Pierre Begin - Flickr2BBcode



2018-03-15_09-09-56 by Pierre Begin - Flickr2BBcode

FYI? Link pasted directly into my post without going through the little mountain/sun icon at the top of the reply box.

Transmission bearing is a NSK TM205.TM is the spec if one wants to find out more about them "special" bearings.
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Old 03-15-2018, 01:11 PM
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Re: Clutch Replacement

Rob,

THE O-ring needs to be Viton. I don't know if BMW is providing that O-ring in Viton, maybe Pierre knows. I had a hard time finding one. It's not a "seal" between rotating parts just static, but the nitrile or buna n will harden with heat and leak again where Viton won't.
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Old 03-15-2018, 02:33 PM
Rob955i Rob955i is offline
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Re: Clutch Replacement

Pierre, I can see now how it wouldnt take much to cover that lube hole so getting that seal to the right depth will be critical wont it? Appreciate you taking the time to post them pics. for me and no need to be cleaning rust! And that sure does look like a sealed bearing . By the way I think a little rubnbuff on the shaft and splines might bring it back to life ! Wow! definitley has seen better days.

Lowndes,

I was under the impression that the o-ring from BMW was not a viton. I do have a viton that Beech gave me. He also loaned me his frequent flyer tools and he puts one in with that kit also. By the way I also grabbed some of the P80 seal lubricant you mentioned.
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Old 03-15-2018, 03:15 PM
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Re: Clutch Replacement

The BMW O-ring isn't a Viton O-ring.Wasn't years ago even after the part number update that made some say that it was now (or then)Viton.

Just in case BMW had updated the material between 2010 and 2017 without changing the part number, I ordered a fresh 2017/18(?) yr from Max.So? A few bucks out of my pocket to confirm that it isn't Viton.Just a regular NBR O-ring altough they may have toughened it up some,still NBR.

Case closed...but old myths never seem to die.

And I remember asking on here back in 09?Where do I find Viton O-rings?Napa was the answer?

Yeah right.....!
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Old 03-15-2018, 08:14 PM
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Re: Clutch Replacement

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob955i
Pierre, I can see now how it wouldnt take much to cover that lube hole so getting that seal to the right depth will be critical wont it? Appreciate you taking the time to post them pics. for me and no need to be cleaning rust! And that sure does look like a sealed bearing . By the way I think a little rubnbuff on the shaft and splines might bring it back to life ! Wow! definitley has seen better days.

But for the corroded splines and corroded case the innards might have been good for spares.

Until I poured out the black oil.....sparkling bits of metal and found the cracked torsion dampener and wear marks on the gears.Not a lot of milles for a BMW transmission and less than half of mine that was mint inside.Treat yours nicely and forget them clutchless shifts that I believe may have damaged the dampener.That's why they seem to shift smooth even without clutch. Spring loaded dampener takes and absorbs the hits but there could be a limit.....

Bearings all seem good? I'd guess the TM seal spec that lets oil in but prevents bits of metal from wearing the bearings is the right spec for them transmissions?Amazing even some of them old coots riders and even mechanics still believe they are sealed......!Myths are hard to kill even when I post the right paperwork.
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Old 03-16-2018, 10:59 AM
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Re: Clutch Replacement

I was looking through my pics.Tought I had a pic of the rather visible large creamy paint mark on the clutch carrier?No pic...! Unlike the marks on the cast metal clutch plates that one doesn't just disappear? Strong chemicals may remove it but mine is still there.Only mark required if/when installing new parts.

New and much cheaper Sachs OEM parts from Thomas at ttMoto.de are marked on the side.Look closely if using them,got hints on the net that even some that have installed way more clutches than many of us may have missed the marks.But Rs are somewhat vibey by nature so a little more vibes may not be that noticeable?Ks sure are smoother....!


2018-03-16_07-51-47 by Pierre Begin - Flickr2BBcode

I don't know exactly where BMW puts the marks on the disks from the factory.I punch my own permanent marks always.Add a dab of paint not to stress my eyes much looking for punch marks.

Oh.....No rust on that one. 12,000 milles you can see where both lips of the FKM/Viton black OEM Kaco ran onto the shaft.That close from the lube hole.

Both lips as in there are TWO lips on them seals.Outside lip is a dust/crud seal and will not stop oil.


2018-03-16_07-00-01 by Pierre Begin - Flickr2BBcode

Should I have made an installation tool for the output seal One similar to the front seal?Front required a 5mm plastic pusher.Push the plastic flush to the case.Seal in place just where it should be not to block the oil feed passage to the front TM bearing.Not pretty my depth setter but sure did the job twice.5 mm.


2018-03-16_07-30-05 by Pierre Begin - Flickr2BBcode


Front seal? I heard about some front transmission bearing failures?Never on a RS or GT unless I missed it? LTs?Maybe someone had replaced the seal and pushed it in too far starving the TM bearing?
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Old 03-16-2018, 01:30 PM
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Re: Clutch Replacement

You know I dont think ive ever made clutchless shifts on any of my bikes, not even my sportbikes. Sure as hell aint gonna start on this one. Your gonna pay in the long run I dont care what anyone says lol!

As far as the bearings go I'll say it again, I thought they were sealed, but I was saying to myself why would there be lubrication openings for sealed bearings? Thought maybe BMW was on to something?? The bearings in my tranny seem alright, at least im not hearing any crunching and munching going on when I spin the shafts by hand.

So you made a plastic washer to install that seal, the 20x32x8 ? Im pulling the clutch today, I have it all marked up and Im hoping there is at least a mark left on the clutch housing. I just kind of dry wiped the old housing cover and dont see any white paint mark but I cant see all the way around it yet.
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Old 03-16-2018, 01:55 PM
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Re: Clutch Replacement

That's the front seal.Output seal at the driveshaft.....should have?Could have?Maybe I was crosseye a little thinking it was crooked but one little tap to correct was too much.

Crosseye because? End of day and last seal?End of day after installing a SpeedeSleeve to repair the shaft corosion on the main shaft behind the slave on that new to me transmission?

Heck of a job that.Had to sleep on that for a day if just to find a sneaky way to install the slave seal over that new edge from the SpeedeSleeve and not damage the seal in the process.Phew.....!

Transmission has to be dismantled to install a SpeedeSleeve on probably all them shafts unless you take a blind chance and block oil passages.
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Old 03-16-2018, 02:53 PM
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Re: Clutch Replacement

A little a propos?

I think(just maybe???? ) that disk below is within the max allowable spec as to how much dishing is too much before they should be replaced.

Spec bandied about but certainly not a BMW spec.Spec that I shouldn't have listened to back then?Maybe a cheapo spec to justify a cheap repair and friction disk only replacement?Cheapo like me?

Or a low miller spec where the further con$equence$ of reusing dished in plates may take years to show?Didn't take me that long.....!

Max deflection spec as per internet lore is? I know what it is.....but consider something?They'll keep on dishing over time.All BMW clutches do that.

I think my Starrett tool is straight?Gap is????Not sure that may not be my bike's old clutch anyway.....!


2018-03-16_11-08-53 by Pierre Begin - Flickr2BBcode
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Old 03-17-2018, 02:02 PM
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Re: Clutch Replacement

I dont think Ive ever seen anything like that Starrett tool, well I saw it on Greg's thread but thats it lol. Wouldnt the plate and the tool have to be sitting on a perfectly flat surface to get an accurate reading ??
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Old 03-18-2018, 10:57 AM
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Re: Clutch Replacement

Don't worry about the tool....that was my Dad's and a little too long for that anyway.Just happened to be at hand for a quick pic then.Ends sit on the edges of the disk where the friction plate doesn't contact so that lifts the tool too far up and makes the dishing look worse than it is.

My little machinist square is shorter altough one could just cut a straight ruler and insert feeler gauges under the gap.And there may also be some warping,gets much harder to assess unless spun on a lathe etc....etc.

And I was just looking through pics.....got lots of them.At about this time last year I was ready to do a technical thread on clutches/transmissions and dispel a few more myths but life and poor internet connection interfered.
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Old 03-18-2018, 11:48 AM
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Re: Clutch Replacement

Straight new clutch parts are rather affordable there:

https://www.ttmoto.de/epages/6454681...Shops/64546813

Better link in classic view?


https://www.ttmoto.de/epages/6454681...?ClassicView=1


He is on ebay but cheaper on his website.Avoids some of the ebay seller's fees that most of them will pass on to us buyers.And logging in on his website as a customer the VAT is automatically deducted in the cart for us outside the EU.

https://m.ebay.ca/itm/BMW-K-1200-RS-...-/121885319189
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Old 03-19-2018, 09:06 AM
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Re: Clutch Replacement

Shit even thru his ebay site it would have been cheaper then going thru Max but to late now.

On another note, being as observant and as smart as I am, there was no balance mark on my clutch housing. But a friend of mine pointed out that there were additional holes drilled out on one area of the housing right beside the bolt holes for the clutch cover !
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Old 03-20-2018, 12:54 PM
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Re: Clutch Replacement

Quote:
Originally Posted by sailor
OF COURSE, this is the 3rd option that I did not mention. There are some expert in many states / countries that will balance car clutch, so they could do the same for our clutch.

Above is assuming they want to look at it ...AND... also assuming they could rig this in their apparatus (given the specific diameter / size of the splines hole in the clutch-housing). These are the main reasons I did not offer this 3rd option earlier.

Not an easy task to find a reputable shop that will not make matter worse. You have no way to prove what they did is correct - hence the reputation / experience is VERY important.

HOWEVER, if they did incorrect, you would potentially have more engine / drive-train vibration after rebuild. Problem would / should be worst at higher RPM in such case of large imbalance.


Did you ever notice that on the front or face of the clutch housing, where the housing cover bolt holes are or where the cover bolts to it I should say, that one of the 3 spots where the cover bolts to it has additional holes drilled in it? Has to be for balancing?
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Old 03-20-2018, 01:40 PM
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Re: Clutch Replacement

I dont know if you can make this out but its suppose to show a pic. of the clutch housing and the holes I think were drilled for balancing.



3.jpg
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Old 03-20-2018, 01:41 PM
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Re: Clutch Replacement

Ill try again
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Old 03-20-2018, 01:46 PM
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Re: Clutch Replacement

3_resized.jpg
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Old 03-20-2018, 01:47 PM
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Re: Clutch Replacement

Fuck it!
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Old 03-20-2018, 04:45 PM
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Re: Clutch Replacement

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob955i
Did you ever notice that on the front or face of the clutch housing, where the housing cover bolt holes are or where the cover bolts to it I should say, that one of the 3 spots where the cover bolts to it has additional holes drilled in it? Has to be for balancing?

OF course I did... this all normal and is the way that SACHS (OEM supplier) tries to make separate parts as much balanced as possible.

A perfect part made out of such shape is impossible, so they are all a bit different and will have various holes on either 1 leg or 2 legs (at 120 deg apart). Like everything, mechanical perfection has a cost, so they stop (drilling / balancing) once they reach a certain acceptable tolerance (not published).

Same logic applies about manufacturing a perfectly balanced tire... there is no such thing, unless you want to make the manufacturing process VERY expensive - just not worth it for such parts. The manufacturing process implements checks, tolerances , rejects with-or-without corrections if possible (easier to remove material from a clutch housing than from a tire...

Besides mine, I have examined about 20 pictures of different parted K1200LT and K1200RS on EBAY. Many have 1 or 2 holes in one leg. Some have 3 to 5 holes spread over 2 legs (120 deg apart).

DO NOT assume for a minute that the side having more holes was the heavy side. This is a 50/50% proposition. We know they stop when they reach an acceptable level and then mark the heavy spot with paint. Once they stop drilling the heavy side could very well be on the other leg without holes (as long as it is within their tolerances on "unbalance").

Same logic applies to Pressure-Plate and Clutch-cover - they often have various number of drilled spots.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Pressure-Plate.jpg (70.9 KB, 5 views)
File Type: jpg clutch-cover.jpg (64.0 KB, 5 views)
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Parts for K1200RS for sale here:
http://www.i-bmw.com/classifieds/sho...500&ppuser=144
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Old 03-20-2018, 05:34 PM
Rob955i Rob955i is offline
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Re: Clutch Replacement

DO NOT assume for a minute that the side having more holes was the heavy side. This is a 50/50% proposition. We know they stop when they reach an acceptable level and then mark the heavy spot with paint. Once they stop drilling the heavy side could very well be on the other leg without holes (as long as it is within their tolerances on "unbalance").

Then maybe the side with the holes drilled on mine is still the heavy spot? Because the old plates were 120 degress from each other and from the drilled holes in the housing..

I have to tell ya there was no paint mark on the clutch housing, I went over that thing with a magnifying glass before I wiped it off and when I wiped it off I did not use any solvents. Im putting the housing back on where it was and putting the new clutch plates on where the old ones were. The old plates still had paint marks on em... I think thats the correct position, if not then Ill be parting this bike out when the tranny shakes to obliteration lol. I feel this a lot of nonsense and I am not spending $500 on a new housing cause it has a paint mark.
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