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  #181  
Old 05-06-2016, 06:02 PM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bengarzy
Hi John, just spotted on your last video the the release rod has a wear dimple in its end showing that the slave cylinder ball has rotated and the flat is out of position...... This pushes the slave cylinder piston to the end of its travel and holds the clutch open slightly ( I know you know this, just trying to explain to other readers) which will cause clutch slip and fluid to be expelled from the reservoir.
I often wonder exactly why this flat was designed into the actuation as the ball onto a hardened rod is going to work better, specially if the release bearing were to fail, in that case with a flat on the ball it would try to spin the slave cylinder piston in its bore as the drag would be many times higher than the point contact of a ball..... On top of that no other manufacturer has a flat
On the push rod ball as it defeats the object entirely...... Stupid Germans😎😎

After fitting the Barnett pack in, noticed the pivot ball rotated so the flat was not positioned correctly, I believe that may have been my issue with the slippage. have not been on it to test theory, that will be this weekend.
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  #182  
Old 05-06-2016, 06:35 PM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Quote:
Originally Posted by OrganicMechanic
After fitting the Barnett pack in, noticed the pivot ball rotated so the flat was not positioned correctly, I believe that may have been my issue with the slippage. have not been on it to test theory, that will be this weekend.

That will do it, bet the clutch was a little heavy too.
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  #183  
Old 05-06-2016, 08:13 PM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

dont know really, rev match up and down the gear set. Only pull the lever at stop lights.
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  #184  
Old 06-01-2016, 04:59 PM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Quote:
Originally Posted by fourhundred4
Thank you Gary. I'm drawn by all this rather than pushed. Its what I enjoy. Odd but true. Been nutting problems with transmissions and similar out for forty years.

I finalised the design and ordered the sets of springs to rebuild both the 1200 and 1300 clutch baskets. Going to be hand made due to their heavy wire gauge. We also came up with changes to their ends so they don't damage themselves like the originals. Will be using the same wire as for engine valve springs.

I often use eBay listings to get a look at used parts and how they fair after some service. Came across this now ended listing for the complete clutch pack. The pictures show a gummed up polluted friction plate much like I found in this owners bike. Zoom in on picture number six. http://www.ebay.ie/itm/2006-BMW-K120...-/400936000759

Actual image I think - http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MTA2NVgxNjAw/z/0MYAAOSwBLlVeYGs/$_57.JPG

Pictures also confirm the pack does not have a the anti judder spring and modified friction plate of the later lamellar packs. I'm just about to fit one in the stock K1200R here so will share what I find later.
Hi John, having just unpacked and checked over a brand new basket assembly from BMW I can confirm the drive springs are around 2mm plus shorter than the slot they live in, that's 4 of the five with one slightly preloaded. This is exactly as all the well used ones I have worked on and top hat bushed to fit......... So where exactly does that leave us as the idle rattle was gone when sorted in this way and the transmission was better so why are they like this?
Also I have never completely eliminated the very annoying vibration between 4 and 6k that was always my main mission, strangely I can move it by a thousand revs but not get rid of it.
Time to move on and put it back to standard and say good bye to it I'm afraid.
Ben
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  #185  
Old 06-01-2016, 06:48 PM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

http://www.i-bmw.com/showthread.php?...3&goto=newpost
A suggestion to rule out your alternator drive.
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  #186  
Old 06-09-2016, 02:23 PM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Quote:
Originally Posted by fourhundred4
http://www.i-bmw.com/showthread.php?...3&goto=newpost
A suggestion to rule out your alternator drive.

Hey John.. just thought I should let you know, Clutch came back fast, got it in the bike that weekend, hadn't been able to get any miles on it until that past week or so, Starts much better not shake rattle and roll, shifts much better and the clutch lever lets me feather it better when I need the flexibility. Overall I am very happy with the results. Thanks again for the work you did.. Take care and hope others who have the problems I discussed talk to you and resolve their problems, great bike, dumb clutch engineering.

Guess that's what happens when premium companies try to walmart there way to greater profits.
Kris
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  #187  
Old 06-09-2016, 04:15 PM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Quote:
Originally Posted by fourhundred4
http://www.i-bmw.com/showthread.php?...3&goto=newpost
A suggestion to rule out your alternator drive.

404, are you still doing rebuilds? I contacted you a while ago...if you are interested or not please send me a PM.

Thanks,

Dan
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  #188  
Old 06-09-2016, 10:37 PM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Why do this by PM, just put an info add in the classifieds, contact, prices, etc. I know I want to send you my clutch, this Fall.
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  #189  
Old 07-25-2016, 02:18 AM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Hello.
I have a recently purchased 2011 K1300s, 33,000 km. End of s.n. is BZV73825*.

My bikes symptom is shudder on take off and disengaging is not 100 % (i see this when i put 1 st gear on and when shifting down when bike moves.
If I take off really slowly there is a little rattle also (is this a spring issue ?)
I think that clutch is not slipping, but i have only done a thousand with it.
Can anyone tell me, if forexample Barret disc-parts fit on my bike because it seems that 2011 has difference on clutch compared to earlier years?
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  #190  
Old 07-25-2016, 08:51 AM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

To address each symptom.

"My bikes symptom is shudder on take off" - Could be the plate pack is worn but BMW had sorted most of the dry premature wear out by this model year. This clutch pack will also have the anti chatter/shudder spring and special plate to accommodate it built in. If worn you can't get that replacement from Barnett.
Does it have the stock BMW slave cylinder? I've seen damage done by after market cylinders that make the return to stock cylinders shudder. And the same problem can occur if someone temporarily fitted the BMW cylinder with the ball face rather than the flat face of the slave ball to the push rod.

"Disengaging is not complete" - assuming no air in the cylinder or line which could be bled out I'd suspect the hub had grooved as below or the plates have began to gum and stick together.

"If I take off really slowly there is a little rattle also (is this a spring issue ?)" - Clutch basket damper springs not as good as they could be most likely. Rattle made worse by worn/dry clutch plate pack.

"I think that clutch is not slipping" - odds are the frictions have not worn enough in only 33,000 km to let it slip.

"Can anyone tell me, if for example Barrnet disc-parts fit on my bike because it seems that 2011 has difference on clutch compared to earlier years?" - Looking across all years of clutch, 1200 and 1300 I have not seen any difference in the splines of the hub where the steels fit or the grooves for the frictions where they fit in the baskets. No reason why the plates should not physically fit (swap between) any version of clutch. Just bear in mind many clutch packs will also have the anti chatter/shudder spring and special plate to accommodate it built in. If worn you can't get a replacement from Barnett. A pack without this may or may not give a refined enough take off and acceptable bite point.
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  #191  
Old 07-25-2016, 10:06 AM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems


IS there anyway you could supply a kit for us guys here in the states that would like to get a new set of plates from you? I can source the springs locally....
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  #192  
Old 07-25-2016, 02:33 PM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Hello and thanks.
I think that my bike is all stock and it has not been opened (clutch or anything else) ill probably open clutch next winter.
If the hub is grooved it will be quite a lot of €:s that BMW dealer will ask from me for parts?
when dismantling a electric wrench will probably do the job?
But on assembly its probably important issue to get right torgue to the nut and its necessary to lock the clutch with a tool?
In general is BMW dealer the only option for my clutch parts or where can i get them for reasonable price?
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  #193  
Old 08-14-2016, 04:15 PM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Hi, Can someone supply me with, or tell me where I can buy replacement (correctly fitting) springs and replacement rivets for my K1300s clutch basket.
I'm happy to order from anywhere worldwide.
Regards
John
Somerset, UK
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  #194  
Old 08-22-2016, 11:17 AM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

[quote=tjo]Hello and thanks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tjo
If the hub is grooved it will be quite a lot of :s that BMW dealer will ask from me for parts?

If by grooved you mean the face where the first friction plate runs, then in most cases it can me machined to as new. Then a new after market plate pack fitted. BMW only supply the whole lamellar pack which includes the hub and plates at 469 GB Pounds here in the UK. Most ever required for machining and plates to bring them up to scratch is 320. Often less if plates can be salvaged and just the machining is required.


Quote:
Originally Posted by tjo
when dismantling a electric wrench will probably do the job?

Fine because unlike when removing normal clutch assemblies the pressure spring is still clamping the lamellar pack together. Means you can rely on the mass of the hub, plates and basket to counter the torque reaction of the gun.


Quote:
Originally Posted by tjo
But on assembly its probably important issue to get right torgue to the nut and its necessary to lock the clutch with a tool?

I would suggest using the locking tool. Had a company making other BMW after market parts run a few off - http://www.cymarcbikeparts.co.uk/k-s...tool-194-p.asp


Quote:
Originally Posted by tjo
In general is BMW dealer the only option for my clutch parts or where can i get them for reasonable price?

There are a few after market suppliers of clutch plates. Only problem is I've not found one of them can supply the special plate that incorporates the anti chatter spring. And that's the very plate working with the spring and special seat ring that suffers with the most wear - responsible for poor bite point, slip, snatch and chatter at take off. Been making these for owners sending the lamellar pack here for rebuild when required but I'm not kitted out to make them on a grand scale.
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  #195  
Old 08-26-2016, 05:28 AM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

First, hats off to 404. He is truly a nittty gritty clutch engineer from the ground up. I apologize for sleep walking a few years and failed to post. My last post was when the clutch on my 2011 K13S failed at 9200 miles or so. That was back in Oct of 2014. I was so pissed at the $1,200 repair bill that I traded for a 2014 RT. That bike is truly dope (sorry NY slang) meaning the bees knees in every way. Cummuting, around town, highway mega miles, and canyon carver.
However, I truly miss the ballistic missle called the K13S. The quickshifter combined with 148hp at the crank is truly epic. So I'm biting the proverbial bullet and diving back into a 2015 K13S Motorsport. That color scheme is akin to the Mona Lisa; pure beauty. So damn clutch fixes and the like. Beauty and performance is like viagra, always needing "the fix".
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  #196  
Old 08-31-2016, 04:05 PM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

OK so here I am, half way through a ride through Europe and finally it seems like my K1300s clutch is slipping. Rolling on in 4th or 5th gear, scarily during overtakes, the engine will suddenly rev like I've pulled the clutch in, and then it will grab and I'm accelerating again.

Considering I have just clocked 34,000 miles (54,718 km) this is disappointing but not unexpected since I was told 4 years ago by the BMW dealer servicing my bike that the clutch was "nearing it's end" at 24,000 miles (38,624 km) I think an extra 1,000 miles (1,609 km) is not bad going. My only concern is; will I make it back to London with it in this condition with another 5 days of riding ahead of me?! I'm crossing a few fingers and toes...
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  #197  
Old 08-31-2016, 04:09 PM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Peter

That doesn't sound like your clutch.
A clutch either slips or it doesn't.
That's more like your gearbox has the dog-slot problem.
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  #198  
Old 09-01-2016, 02:13 PM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterD
OK so here I am, half way through a ride through Europe and finally it seems like my K1300s clutch is slipping. Rolling on in 4th or 5th gear, scarily during overtakes, the engine will suddenly rev like I've pulled the clutch in, and then it will grab and I'm accelerating again.

Considering I have just clocked 34,000 miles (54,718 km) this is disappointing but not unexpected since I was told 4 years ago by the BMW dealer servicing my bike that the clutch was "nearing it's end" at 24,000 miles (38,624 km) I think an extra 1,000 miles (1,609 km) is not bad going. My only concern is; will I make it back to London with it in this condition with another 5 days of riding ahead of me?! I'm crossing a few fingers and toes...
That should of course be an extra 10,000 miles! (16,093 km)....
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  #199  
Old 10-16-2016, 07:32 AM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

So can anybody tell what clutch basket springs is needed???
Suppose to be the same as on some other motorcycle which has officially changable springs... What model that would be?
Please share some info.

At least could someone give the dimensions of the springs if the model is such a big secret?
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  #200  
Old 10-17-2016, 05:01 PM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

First I must stress there's much more to rebuilding these clutch baskets than attending to the springs.

To the best of my knowledge no business sells anything like these springs off the shelf. I've never seen the manufacturers of any clutch basket encourage their servicing by supplying spare parts. To get round this I took a nearly new set and wrecked set to a specialist spring manufacturers. Showed them a basket with the problem and how they worked as interface between gear and aluminium basket to explain everything as best I could. I asked if they could make replacements that would hopefully not get wrecked so quickly. Took them a few weeks and the final cost was well... They drew them up and recorded what they had done. They now refer to this when I order further batches.

The complete clutches, baskets and hubs, I recondition always get new springs.
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  #201  
Old 10-18-2016, 03:13 AM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Quote:
Originally Posted by fourhundred4
First I must stress there's much more to rebuilding these clutch baskets than attending to the springs.
...
The complete clutches, baskets and hubs, I recondition always get new springs.
Ignoring international post fro/to Oz, what's your usual turnaround time?
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  #202  
Old 10-18-2016, 07:45 AM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Thank you for your question.

Usual is three days maximum to rebuild a Clutch Basket. Three days to recondition a Clutch Hub (lamellar pack) and improve lubrication. Both together often completed in as little as four days.

I make up a bespoke set of clutch plates for the hubs (lamellar packs) that BMW built the anti shudder spring into. Predominantly the 1300 engines. Quite a few owners have sent a set they bought from Barnett or other suppliers which they could not use. I've built these in as part of the new set once the hub is reconditioned. Then supplied the special anti shudder spring and its special friction plate. It can add three days to the above if the exact plate required is not here on the shelf.

These times are achieved where owners are keen to see them back and get the bike on the road. Please appreciate there's nothing to gain in me chasing my tail when a bike is laid up for the owners "off season" or winter. That said, all work is completed within two weeks of arrival and on its way home.

Other information that might be of use - I had a company here in the UK make up some of the special clutch hub holding tools. Some owners felt BMW were not so willing to supply their own version direct to the public. These are essential and the starting point what ever investigations or work owners are contemplating on their clutch. Please note I'm not connected with this business - just asked if they wouldn't mind.

http://www.cymarcbikeparts.co.uk/k-s...tool-194-p.asp
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  #203  
Old 10-18-2016, 09:07 AM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

I ride k1200r. 40k km is done. Having it from nearly new and not riding hard most of the time.

Im still happy how the clutch is working- no slipping, the lever still has plenty of range and works as it should.

But in N position and with clutch lever released it ratles bad. If i pull the lever- it stops. As i said- no slipping, no big vibrations while riding. If to rise RPM to ~1700 or higher- rattling dissapears.
I suspect it must be only a springs. That ratling is anoying. Can live with it as bike runs fine, but want to fix anyway.

My plan is to:
-change springs in basket only;
-to update the centering pin to a latest version from k1300r- (21527714017)- should fit without modifications if info on forums are correct;
-drill an extra hole on a inner hub for clutch extra lubrication.
Once i will be inside im planning to:
-inspect the clutch plates- change them if needed.
-inspect the bearings of basket- change if needed.
-inspect the oil pump chain tension- adjust if needed.

The only stuff i can not find a normal info about- the springs and these 3 rivets and how to press them back. If rivets can be done by a metal works shop, so the springs are still big question.. I still can not believe some other springs from some other bike can not be used.. Do not know the dimmensions of them, but have anyone tried to take a look at car engine valve springs? Might be something similar could be found there..

Could anybody give the dimensions of the springs??? PLEASE!!!

Also i was reading clutch replacing manual and bmw says to use some tools of which i do not understand the purpose at all... Could somebody please explain what this guy is for: 83302152908 ???? I suspect its just for centering... something... and preventing some kind of damage to... something... while trying to wrench and unwrench the center bolt?? Please explain someone who understand this..

Also do i really need to lock engine with a pin 83300401482 when removing clutch??? some say yes, some say no, but how it really is???

If i understand correctly so i do only need this guy (clutch basket holding tool) 83300401778 and thats all???
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  #204  
Old 10-18-2016, 10:54 AM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Hello icecolder

I've done the financial and risk sums over and over regards rebuild of the 1200 clutch baskets. Someone writes every week asking for a kit of parts to rebuild their clutch basket and its taking up my time replying "with sorry but not good sense".

It would be close to two thirds the modified price for a kit to include the special parts required (some have to be made and can't be bought) and specialist tool with instructions to follow the complex process. That's just parts to rebuild the basket alone. Then depending on the stock tools in the workshop there might be a need to buy a further 35 of parts locally. Even assuming the use of a lathe and pillar drill exist for free there's still no guarantee of a fixed clutch basket. Takes know how from experience.

This thing runs at very near half engine speed and in a very hostile, high stress environment. I feel it would be reckless of me to sell a kit that could lead so many into expensive or irreparable trouble.

I rebuild baskets for other engines. Been doing that for over six years for owners all over the globe. Those stock units go annoyingly faulty after just a few thousand miles. A business came up with parts and instructions that were promoted heavily. Their baskets and parts broke up over time. They got a bad reputation. Their name changed over night. I just don't risk my personal brand like that.

Remove just your slave cylinder and pull the centering pin out with a magnet. If its the short one without a tail in the shaft that's what you have to keep. Only way to improve the oil flow if you see its poor is to increase the size of the hole in BMW's bodge of an aluminium plug that's in the end of the shaft. Bore in the early shafts is not large enough for the later pin.

Your plates will very likely be gummy, black and look horrible. Faces of the aluminium hub and pressure plate might have deteriorated beyond whats good.

You need a thin wall socket and that holder tool for the hub to be undone easily and without dismantling the lamellar pack in the bike.

You need a pin to lock the generator/starter drive scissor gears together or the basket will never come out. Even with it you need a special jiggle of the parts to get it free. You don't need to lock the crank with BMWs special pin but it would help a first timer to perform the special jiggle better to get the basket out.

Watch you don't crush the oil pump drive gear as it goes back in. Its impossible to see if the six drive dowels line up so only done by feel.

You can try all the springs under the sun. If they are not purpose made they will quite likely break up.

Sorry if this seems harsh.
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Old 10-18-2016, 12:08 PM
icecolder icecolder is offline
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

fourhundred4, what worst can happen? At worst i will have to buy a new part. Why not to try.

About the tools- going to order them but still does not understand do i need all of them.

Its deffinately does not need alternator gear lock as people are doing this with a simple peace of wire. Will go the same way.

Ok, so the engine lock pin is optional.. I think i will buy it just in case.

And the clutch basket wrench (that O ring with a long handle) is 100% needed, thats ok and clear.

But what is this stuff: 83302152908 ???? I read repair manual and they are using it but i really do not understand why??? Could you please explain? Google does not gives any info about it..

And about center pin- lets say i have that 22mm long short "nozle". I seen a buletin telling it should be replaced to a normal pin but you say latest pin from 1300 will not fit.. How to understand this?
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Old 10-18-2016, 12:45 PM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Not to take Fourhundredfour's voice, but think more closely what might happen if your clutch fails by breaking, not wearing out.
It may not slip, the clutch can lock up.
Then there is where all that debris will go.
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  #207  
Old 10-19-2016, 11:54 AM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

There is 3 versions of the pin....

Aluminium plug (oil nozzle, like the service bulletin) in transmission shaft / clutch pin short (22mm and no tail)

Aluminium plug removed from transmission shaft/ 2nd generation pin with one slot (pin is approx 40mm long)

Aluminium plug removed from transmission shaft / 3rd generation pin with 2 slots (pin is approx 40mm long)

In my 05 k1200s i had the aluminium plug in the shaft.
After removing it, my 2nd generation pin would not fit beyond the position of where the plug used to sit. There is a tiny ridge inside the gearbox shaft.
Since i machined the pin down to bottom of the slot, and only left the last 5mm intact, i used sandpaper to make it fit. Whatever you do, dont hammer it in......
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  #208  
Old 10-23-2016, 01:00 AM
jaredwilson jaredwilson is offline
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Just pulled my clutch (and transmission) today. Clutch plates were in slightly better shape than I had expected. Original clutch in my 2006 K1200S with 22k miles: Plug had three flats ground into it, but no oil channels. There were green o-rings on some of the friction plates as has been discussed earlier in this thread. Haven't measured the remaining friction material yet, but was in better shape than some of the pictures 404 showed earlier in this thread and were actually coated in oil. The springs on the back of the clutch drive gear are extremely loose which explains the chatter at idle with the clutch out - issue #1 in 404's thread. The friction plates have worn grooves into the basket fins - not sure if there is anything that can be done to remedy this.

During disassembly, the basket would only move out about an 1/8" and get stuck. The pin tool that adds tension to the anti-chatter gear wouldn't go into the gear far enough to activate the anti-chatter gear. This could be why the basket kept sticking. I ended up removing the spacer around the trans shaft to give a little room to maneuver the basket out of the housing. Likely going to be painful getting it back in.







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  #209  
Old 10-25-2016, 12:29 PM
icecolder icecolder is offline
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Question for these, who hold the cluch basket open at the moment:
what are the dimmensions of the springs?
-The length (correct one which fills up the slot of the basket just fine);
-The outer diameter of the spring;
-Thickness of the spring wire?

Asking because going to send a request to the local spring manufacturer and ask do they have an ability to manufacture springs with a same or close characteristics, but need a dimmensions (in milimetres would be best). Help please!
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  #210  
Old 10-29-2016, 01:11 PM
Eugen Eugen is offline
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

A few words of additional praise for John (fourhundredfour). He's just rebuilt the clutch from my K13R (2013). Whilst the plates on mine were fine - it appears that BMW gave up on home-grown items and fitted what is effectively a Japanese clutch pack in the last iterations of the K13 - the rebuilt clutch basket and refinished clutch hub have made the world of difference. No more clatter at idle, better gear selection and an absence of low speed awfulness.

I'm grateful to John for travelling all the way over to take the basket out - a man of infinite patience and a proper engineer. Best money I've spent on the bike. I can't recommend him enough - thanks John!

Trevor
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Old 11-11-2016, 08:58 AM
icecolder icecolder is offline
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Just sent my clutch basket springs to springs manufacturing company. Today got the answer that they inspected and tested them and there is no big deal to manufacture similar characteristic springs. Also asked to make them ~10% harder. The interesting part- to manufacture 3 kits the price is just slightly higher than to manufacture just 1. So ordered 5 kits to make it cheaper even more. Should hold them in about 3 weeks. Will leave two of them for myself and 3 kits will go to ebay. BMW can ki$$ my a$$ with their "buy the whole basket" offer. Have a nice day.
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Old 11-11-2016, 10:18 AM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Fourhundred4 - what a joy to find a true 'old school' bloke who really knows his stuff, and works with the intelligence and precision of a surgeon. Thanks so much for your fantastic contribution to the site. Kettle always on if you find yourself in East Yorkshire. David Mc.
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Old 11-19-2016, 07:00 PM
alfadave1 alfadave1 is offline
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

my manufacturers warranted 2014 k1300r with 8700 miles reminds me of my old Honda 900 ...pull clutch in engine is smooth and quite ....let clutch out and you can feel the vibration and rattle
spoke to my local bmw dealer today and they stated they all do that...I said that they didn't when new!!! the engine is not even bed in with miles its done and to be honest my 900 started rattling with 20k on it and wasn't engineered as a modern bmw(sucks up lol)....he said get it up to them so a technician can look at it (I know where this is going)I know hes gonna say they all do it !!!
whats the best way to handle this...I know that my description of how bad it is will be totally other end of scale ...
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Old 11-19-2016, 08:37 PM
fourhundred4 fourhundred4 is offline
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

A new clutch basket from BWM is 787 GB Pounds. Fitting and a load of other small items could add up to 150 on top. To avoid this be real polite yet lean on them as hard as you can to have it replaced under warranty. Remind them that you shouldn't be facing that sort of expense with one of their bikes to put it back to where it was when new. Bear in mind the basket swap probably costs BMW themselves less than a third of that so its not like you are asking for the earth to have them sort it out. Remind them you bought their premium product yet after such a short time and mileage you are very dissatisfied with BMW's quality. And its within their power to restore your faith in their products and service. And drop it in that you are stuck or trapped with them for a fix because they would not condone you taking the bike outside their network to have it sorted out independently while under their warranty. Which puts you off considering extending it if that's likely to be offered. The message is you stop spending any more with them until its sorted.

If renewed then be prepared that it might be back to vibrating and rattling after the same sort of mileage. Particularly if you ride the bike how its intended.
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Old 11-20-2016, 08:18 AM
alfadave1 alfadave1 is offline
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Quote:
Originally Posted by fourhundred4
A new clutch basket from BWM is 787 GB Pounds. Fitting and a load of other small items could add up to 150 on top. To avoid this be real polite yet lean on them as hard as you can to have it replaced under warranty. Remind them that you shouldn't be facing that sort of expense with one of their bikes to put it back to where it was when new. Bear in mind the basket swap probably costs BMW themselves less than a third of that so its not like you are asking for the earth to have them sort it out. Remind them you bought their premium product yet after such a short time and mileage you are very dissatisfied with BMW's quality. And its within their power to restore your faith in their products and service. And drop it in that you are stuck or trapped with them for a fix because they would not condone you taking the bike outside their network to have it sorted out independently while under their warranty. Which puts you off considering extending it if that's likely to be offered. The message is you stop spending any more with them until its sorted.

If renewed then be prepared that it might be back to vibrating and rattling after the same sort of mileage. Particularly if you ride the bike how its intended.
thanks for prompt reply
my local dealer knows of some of my background modifying/tuning my previous bikes(supercharged my last one) and they know that I don't take no for an answer in other words they cant fob me off with they all do it. as this means to me there is a huge issue with the engineering/design!!...ive stated to them regards sorting it .they can have the bike over the winter period
im off till Wednesday ..touch wood I can get bike up to them weather permitting
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  #216  
Old 11-20-2016, 08:47 AM
Chris4Fingers Chris4Fingers is offline
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

I had to replace the clutch cable (hydraulic Hose) in Poland. The engineer there told me that using the wrong fluid will dissolve the rubber on the clutch plates. Could this be the problem?
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  #217  
Old 11-20-2016, 12:01 PM
fourhundred4 fourhundred4 is offline
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Quote:
Originally Posted by alfadave1
thanks for prompt reply
....my local dealer knows of some of my background modifying/tuning my previous bikes(supercharged my last one) and they know.....

Watch out BMW don't tell you its down to your abuse of the clutch with perhaps wheelies and drag starts like BMW told so many other owners with low mileage rattling or squawking, slipping shot clutches. But of course the vast majority of those owners have not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by alfadave1
this means to me there is a huge issue with the engineering/design!!...ive stated to them regards sorting it .they can have the bike over the winter period

There are two main issues with the design.

Plate pack - Most bikes I've had in bits with this sort of clutch and power output have more plates than the K1200 and 1300 engines have. That shares the load out over a greater friction surface area so not worked quite so hard at the engines limits. Also means less wear day to day. Their clutches also last the life of the bike because they have less chance of being damaged with the slightest bit of exuberant behavior. And they got the lubrication of the clutch right on day one. Rather than just as the bikes were on the run out in their final years of production.

Clutch Basket (sounds like your problem) - Again most bikes clutch baskets I've had in bits with this sort of output use six heavy coil springs in the torsion damper that's built into the back of the clutch basket. BMW only use four main springs and they are not so heavy made. The better designs have overload protection stops so drop clutch starts and other clutch behavior that overloads the damper can't wreck the springs by taking them past their elastic limit. The BMW's springs are not sufficiently protected from overload. They get shorter over time and eventually the clutch basket start to make that horrible clatter at idle.

PLEASE NOTE THIS IS A VERY SIMPLISTIC VIEW OF THE PROBLEMS WITH THESE TWO MAIN ELEMENTS OF THE CLUTCH. There's much more involved than simply new plates and changing the springs in the basket to make them behave something like. I rebuild one complete clutch a week. Sometimes two.

The dealer will love a bike in over winter. Keeps their staff in a job over the slack period and can choose when they do the work. Just a question of who pays at the end. And of course there's not so much warranty left at the end if its still not right.
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  #218  
Old 11-20-2016, 01:29 PM
alfadave1 alfadave1 is offline
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

ill keep throwing it back at them until its sorted
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  #219  
Old 11-28-2016, 04:09 PM
fourhundred4 fourhundred4 is offline
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

I was contacted last week by an owner trying to improve his gear change. He'd put the poor change down to a dragging clutch (not completely disconnecting engine from box) when selecting first to set off and for other changes up and down the box while moving. An early bike it had gummy BMW plates and the short thrust adapter. No tail on its back end which went into the end of the gearbox shaft to let oil feed past it and out to the clutch. Instead it had the very early bikes aluminium plug in the end. The owner drilled three holes in the aluminium plug to bring about what would appear to be about the same oil flow as the later arrangement with grooves in the thrust adapters tail.

I hope this YouTube movie I made using older and newer parts for comparison will explain the subtleties of improving the oiling but not too much that it creates its own drag - bit like a torque converter for those who understand auto transmissions.

https://youtu.be/efDzOO65X8w
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  #220  
Old 11-28-2016, 04:13 PM
Katsumoto Katsumoto is offline
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Youtube says the vid is private...can't play (>_<)
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  #221  
Old 11-28-2016, 04:23 PM
fourhundred4 fourhundred4 is offline
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Quote:
Originally Posted by Katsumoto
Youtube says the vid is private...can't play (>_<)
Working for me now. Sometimes a delay. Thank you.
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  #222  
Old 11-28-2016, 05:05 PM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Thank you for taking the time to make and post this video. Great information.
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  #223  
Old 11-30-2016, 03:50 AM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Hey!

Can anyone tell me if a K1300S clutch basket will fit on a K1200S?

Thinking about buying a new one, and to it would be easier just to upgrade it to a K1300 basket.
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  #224  
Old 11-30-2016, 07:54 AM
fourhundred4 fourhundred4 is offline
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Quote:
Originally Posted by screwy
Hey!

Can anyone tell me if a K1300S clutch basket will fit on a K1200S?

Thinking about buying a new one, and to it would be easier just to upgrade it to a K1300 basket.

Yes it will fit. For parts commonality across the range that is what BMW will supply for the 1200 engines today and have for some years now. Be warned though that you will also need a new oil pump drive sprocket and the sleeve that the clutch basket and oil pump sprocket with bearing for them to run on. Reason is they changed from a ring of six round dowels to drive the oil pump to two ears. Best way to describe it so owners don't mix the two. Can make it a very expensive option. Approaching 1000 for the major parts here in the UK.

I have not changed a sprocket over in person, preferring to recondition the 1200 basket to avoid the changes, but have read that in some cases the sump needs to be removed if the oil pump chain will not come off the sprockets. Perhaps someone with experience of this can comment with more detail?

Which problems are you trying to cure. Reports and my experience are that the 1300 baskets get the same chatter at idle as the others. The vibration while decelerating on the over run might have been addressed though.

Some workshops/parts counters will also try to sell you the later 1300 lamelar pack (clutch hub parts and plates assembly as shown in my video posted a few days ago) to go with your new 1300 basket. Its not essential and adds nearly another 50% to the costs. I think they suspect in most cases that it will also be in poor condition. Another 470 GB Pounds here for the major parts.

A friend was faced with the above a few years ago. Lamelar pack near worn out and basket chattering awfully at idle. We sorted it out by rebuilding the original basket, opening up the oil routes in and reconditioning the lamelar pack. I have done the same for many others since.
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Old 11-30-2016, 08:23 AM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

http://content32-foto.inbox.lv/album...jpg?1480508111
This is the basket i bought.

Thanks for the quick reply!

I will have the full set. Including the oil pump sprocket.
Will have to pull out the old oil nozzle, i have the first version, that is 2 seperate parts.

My basket has some deep grooves in it, so the bike is hard to get into neutral.
And also the needle bearing in the basket is looking bad.
I bought the item really cheap (290$) from ebay so if it will not be a big loss, if it is in bad shape. Maybe i can combine the old and the new one, just drill out the rivets and put together one out of them both.

The friction plates on my K1200 are very good, so will try to use them in the K1300 basket.
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Old 11-30-2016, 09:32 AM
fourhundred4 fourhundred4 is offline
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

All looks OK. Check if your thrust adapter has the tail on it. Can do this before you start the main job by pulling it out through the hole left when you remove the slave cylinder. If not a tail (a lot less than your 72mm one shown then I think you will find the end of your shaft is plugged by the aluminium some call a nozzle.
If so your new adapter will not go in place of the plug. You can still run with the old adapter and a 1.5 to 2 mm dia hole in the old aluminium plug.

The problem finding neutral might be in the box or down to clutch drag. Any drag is most likely down to gummy plates from poor oiling and the ultra smooth finish on the steels. The grooves make more room for the plates to move about but if sticking they need cleaning or replacing.

Forgot to mention. The needle bearing is bad in all of them but the very latest 1300 engine. Up until then it was a cheap drawn cup bearing with so much free play you will not believe. Sort of thing in a swing arm pivot bearing. Amazingly it does not wear as hardly ever runs other than when the lever disconnects the two halves of the clutch. I suspect it is responsible for some of the bikes vibrations though.
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  #227  
Old 11-30-2016, 10:16 AM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Quote:
Originally Posted by fourhundred4
All looks OK. Check if your thrust adapter has the tail on it. Can do this before you start the main job by pulling it out through the hole left when you remove the slave cylinder. If not a tail (a lot less than your 72mm one shown then I think you will find the end of your shaft is plugged by the aluminium some call a nozzle.
If so your new adapter will not go in place of the plug. You can still run with the old adapter and a 1.5 to 2 mm dia hole in the old aluminium plug.

The problem finding neutral might be in the box or down to clutch drag. Any drag is most likely down to gummy plates from poor oiling and the ultra smooth finish on the steels. The grooves make more room for the plates to move about but if sticking they need cleaning or replacing.

Forgot to mention. The needle bearing is bad in all of them but the very latest 1300 engine. Up until then it was a cheap drawn cup bearing with so much free play you will not believe. Sort of thing in a swing arm pivot bearing. Amazingly it does not wear as hardly ever runs other than when the lever disconnects the two halves of the clutch. I suspect it is responsible for some of the bikes vibrations though.

Yes, i have the one without the tail. Already checked that. But i found this service bulletin, that shows how to pull out the "nozzle" and put in the new thrust adapter in there. Probably i mixed up the thrust adapter with the tail with the modified nozzle. I thought the thrust adapter with tail replaces the nozzle.
So...i will just re-use the old adapter. Should i drill the 2mm hole in the center of the nozzle?

I think the problem with the neutral is the clutch drag, but will check as i move on.

Yeah, the needle bearing is bad, i agree, must be the cause of the excess vibrations a have on deceleration, at least i think so
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  #228  
Old 11-30-2016, 05:55 PM
fourhundred4 fourhundred4 is offline
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

screwy asked Should i drill the 2mm hole in the center of the nozzle?

Yes. Your only way to get more oil out of the shaft. The current plug could be the earlier one or later recommended in that bulletin you read if BMW attended to it during warranty.

To avoid getting metal from the drilling I suggest you drill and tap it without breaking through. Use bolt in the thread to pull it out. Then drill through 2 mm while its out of the shaft. Then gently tap it back in.

Take note of the last youtube video I posted warning of over oiling with the older clutch hubs that don't leak the excess away through the six slots for the holding tool.
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  #229  
Old 12-01-2016, 02:26 AM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Thanks! Will start working on the basket soon
Hope i don`t mess anything up.
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Old 12-02-2016, 06:35 AM
fourhundred4 fourhundred4 is offline
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Best of luck.

"Will start working on the basket soon" Do you mean the job to change it out or are you looking to work on the new 1300 basket before fitting?
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Old 12-02-2016, 07:29 AM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Quote:
Originally Posted by fourhundred4
Best of luck.

"Will start working on the basket soon" Do you mean the job to change it out or are you looking to work on the new 1300 basket before fitting?

Will check the K1300 basket carefully, if it is all good, will just put it on, and save the K1200 for spare parts.
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  #232  
Old 12-08-2016, 04:09 AM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Got the basket. Everything is great, except the springs
They are very loose

Have already changed the ones on my K1200S by myself, and cured the idle rattle problem, don`t want to do it again.
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Old 01-05-2017, 02:52 PM
icecolder icecolder is offline
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

As it is winter im not in hurry and slowly repairing mine. 2 weeks ago received custom springs :P +1mm longer than stock slots. 1 set went to a friends 1300S- and yesterday got a message that he finally assambled it and very happy about the result. So today was a garage day for me too Placed them- a little pain to make them sit in place as they are longer, but sits in place very tight as they are longer by 1 mm :P Can not be even slightest slope as they are under the compression from the start. Hope mine 1200r will be as silent as a friends 1300s now. Tomorrow will transport basket to clutch repair shop for placing rivets and hope to find some time during weekend to put it all back in bike
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  #234  
Old 01-13-2017, 12:18 PM
icecolder icecolder is offline
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

One more set of springs just went to forum member for his k1300s.

If anyone interested- one more set of springs still available for sale. It is the last one. Im not going to manufacture any more. If anyone interested- PM.

(Photo to compare: at sides standing springs are newly made, correct length, and these standing in a center is stock removed from my own basket after 45k km)
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  #235  
Old 02-02-2017, 11:17 AM
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panason1c panason1c is offline
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

K1300s year... 2011.... 35,000 miles
Hi, I plan to fit a Barnett clutch pack and also new, longer, replacement springs in my clutch basket (springs kindly supplied by 'icecolder')
When I have the basket dismantled, is it worth renewing the main centre needle roller bearing that the basket spins on, or do these bearings seldom cause a problem??
I currently dont have any clutch problems other than a slight 'rumble' that is felt through the bike when the engine is idling and clutch lever released... (if I pull the clutch lever in, the 'rumble' disappears)
Cheers
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  #236  
Old 02-02-2017, 01:01 PM
icecolder icecolder is offline
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Member "screwy" already successfully installed thous springs too and beside that he changed bearing also. You could contact him about procedure and if it is not very complicated and if the bearing by itself is not to expensive, so why not to change while you are holding it opened?

I havent changed mine, but now thinking i had to just for the peace of mind..
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  #237  
Old 02-02-2017, 01:36 PM
fourhundred4 fourhundred4 is offline
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

A guide to spotting likely bearing issues I posted over in another thread but just as relevant here.

Picture of the typical damage you will find when the bearing has deteriorated. Notice the four segments of the thrust face of the gear are heavily rippled. This occurs due to oil cavitation. The constant rocking of the gear draws oil into and out of the gap between this thrust face and thrust washer. It tries to make the oil move at a frequency so high that it cannot move quickly enough so over time the steel thrust faces become deformed like this.

Please note - There is always a hint of this on the thrust faces but this one shows severe rocking of the gear has been going on for a long time. Also check the thrust face on the other side where the gear passes thrust to the oil pump drive gear. Most likely you will see the same telltale ripples in what was once a perfectly flat machined face.
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  #238  
Old 02-02-2017, 05:21 PM
icecolder icecolder is offline
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Fourhundred4, can this also happen because of not proper engine oil was used, or oil was used to long? can this be avoided using thicker oil?
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  #239  
Old 02-03-2017, 04:01 AM
Bengarzy Bengarzy is offline
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Quote:
Originally Posted by fourhundred4
Yes it will fit. For parts commonality across the range that is what BMW will supply for the 1200 engines today and have for some years now. Be warned though that you will also need a new oil pump drive sprocket and the sleeve that the clutch basket and oil pump sprocket with bearing for them to run on. Reason is they changed from a ring of six round dowels to drive the oil pump to two ears. Best way to describe it so owners don't mix the two. Can make it a very expensive option. Approaching 1000 for the major parts here in the UK.

I have not changed a sprocket over in person, preferring to recondition the 1200 basket to avoid the changes, but have read that in some cases the sump needs to be removed if the oil pump chain will not come off the sprockets. Perhaps someone with experience of this can comment with more detail?

Which problems are you trying to cure. Reports and my experience are that the 1300 baskets get the same chatter at idle as the others. The vibration while decelerating on the over run might have been addressed though.

Some workshops/parts counters will also try to sell you the later 1300 lamelar pack (clutch hub parts and plates assembly as shown in my video posted a few days ago) to go with your new 1300 basket. Its not essential and adds nearly another 50% to the costs. I think they suspect in most cases that it will also be in poor condition. Another 470 GB Pounds here for the major parts.

A friend was faced with the above a few years ago. Lamelar pack near worn out and basket chattering awfully at idle. We sorted it out by rebuilding the original basket, opening up the oil routes in and reconditioning the lamelar pack. I have done the same for many others since.

The 1300s oil pump drive sprocket is bigger than the 1200 with six pin drive (faster oil pump) so a new longer chain will be needed minimum, don't know if the pump sprocket is also bigger though.
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  #240  
Old 02-03-2017, 12:29 PM
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panason1c panason1c is offline
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Just ordered a new needle roller bearing and bush for the basket from my local BMW dealer, (these two items MUST be renewed together, according to the parts man) I've not removed the clutch basket yet but at 35,000 miles I guess it will benefit from them.

Cost 52 in total (British pounds)
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