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"K13S/R" Technical Q&A K1200S/R Technical Questions/Answers

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  #61  
Old 07-17-2009, 07:27 PM
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Re: K1300S Stalling?

Quote:
Originally Posted by tom_versluys
I'm sure the stalling problem on my bike is not caused by low quality fuel.
I'm always using 98 octane fuel (Europe) from well known brands (Shell, Total, ...).
As the injection is modified when using lower grade octane fuel (95 octane), this shouldn't cause the stalling problem.

I'm wondering if people with the quickshifter option also have this stalling problem.
As the software for the ECU with the quickshifter is probably different, maybe they don't have it. Could anyone confirm this ?
Maybe I have to just get the quickshift option to solve the problem

I have the quickshift and the stalling problem also. Mine doesn't seem to be so bad though, but yes it still shouldn't be there!
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  #62  
Old 07-17-2009, 07:34 PM
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Re: K1300S Stalling?

Quote:
Originally Posted by tom_versluys
I'm sure the stalling problem on my bike is not caused by low quality fuel.
I'm always using 98 octane fuel (Europe) from well known brands (Shell, Total, ...).
As the injection is modified when using lower grade octane fuel (95 octane), this shouldn't cause the stalling problem.

I'm wondering if people with the quickshifter option also have this stalling problem.
As the software for the ECU with the quickshifter is probably different, maybe they don't have it. Could anyone confirm this ?
Maybe I have to just get the quickshift option to solve the problem

These stalling issues are the same stalling issues that are on the K12. The K12s stall the same way as the K13s stall. It's not the quick shifter - but go ahead and get one anyway.
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  #63  
Old 07-17-2009, 07:57 PM
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Re: K1300S Stalling?

Quickshifter here too, along with the stalling. I did file with the NHTSA and yesterday went to my dealer for the second time to see if they could figure it out. Tech test rode, checked for vacuum in fuel tank, said it sputtered twice but didn't stall. End of story. Dealer would not do anything as he says BMW doesn't pay him unless he finds something wrong. Great. He believes it is in the mapping, which he can do nothing about. If it was simply a mapping issue, why hasn't BMW done something with it in all the years they've been making the 1200 series? And if it is mapping it should affect EVERYONES bikes, not just a few of us. I really think it is something out of spec, like the O2 sensor or another sensor on the bike that is marginal so it doesn't create a fault, but causes the problem.
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  #64  
Old 07-17-2009, 08:38 PM
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Re: K1300S Stalling?

This seems very plausible...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Videoguy
Quickshifter here too, along with the stalling. I did file with the NHTSA and yesterday went to my dealer for the second time to see if they could figure it out. Tech test rode, checked for vacuum in fuel tank, said it sputtered twice but didn't stall. End of story. Dealer would not do anything as he says BMW doesn't pay him unless he finds something wrong. Great. He believes it is in the mapping, which he can do nothing about. If it was simply a mapping issue, why hasn't BMW done something with it in all the years they've been making the 1200 series? And if it is mapping it should affect EVERYONES bikes, not just a few of us. I really think it is something out of spec, like the O2 sensor or another sensor on the bike that is marginal so it doesn't create a fault, but causes the problem.
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  #65  
Old 07-17-2009, 11:09 PM
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Re: K1300S Stalling?

Quote:
Originally Posted by tom_versluys
I'm sure the stalling problem on my bike is not caused by low quality fuel.
I'm always using 98 octane fuel (Europe) from well known brands (Shell, Total, ...).
As the injection is modified when using lower grade octane fuel (95 octane), this shouldn't cause the stalling problem.

I'm wondering if people with the quickshifter option also have this stalling problem.
As the software for the ECU with the quickshifter is probably different, maybe they don't have it. Could anyone confirm this ?
Maybe I have to just get the quickshift option to solve the problem

Have you looked at the color or deposits on the sparkplugs? There is some realllly crappy fuel sneaking out of refineries. A old friend who is service director at a GM dealer confirms that fuel problems got worse after Katrina. Replacing plugs and O2's on fairly new vehicles with driveability issues is now routine.

Does your dealer have an actual O2 tester, not just an educated opinion or guess?

Here is a crude but better than guessing bench test. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1mb4V...eature=related and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iXPdhai_5iE and this looks like a votech level video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4G6LiALLOEc
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  #66  
Old 07-18-2009, 01:37 PM
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Re: K1300S Stalling?

My 2005 K12S did not have the problem. It had it's own thoroughly documented electrical issues. My K13S has stalled once, right after the 600 mile service. I was riding, let's say, briskly. Out of a corner coming up to a stop, engine braking in 3rd, downshifted to second, and had to grab a handful of clutch and brake due to a dope in a Minivan pulling out of a driveway. It stalled, and it shouldn't have, it was a smooth chop. Fired right back up. Hasn't happened since.

As I read this, particularly Turbocohen's insistence on fuel quality, I put a few things together. I think I agree with him on Fuel quality. I have to wonder if the tuning is hyper-sensitive to fuel quality. The thing that makes me wonder is I know I gassed at a local Citgo. I had a gift card. Gassed my Passat there too. Ironically, a couple of days after the K13S stalled, I was pulling into my driveway, which is uphill, and stalled the Passat. It stalled 10 more times, right after I let out the clutch and started rolling. Kind of wheezed to a stop. Then it was clear. I had it service (scheduled) the next week, they found nothing, and guessed it was fuel quality.

Haven't gassed there since, go to Kwik Trips (certified top-tier if that means anything) and Shell and haven't any issues with car or bike since.

Otherwise, fueling has been spot on, no issues in the 1600 miles since the stall.

Fuel quality is increasingly spotty as refineries age and are overtaxed.
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  #67  
Old 07-18-2009, 03:03 PM
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Re: K1300S Stalling?

Quote:
Originally Posted by lownoterider
My 2005 K12S did not have the problem. It had it's own thoroughly documented electrical issues. My K13S has stalled once, right after the 600 mile service. I was riding, let's say, briskly. Out of a corner coming up to a stop, engine braking in 3rd, downshifted to second, and had to grab a handful of clutch and brake due to a dope in a Minivan pulling out of a driveway. It stalled, and it shouldn't have, it was a smooth chop. Fired right back up. Hasn't happened since.

As I read this, particularly Turbocohen's insistence on fuel quality, I put a few things together. I think I agree with him on Fuel quality. I have to wonder if the tuning is hyper-sensitive to fuel quality. The thing that makes me wonder is I know I gassed at a local Citgo. I had a gift card. Gassed my Passat there too. Ironically, a couple of days after the K13S stalled, I was pulling into my driveway, which is uphill, and stalled the Passat. It stalled 10 more times, right after I let out the clutch and started rolling. Kind of wheezed to a stop. Then it was clear. I had it service (scheduled) the next week, they found nothing, and guessed it was fuel quality.

Haven't gassed there since, go to Kwik Trips (certified top-tier if that means anything) and Shell and haven't any issues with car or bike since.

Otherwise, fueling has been spot on, no issues in the 1600 miles since the stall.

Fuel quality is increasingly spotty as refineries age and are overtaxed.

I use Shell almost exclusively and still experiencing some stalls
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  #68  
Old 07-18-2009, 03:29 PM
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Re: K1300S Stalling?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael1515
I use Shell almost exclusively and still experiencing some stalls
May I ask how the bike was broken in? By the book, Real easy on rpm's and throttle, Moderate workout w/out redlining, like it was stolen..
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  #69  
Old 07-18-2009, 04:38 PM
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Re: K1300S Stalling?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Turbocohen
May I ask how the bike was broken in? By the book, Real easy on rpm's and throttle, Moderate workout w/out redlining, like it was stolen..

Yeah I broke it in by the book! Kept it low and varied on the rpms. No long trips or anything.
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  #70  
Old 07-18-2009, 04:49 PM
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Re: K1300S Stalling?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael1515
I use Shell almost exclusively and still experiencing some stalls
That's the problem, Michael... as soon as I switched back to Chevron, mine quit stalling... Just kidding... actually, our dealer suggested possible issues with the bikes having difficulty adapting to the various formulas of gasoline formulated for different seasons. I don't know if that's bullshit or not, but they're usually pretty straight up with their answers. Maybe Turbo can comment as he has much more knowledge of the subject we mere mortals. It does seem that the problem occurs almost exclusively in warmer temperatures, and I have been thinking that heat was a factor, but perhaps there is some validity to the theory of different gasoline formulas. Regardless, BMW should have figured it out...
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  #71  
Old 07-18-2009, 04:54 PM
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Re: K1300S Stalling?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael1515
Yeah I broke it in by the book! Kept it low and varied on the rpms. No long trips or anything.
I've developed a different theory on break-ins over the years, and my bikes now see many trips to redline on day 1... Unfortunately, it didn't seem to have any different outcome with the warm weather stalling issue...
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  #72  
Old 07-18-2009, 07:04 PM
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Re: K1300S Stalling?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael1515
Yeah I broke it in by the book! Kept it low and varied on the rpms. No long trips or anything.
Did it consume oil during break in?
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  #73  
Old 07-24-2009, 09:45 AM
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Re: K1300S Stalling?

I have the same stalling issue on my brand new K1300S (w/ 600 miles on it now). Mine only started occurring in the last 100 miles. When I pull up to a stop, if I slow down quickly and let off the throttle from >4000rpm, to no throttle, it will die. If I slowly let the RPM drop by manipulating the throttle, it will not die.

I've had this happen in 1st and 2nd gears. It is hard to tell if the bike is running or not and I was almost killed once when coming down a hill and trying to make a right turn at a stop sign (only to realize half-way through the intersection that my bike is dead).

This is a SERIOUS issue that needs resolved.

I also called Dynojet about the upcoming Power Commander V (not yet released for the K1300S). They said if they have no loaner bike to map a new system. They are in Las Vegas. If someone could lend them their bike, we could probably get the new PCV available and fix this issue.

Anyone in that area? Please call them.
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  #74  
Old 07-24-2009, 10:12 AM
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Re: K1300S Stalling?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Turbocohen
Did it consume oil during break in?

Not a drop.
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  #75  
Old 07-24-2009, 10:27 AM
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Re: K1300S Stalling?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaw704352
I have the same stalling issue on my brand new K1300S (w/ 600 miles on it now). Mine only started occurring in the last 100 miles. When I pull up to a stop, if I slow down quickly and let off the throttle from >4000rpm, to no throttle, it will die. If I slowly let the RPM drop by manipulating the throttle, it will not die.

I've had this happen in 1st and 2nd gears. It is hard to tell if the bike is running or not and I was almost killed once when coming down a hill and trying to make a right turn at a stop sign (only to realize half-way through the intersection that my bike is dead).

This is a SERIOUS issue that needs resolved.

I also called Dynojet about the upcoming Power Commander V (not yet released for the K1300S). They said if they have no loaner bike to map a new system. They are in Las Vegas. If someone could lend them their bike, we could probably get the new PCV available and fix this issue.

Anyone in that area? Please call them.

I have called them and they will install and do dyno on a K13S for free. I would like to take my bike up there but its just to darn hot to go in the summer through the dez. It sounds like a good deal but for me I'm not sure I just won't wait till the PC V is released. They can only do the work on a weekday which means at least one day of vacation and an overnight stay at the minimum. Also if the K13S has different injection tubes than the K12S they would have to fabricate those or something like that and you would have to do the trip all over again. The other funny thing is I talked to Rusty there and he indicated to that he had not heard of the stalling issues in either the K12s or the K13s....

Saying all that I would still do it.....just have to much going on right now with my road trip coming up and SGR in Sept!!
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  #76  
Old 07-24-2009, 10:38 AM
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Re: K1300S Stalling?

Probably best for someone who lives in the area (or someone going to Vegas for a vacation). Pretty sweet deal if you're close. This is the only thing that seemed to be a sure fix for the K1200S.

I live in Dallas, so that would be a bit of a stretch.

Anybody going to Vegas that could help us all fix this issue?
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  #77  
Old 07-24-2009, 10:43 AM
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Re: K1300S Stalling?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaw704352
I have the same stalling issue on my brand new K1300S (w/ 600 miles on it now). Mine only started occurring in the last 100 miles. When I pull up to a stop, if I slow down quickly and let off the throttle from >4000rpm, to no throttle, it will die. If I slowly let the RPM drop by manipulating the throttle, it will not die.

I've had this happen in 1st and 2nd gears. It is hard to tell if the bike is running or not and I was almost killed once when coming down a hill and trying to make a right turn at a stop sign (only to realize half-way through the intersection that my bike is dead).

This is a SERIOUS issue that needs resolved.

I also called Dynojet about the upcoming Power Commander V (not yet released for the K1300S). They said if they have no loaner bike to map a new system. They are in Las Vegas. If someone could lend them their bike, we could probably get the new PCV available and fix this issue.

Anyone in that area? Please call them.
Welcome to I-BMW Chaw.

The issue has been fixed many times but many dealers are in denial as to the course of action or so it seems. Our members are fortunate to have a few of the best damn bmw technicians as site members who anonymously share their experience and advice from time to time. At my request they do not directly submit through the site, few want to anyway, so corporate won't bear down on them.

I sound like a broken record on this topic.. At the 600 mile service, replace the oil & filter, spark plugs and O2 sensor. Ask the dealer if they have an O2 sensor tester. If they do not test the O2 properly then it will be unknown if your O2 is operating within spec i.e., responding fast enough to rich or lean exhaust and producing voltage that truly represents a rich or lean exhaust stream. There is a possibility the O2 and/or sparkplugs are affected by deposits resulting from exposure to assembly lube or oil carryover from breakin. A recent dealer demo bike had the book thrown at it and in the end it only needed an O2 to correct stumble, stall and hesitation. This is a known issue understood by the few proud no nonsense technicians who know their way around a bmw and know how well they run when everything is working as it was designed to.

Buy the best fuel you can find, there is a lot of lousy fuel on the market.
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Old 07-24-2009, 11:26 AM
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Re: K1300S Stalling?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Turbocohen
Welcome to I-BMW Chaw.

The issue has been fixed many times but many dealers are in denial as to the course of action it appears. Our members are fortunate to have a few of the best damn bmw technicians as site members who anonymously share their experience and advice. At my request they do not directly submit through the site, few want to anyway, so corporate won't bear down on them.

I sound like a broken record on this topic.. At the 600 mile service, replace the oil & filter, spark plugs and O2 sensor. Ask the dealer if they have an O2 sensor tester. If they do not test the O2 properly then it will be unknown if your O2 is operating within spec i.e., responding fast enough to rich or lean exhaust and producing voltage that truly represents a rich or lean exhaust stream. There is a possibility the O2 and/or sparkplugs are affected by deposits resulting from exposure to assembly lube or oil carryover from breakin. A recent dealer demo bike had the book thrown at it and in the end it only needed an O2 to correct stumble and hesitation. This is a known issue understood by the few proud no nonsense technicians who know their way around a bmw and know how well they run when everything is working as it was designed to.

Buy the best fuel you can find, there is a lot of lousy fuel on the market.

I'm no technician by any stretch of the imagination. Does the PC fix the items you are referring to in your post or is that something entirely different??
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  #79  
Old 07-24-2009, 11:41 AM
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Re: K1300S Stalling?

Should all authorized BMW dealers have an O2 tester? Suggested it to mine and he just shrugged his shoulders and walked away. I too am wondering if that could be the problem since it only affects low rpm engine performance and that is where the O2 sensor comes in in the mapping.
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Old 07-24-2009, 11:44 AM
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Re: K1300S Stalling?

Also please go to general discussions and fill in stalling poll. And if anyone out there knows how to edit a poll please let me know as there are a few more things I'd like to include.
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Old 07-24-2009, 12:22 PM
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Re: K1300S Stalling?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael1515
I'm no technician by any stretch of the imagination. Does the PC fix the items you are referring to in your post or is that something entirely different??
The PC is a crutch that covers up the problem by throwing more fuel in to the equasion. Alternatively, correcting the problem corrects the problem. If a technician does not know how to use an O2 tester or worse does not have one, they cannot look you in the eye and honestly tell you if the O2 is working within spec because they did not test it. If they turn and walk then you should look for another dealer with trained technicians. Some get it, others don't. This is a BMW corporate issue imo since they have some technicians telling the field rep what the issue is and the rep reportedly disagrees in some regions.
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Old 07-24-2009, 12:27 PM
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Re: K1300S Stalling?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Videoguy
Should all authorized BMW dealers have an O2 tester? Suggested it to mine and he just shrugged his shoulders and walked away. I too am wondering if that could be the problem since it only affects low rpm engine performance and that is where the O2 sensor comes in in the mapping.
Good dealers have a good O2 tester and sucky ones do not. Unless they have a decent o-scope and know how to honestly test an O2 (few do) then they will miss the boat and fewer customers will be satisfied with the bike. Our bikes depend on accurate and useful info from the O2 sensor in order to maintain relevant fuel calculations. If the O2 is out of spec then the erratic air fuel control results in excessive rich followed by excessive lean back and forth.. imagine turning the mixture screw on an older engine way rich then way lean several times a second. The engine rpms will rise and fall and it will stumble, hesitate or stall. Sound familiar guys?

Last edited by Turbocohen : 07-24-2009 at 06:19 PM.
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  #83  
Old 07-24-2009, 06:14 PM
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Re: K1300S Stalling?

Do you think it is worth me just going out and buying a new O2 sensor and installing it? For the $60 or so I'd be willing to try if we really think this will solve the issue. Only thing is, if it WAS right from the factory, what would cause the O2 sensor to go bad? Should I try running with the O2 sensor unplugged and see if the stalling continues? Also I did notice twice when the bike stalled a sulfur smell, like the cat farting, for lack of a better description. Does that mean anything? Just struggling to solve this, and I agree, shouldn't depend on an aftermarket device to get this right.
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  #84  
Old 07-24-2009, 06:21 PM
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Re: K1300S Stalling?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Videoguy
Do you think it is worth me just going out and buying a new O2 sensor and installing it?
I think it is worthwhile for your dealer to diagnose it under warranty and replace it under warranty if it is not operating within normal specifications. $60 is better spent as a tip for the technician who does your ride right.

A new O2 could conceivably fail due to exposure from either assembly or mfg residues of some kind or from possibly some component in the oil that carries over during breakin. I guess you could try running with the O2 unplugged to see how it runs in limp home mode but don't tell the dealer someone from the site said to
If you smell rotten eggs then either too much fuel is winding up in the cat from misfire or from running rich.

Many bikes run perfectly so I dismiss the opinions some have that a PC is needed. +1 for good diagnosis.
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  #85  
Old 07-25-2009, 12:18 AM
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Re: K1300S Stalling?

The discussion about the O2 sensor as relates to the stalling issue is thought provoking. I'm willing to test any hypothesis to resolve the stalling issue on my cycle. However, I know nothing about how the O2 sensor works, but if the O2 sensor is fouled or faulty, why does the stalling only happen once in while (once every 30 or 50 miles of riding in my case, and only on one day out of a dozen days riding, and only for part of the ride, and only when downshifting and pulling the clutch to remove load from the engine)? Why does the bike run fine much of the time? Seems like the O2 sensor works or it doesn't. If it doesn't work, it can't fix itself to make the bike run right most of the time, and mine does run right most of the time. Can you explain how the O2 sensor works and what other systems on the cycle are connected to it/adjust in response to inputs from it? That would help me understand how the O2 sensor could possibly be part of the stalling problem; stalling that only occurs infrequently and intermittantly on my cycle, and didn't start until I had nearly 1,500 miles on the bike and was 600 or 800 miles into the fresh oil after the 600 mile service (a few more miles in my case). Please help me understand if possible. Thanks
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Old 07-25-2009, 12:52 AM
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Re: K1300S Stalling?

Ok, so I'll try telling the dealer to check the O2 sensor, which he has had 2 opportunities to do so already and taken none. He stands by the theory that the mapping is bad, which I disagree. If it were a mapping problem all the bikes would be stalling. I still think it's a marginal component value, like the O2 sensor or some other sensor that is just slightly off spec. As far as trying the limp-home mode, would that really tell anything about the O2 sensor being the fault? If the ECU defaults to a DIFFERENT program without the O2 sensor, then that invalidates the value of removing the sensor from the equation. I really think that either testing by a GOOD tech or replacement is the only way to be sure of the O2 sensor theory. Now how the hell do I get the thing off? I've read that you need a special wrench to do it. True or false? If so why? Also the rotten egg smell came up on the last two stalls, does this also point to a possibly malfunctioning O2 sensor making the bike run too rich?

Thanks again!
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Old 07-25-2009, 06:54 PM
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Re: K1300S Stalling?

Just as a backup, does anybody know of the part number for the k1300s o2 sensor? I'm taking the bike in next week, but if I can't get them to test it, I'll just buy one myself.
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Old 07-25-2009, 07:17 PM
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Re: K1300S Stalling?

I took the bike back out last night. The engine cut out in 4th gear at 30mph this time as opposed to the pulling up to a stop sign death as usual. I put some better gas in it this time (93 Exon vs. previous 91 7-11 gas). It didn't happen again on my ride.

Better gas seems to help, but there is definitely an issue either way (bucking and jerking at anything below 30mph). I'm trying to find a part # for an O2 sensor for the 2009 K1300s (in case the dealer won't take care of it). I'll take it in next week for my 600 mi "checkup" and see if they can test the sensor...I'll let you guys know how it goes.

If anybody can look up the part #, let me know.
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Old 07-25-2009, 10:44 PM
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Re: K1300S Stalling?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaw704352
I took the bike back out last night. The engine cut out in 4th gear at 30mph this time as opposed to the pulling up to a stop sign death as usual. I put some better gas in it this time (93 Exon vs. previous 91 7-11 gas). It didn't happen again on my ride.


If you're expecting it to be smooth in 4th at 30MPH that's a problem. These are high performance machines are are not happy being "lugged" around. At 30...use 1st or 2nd and you'll get a lot better performance. Also, it's really not safe to be in that gear at that speed. If you have to accelerate to avoid a situation, you'll be toast...the bike won't pull fast enough for avoidance. FWIW.
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Old 07-26-2009, 12:00 AM
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Re: K1300S Stalling?

I have the same exact issue except mine only happens when the bike is just warming up. Didn't do this at until I was actually driving my bike in to the dealership for the 600mi service.

The Service Tech dismissed the problem and said he had never heard of the K1300S stalling. After reading this forum I find that highly unlikely. I talked to the service manager and he confirmed it happens.

Yesterday, the bike stalled and the rear wheel locked up and I went down. The fault codes show nothing wrong with the bike. When is BMW going to fix this safety hazard?

As anyone else crashed as a result of this?
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Old 07-26-2009, 12:12 PM
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Re: K1300S Stalling?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Loggiebone
If you're expecting it to be smooth in 4th at 30MPH that's a problem. These are high performance machines are are not happy being "lugged" around. At 30...use 1st or 2nd and you'll get a lot better performance. Also, it's really not safe to be in that gear at that speed. If you have to accelerate to avoid a situation, you'll be toast...the bike won't pull fast enough for avoidance. FWIW.

To be clear, I wasn't lugging around in 4th. I was still in 4th from going much faster, but pulled the clutch in and slowed down to around 30 when I saw my RPMs fall to aroun 1k, studder and go to 0k. let' not act like this issue is driver error, there are hundreds of people complaining about this and this can be a life-threatening ordeal.

I hope there are little if no people who drop $17k on a bike and don't know how to ride a bike. Most of us have had several bikes and I own several right now.

This is a Serious issue not to be nitpicked and blamed on drivers and gasoline quality! I have almost died once because of this and don't want it to happen again and am looking for solutions (which BMW has not offered). They can find a way to fix it, or buy back my bike so I can buy another bike that runs better, costs $5k less and let's me keep my life.
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Old 07-26-2009, 01:35 PM
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Re: K1300S Stalling?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Videoguy
Ok, so I'll try telling the dealer to check the O2 sensor, which he has had 2 opportunities to do so already and taken none. He stands by the theory that the mapping is bad, which I disagree. If it were a mapping problem all the bikes would be stalling. I still think it's a marginal component value, like the O2 sensor or some other sensor that is just slightly off spec. As far as trying the limp-home mode, would that really tell anything about the O2 sensor being the fault? If the ECU defaults to a DIFFERENT program without the O2 sensor, then that invalidates the value of removing the sensor from the equation. I really think that either testing by a GOOD tech or replacement is the only way to be sure of the O2 sensor theory. Now how the hell do I get the thing off? I've read that you need a special wrench to do it. True or false? If so why? Also the rotten egg smell came up on the last two stalls, does this also point to a possibly malfunctioning O2 sensor making the bike run too rich?

Thanks again!
I have a Bosh O2 sensor that I removed from my 08 (with a power commander the O2 isn't used) your wecome to it. I'm only about 15 miles from you .
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Old 07-26-2009, 01:40 PM
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Re: K1300S Stalling?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Billg
I have a Bosh O2 sensor that I removed from my 08 (with a power commander the O2 isn't used) your wecome to it. I'm only about 15 miles from you .
Same suggestion applies though, unless it is fresh from the box, it needs to be tested to verify that it is within spec.
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Old 07-26-2009, 05:01 PM
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Re: K1300S Stalling?

Sorry to hear one of us was down because of the stalling. I had a LONG talk yesterday with service mgr at my dealer and he thinks it is possibly a problem with Idle actuator motor or the software controlling it (map). He kind of dismissed the O2 sensor idea because he said that as the bike decels, the idle actuator takes over to stabilize and set idle speed. Anybody know if that's right? He also wasn't sure if there was any room for adjustment, but felt it was ONLY controllable from the map. So, that leaves the whole thing to BMW to fix, unless one of us can prove it is something else. I still strongly believe it is a marginal sensor of somekind....whether O2, air temp, etc.
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Old 07-26-2009, 06:18 PM
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Re: K1300S Stalling?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Videoguy
Sorry to hear one of us was down because of the stalling. I had a LONG talk yesterday with service mgr at my dealer and he thinks it is possibly a problem with Idle actuator motor or the software controlling it (map). He kind of dismissed the O2 sensor idea because he said that as the bike decels, the idle actuator takes over to stabilize and set idle speed. Anybody know if that's right? He also wasn't sure if there was any room for adjustment, but felt it was ONLY controllable from the map. So, that leaves the whole thing to BMW to fix, unless one of us can prove it is something else. I still strongly believe it is a marginal sensor of somekind....whether O2, air temp, etc.

The idle actuator controls idle speed, the O2 sensor feedback is used to control air/fuel ratio. The idle control does not overide the a/f ratio to take over idle quality as you are indicating your service manager stated. The map uses feedback from the O2, airtemp, rpms and more to control fuel delivery, spark timing, closed throttle angle etc which all affect idle speed and quality. If the a/f ratio is wildly swinging from rich to lean, lean to rich then the rpms can easily overshoot the target rpm and the idle control algorith (calibration) might over or under correct and loop droop and stall. In the old days this was called the result of the a/f ratio operating outside of the window.

If your service mgr kind of dismisses the possibility that the O2 sensor can cause stalling then consider the possibility that either the technicians in the back might know how engines run or consider the reality that there are better dealers out there who have corrected these problems in many cases. If the service manager will not authorize the technician to test the O2 sensor then ask him why. Another possibility is that either they do not know how to test or they do not have O2 test equipment. One of our anon technicians keeps a next to new sensor from the parts dept in his bag of tricks. If all tests indicate nothing is wrong then in goes the newish sensor. Often on a new bike running bad this resolves the issue but BMW apparently does not reimburse them for the part under warranty.. Odd huh. What is the name of the dealer that dismissed what might be going on?
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Old 07-27-2009, 01:32 AM
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Re: K1300S Stalling?

Dealer is Cross Country BMW in Metutchen NJ. Spoke with Joe (service manager) on Saturday about stalling after bike did it again twice in a 1 minute period going about 10 MPH in heavy traffic. Mentioned O2 sensor, he said not, but they did have eq to check it. He didn't say they wouldn't check it, just said he didn't think it would cause the stalling. His idea was idle actuator. What do I know anyway? I'm just guessing here based on my limited knowlege of FI systems. I believe you could be right, and have a donor O2 sensor in waiting. From your descriptiion of a problem O2 sensor it sounds exactly what my bike does just before it stalls. The tach bounces off 0, goes to about 1200 then drops to 0 and stalls. Guess I'll try it and see, after all, what do I have to loose except an hour or so removing and replacing plastic. Anybody out there know where the sensor is connected, and what I have to do to replace it? Somewhere under right side plastic right? BTW I appreciate your explanation of all this, hope it leads to a solution!
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Old 07-27-2009, 10:14 AM
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Re: K1300S Stalling?

Seem to be a few fingers pointing at the O2 sensor. However, if such is the case it seems like BMW would have figured that out long ago. Also, why would the O2 sensor work properly sometimes, not work properly at other times, then start to work properly again? I've had many vehicles with O2 sensors and driven hundreds of thousands of miles without having to replace one. It seems like O2 sensors are reasonably reliable. I guess I just don't understand well enough how the O2 sensor works to be able to conclude that's the problem. I'm going to try to be patient with my BMW dealer to see what they say - it's been less than a week since I informed them of the stalling problem on my K1300GT; if I don't hear back from them by mid this week, then I'll start becoming anoyed with them. By the way, I described the stalling problem over the phone to the service manager at another BMW dealer, and he immediately jumped to the conclusion that I had over-filled my gas tank and fouled the carbon canister. Only problem is, I had been riding trouble free for 100 miles on that tank of gas and was running on less than a tank of gas when the stalling happened for the first time. I've also never over-filled my tank. I get dissapointed in these folks when they don't know the full sequence of events but want to point the finger at something they believe I did to cause the problem. BMW has a design issue here that needs to be solved by BMW, and the sooner the better!
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Old 07-27-2009, 11:08 AM
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Re: K1300S Stalling?

Quote:
Originally Posted by tradue
I get dissapointed in these folks when they don't know the full sequence of events but want to point the finger at something they believe I did to cause the problem.

A common thread here is that with disappointing frequency, BMW dealers think that most BMW riders are dumb and screw up their bike!

Maybe we are dumb...for buying BMW's...
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Old 07-27-2009, 11:10 AM
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Re: K1300S Stalling?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaw704352
To be clear, I wasn't lugging around in 4th. I was still in 4th from going much faster, but pulled the clutch in and slowed down to around 30 when I saw my RPMs fall to aroun 1k, studder and go to 0k.

Gotcha!
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Old 07-27-2009, 03:23 PM
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Re: K1300S Stalling?

Quote:
Originally Posted by tradue
BMW has a design issue here that needs to be solved by BMW, and the sooner the better!

One of the best engineers I know who was developing digital efi systems and components at Bendix then Allied then Siemens then Siemens VDO before many of us had a drivers license taught me something early on when performing a durability or competitive analysis.. If many parts (yours or the competitors) pass but some fail then it is less likely a design issue and more likely a manufacturing variable, tolerance, contamination or other issue. Odds favor the latter after a component has been in production for a while. The instances where anon dealer technician replaced an O2 on a fairly new affected bike, they did not experience a repeat O2 failure.. indicating maybe something may be poisoning the sensor prior to the first oil change. I am not aware of any repeat O2 sensor failures within a reasonable mileage interval after the initial failed sensor was replaced.

Guys, this is ABC's.. plain and simple. Elementary 101 level engine control knowhow that many highschool age kids seem to have a better understanding of than us older folks. I grew up around closed loop controls and had the privilege to work with some fine engineers and techncians over the past 3 decades and they all have one thing in common when it comes to design troubleshooting that also applies to general troubleshooting in the repair shop.. First, Understand the problem. Second, narrow down the possible causes of the problem. Third, Isolate the root cause(s) of the problem. Fourth, Validate that the components at the root meet design specs and function under normal operating parameters. Fifth, replace/redesign the affected component(s). Repeat test. Of course if this fails too many times after the product is in production then the engineer is taken out back behind the asbestos lined shed and shot. Or worse they are reassigned to a senior position in marketing. I digress.
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Old 07-27-2009, 06:05 PM
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Re: K1300S Stalling?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Turbocohen
One of the best engineers I know who was developing digital efi systems and components at Bendix then Allied then Siemens then Siemens VDO before many of us had a drivers license taught me something early on when performing a durability or competitive analysis.. If many parts (yours or the competitors) pass but some fail then it is less likely a design issue and more likely a manufacturing variable, tolerance, contamination or other issue. Odds favor the latter after a component has been in production for a while. The instances where anon dealer technician replaced an O2 on a fairly new affected bike, they did not experience a repeat O2 failure.. indicating maybe something may be poisoning the sensor prior to the first oil change. I am not aware of any repeat O2 sensor failures within a reasonable mileage interval after the initial failed sensor was replaced.

Guys, this is ABC's.. plain and simple. Elementary 101 level engine control knowhow that many highschool age kids seem to have a better understanding of than us older folks. I grew up around closed loop controls and had the privilege to work with some fine engineers and techncians over the past 3 decades and they all have one thing in common when it comes to design troubleshooting that also applies to general troubleshooting in the repair shop.. First, Understand the problem. Second, narrow down the possible causes of the problem. Third, Isolate the root cause(s) of the problem. Fourth, Validate that the components at the root meet design specs and function under normal operating parameters. Fifth, replace/redesign the affected component(s). Repeat test. Of course if this fails too many times after the product is in production then the engineer is taken out back behind the asbestos lined shed and shot. Or worse they are reassigned to a senior position in marketing. I digress.

The problem with the highlighted statement above is BMW needs recognize there is a problem or they will never get to the other steps. Doesn't seem that they have even owned up that there is a problem yet.....
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Old 07-27-2009, 07:31 PM
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Re: K1300S Stalling?

I spoke with 2 reps from BMWNA about the problem today, and both agree BMW is aware of the problem. They are trying to get the tech side of the massive bureaucracy that they have to deal with to focus on this issue. Unfortunately the first call is supposed to come from the dealer to the regional tech dept from there to Germany if I got it straight. So, it would seem the delay on all this is coming from the dealers lack of responses to our issues. They MUST be the first to reoprt the problem to BMW as an unsolvable issue to have it escalated to the engineering dept. The two reps I spoke with, one a supervisor, said they would try to get the issue escalated if possible, but again that is against the chain of proceedure. It is almost certain that the switches, charcoal cannister, sidestand switch, and fuel issues have all been ruled out. I am trying to get them to use my bike as a guineypig this Friday so we'll see what happens. With a LOT of luck maybe we'll come up with something.
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Old 07-27-2009, 07:35 PM
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Re: K1300S Stalling?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael1515
The problem with the highlighted statement above is BMW needs recognize there is a problem or they will never get to the other steps. Doesn't seem that they have even owned up that there is a problem yet.....

Yeppers. A friends LT with chronic low rpm stumble got a fresh set of plugs and an O2 yesterday. After riding it an hour its the smoothest the bike has run since he bought it. After 20K miles yeah its premature but bricks put too much oil in the exhaust after being parked on the side and that likely aggravates the issue. In this case there was oil and road dirt all over the outside of the sensor which could have migrated into the atmospheric port. Some sensors have a membrane that can prevent crap from entering.. it can add some life to it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Videoguy
I am trying to get them to use my bike as a guineypig this Friday so we'll see what happens. With a LOT of luck maybe we'll come up with something.
Ask if engineering can send a tech out with an A/F ratio meter/datalogger so it is reading in real time independent of the bikes. It uses its own sensor so they may have to weld on a swageloc fitting or something similar upstream of the cat then cap it off after testing. PM me and I might be able to find out if you have a steady state smog dyno nearby which may make your bike a better target rich environment for them to send an outfitted tech/engr.

I have run into situations on the dyno when the ecu was not responding properly to a known good sensor when it warmed up.. turned out to be an intermittent internal open circuit. 20 years ago.

Good luck, T
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Old 07-28-2009, 08:10 AM
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Re: K1300S Stalling?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Videoguy
I spoke with 2 reps from BMWNA about the problem today, and both agree BMW is aware of the problem. They are trying to get the tech side of the massive bureaucracy that they have to deal with to focus on this issue. Unfortunately the first call is supposed to come from the dealer to the regional tech dept from there to Germany if I got it straight. So, it would seem the delay on all this is coming from the dealers lack of responses to our issues. They MUST be the first to reoprt the problem to BMW as an unsolvable issue to have it escalated to the engineering dept. The two reps I spoke with, one a supervisor, said they would try to get the issue escalated if possible, but again that is against the chain of proceedure. It is almost certain that the switches, charcoal cannister, sidestand switch, and fuel issues have all been ruled out. I am trying to get them to use my bike as a guineypig this Friday so we'll see what happens. With a LOT of luck maybe we'll come up with something.

that is a great step forward. I look forward to seeing what they say. Even without replicating the stall, they should be able to monitor the drunken stumble fueling at low rpms.
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Old 07-28-2009, 11:58 AM
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Re: K1300S Stalling?

Just got a note from BMW of Dallas. I was scheduling to take my bike (for the fueling issue) in and he service manager said that a fix is on its way from BMW and to be patient.

While I'm glad they are working on it, I hope it comes sooner rather than later. Looks like I won't get it looked at this week.
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Old 07-28-2009, 12:17 PM
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Re: K1300S Stalling?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaw704352
Just got a note from BMW of Dallas. I was scheduling to take my bike (for the fueling issue) in and he service manager said that a fix is on its way from BMW and to be patient.

While I'm glad they are working on it, I hope it comes sooner rather than later. Looks like I won't get it looked at this week.

Is this a "fix" for the stalling issue? Is there more info they can give you so we can relay to our dealer as well?
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Old 07-28-2009, 12:20 PM
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Re: K1300S Stalling?

This is all the service manager wrote in his email:

"[FONT='Arial','sans-serif']There is a fix coming from BMW for the fuel injection issues so just be patient and they'll release the fix shortly. "[/font]
[FONT='Arial','sans-serif'][/font]
[FONT='Arial','sans-serif']I asked for further clarification (i.e. if it was fuel mapping or a component) and have not heard a response yet.[/font]
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Old 07-28-2009, 12:34 PM
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Re: K1300S Stalling?

I hope he's legit but for some reason i'm not going to "hold my breath"
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Old 07-28-2009, 03:58 PM
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Re: K1300S Stalling?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael1515
I hope he's legit but for some reason i'm not going to "hold my breath"
its legit.. might be september/october.
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Old 07-28-2009, 05:52 PM
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Re: K1300S Stalling?

I wonder if the "Fix" will be for the K12s and K13s and how much it will cost if the bike is out of warranty. Not that the cost would prevent an one from getting it if the bike is out of warranty, but it sure should be free.
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Old 07-28-2009, 05:53 PM
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Re: K1300S Stalling?

So I bought a bike in June and get to wait 3-4 months before it gets fixed and works right? That is just wrong.
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  #112  
Old 07-28-2009, 10:20 PM
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Re: K1300S Stalling?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaw704352
So I bought a bike in June and get to wait 3-4 months before it gets fixed and works right? That is just wrong.

Deja Vu...just like the 05 S intro. The positive thing about your situation is that at least BMW has apparently admitted a problem. With the 05...it took about a year and it was still really never admitted. I guess this is an improvement with the new model...they admit the problems earlier.
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  #113  
Old 07-28-2009, 11:48 PM
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Re: K1300S Stalling?

I just took my K1300S in for the 600 mile service today. I have experienced consistent problems with stalling. In fact, on the 3 mile ride down to the shop, the bike stalled a total of 4 times.
The service manager said they had found a problem with the exhaust valve. Basically, the valve is closing completely when the vehicle goes to idle. The pc recognizes a fault and reports a code, but they can not erase or rectify the issue as they do not know what is causing the problem in the first place.
I refuse to ride the vehicle and they better start donating parts until the problem is solved. Plus, I found a scratch in the tank panel that the shop is responsible for
Im not a happy camper and I wonder if and what will be done to compensate me for this unfortunate series of events.
Anyone heard of this symptom before?
What would you ask for as reimbursement for the scratch?
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  #114  
Old 07-29-2009, 12:21 AM
Videoguy Videoguy is offline
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Re: K1300S Stalling?

No mention of the exhaust valve being related to the stalling anywhere. You would be the first, and the first to have a fault logged into the computer. Everyone else here including myself have not had any faults logged, and mine was in 3 times already. Hope that is the solution to your problem.
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  #115  
Old 07-29-2009, 07:34 AM
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allikanbe allikanbe is offline
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Re: K1300S Stalling?

The K12s stall and they don't have the exhaust valve. It just seems to me that BMW never fixed the K12 problem and the K13s have the same problem and it has nothing to do with the exhaust valve.
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  #116  
Old 07-29-2009, 09:48 AM
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Re: K1300S Stalling?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Turbocohen
its legit.. might be september/october.

That's great news, hopefully they will find the problem and be able to fix it. I was at my dealer yesterday and I had a chat with the service advisor. He indicated that he has had no other complaints at all about stalling K13's, either GT's or S's.....So I guess mine is the only bike this dealership has sold that experiences the stalling issue

I"m still trying to decide if I will goto Las Vegas and have the guys at Dynotech use my bike to create the PC-V for the K13S. I have 2 trips coming up so maybe after the SGR I'll take a trip to Vegas and get the PC V installed, unless BMW comes to the table with a fix or someone else beats me to the Vegas deal.
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  #117  
Old 07-29-2009, 11:52 AM
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Re: K1300S Stalling?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Volken
What would you ask for as reimbursement for the scratch?

No...but I'd ask/demand replacement of the part!
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  #118  
Old 07-29-2009, 11:54 AM
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Re: K1300S Stalling?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael1515
I was at my dealer yesterday and I had a chat with the service advisor. He indicated that he has had no other complaints at all about stalling K13's, either GT's or S's.....

They are taught that response in service training. He dun guuud!
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  #119  
Old 07-30-2009, 10:30 AM
Chaw704352 Chaw704352 is offline
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Re: K1300S Stalling?

Since we might have 2-3 months by the time we get a fix, I was considering installing a Power FRK module for the interim. I may take it off when the fix comes in. I know most of the reviews are positive. What do you guys think?
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  #120  
Old 07-30-2009, 11:14 AM
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Re: K1300S Stalling?

Just to provide an update on this from Seattle. After my bike locked up and went down, I received a call from BMWNA. The issue was escalated because of the accident.

They are sending a specialist/investigator out who is independent of the dealer. They indicated that this might take a week or two to get the guy out, but the bummer is that my bike is effectively quarantined until they get out.

I mentioned the multiple threads on this issue and BMW did say they were aware of stalling issues, but discounted the reports on this board saying that all the issues reported here could be unrelated. It does appear that they are monitoring this thread and similar threads on the boards.

I am hopeful that the "solution" that was mentioned above in the previous posts is indeed the root cause and that the specialist will be able to confirm that as well. Although I am hopeful - I am not optimistic.

In the meanwhile the dealership is providing diagnostic information back to the dealership around the ASC which I think is probably a red-herring.
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