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"KRS/GT" Technical Q&A K1200RS/GT Technical Questions/Answers

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View Poll Results: Engine Rear Main Seal / Clutch O-Ring Failure?
No Failure 0-10k miles 10 4.07%
No Failure 10-20k miles 34 13.82%
No Failure 20-30k miles 31 12.60%
No Failure 30-40k miles 26 10.57%
No Failure 40-50k miles 15 6.10%
No Failure 50-60k miles 7 2.85%
No Failure 60-70k miles 6 2.44%
No Failure 70-80k miles 1 0.41%
No Failure 80-90k miles 2 0.81%
No Failure 90-100k miles 1 0.41%
No Failure at > 100k miles 3 1.22%
Failure at 0-10k miles 12 4.88%
Failure at 10-20k miles 8 3.25%
Failure at 20-30k miles 15 6.10%
Failure at 30-40k miles 21 8.54%
Failure at 40-50k miles 17 6.91%
Failure at 50-60k miles 14 5.69%
Failure at 60-70k miles 15 6.10%
Failure at 70-80k miles 4 1.63%
Failure at 80-90k miles 3 1.22%
Failure at 90-100k miles 0 0%
Failure at > 100k miles 1 0.41%
Voters: 246. You may not vote until 'registered'. Please go here: http://www.i-bmw.com/register.php

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  #1  
Old 01-10-2009, 01:59 PM
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Question Engine Rear Seal/Clutch O-Ring Mileage Poll

K1200RS/GT ONLY


Mileage for Rear Engine Main Seal / Clutch O-Ring Survival or Failure

The goal is to determine if and when seal/o-ring failures occur.

If you sold OR totaled OR lost your bike without a failure, please select the mileage at that time under "No Failure."

If you have more than one failure, please select the mileage for the first failure only.

This is a public poll.

Thanks in advance!

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  #2  
Old 01-10-2009, 03:44 PM
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Re: Engine Rear Seal/Clutch O-Ring Mileage Poll

Thanks for the poll I've been wondering about this issue myself. Mines at 27,750 Miles
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  #3  
Old 01-10-2009, 05:09 PM
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Re: Engine Rear Seal/Clutch O-Ring Mileage Poll

Seal replaced at 18,000 miles for Debbie and 35,000 for me.
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Last edited by Lee : 01-10-2009 at 11:28 PM.
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  #4  
Old 01-10-2009, 06:06 PM
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Re: Engine Rear Seal/Clutch O-Ring Mileage Poll

bit over 14k and no problems for me.
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Old 01-11-2009, 10:16 PM
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Re: Engine Rear Seal/Clutch O-Ring Mileage Poll

No failures to date on my '02. Unfortunately I don't get to put many miles on the scooter these days. At 16k there are no bad signs. Just changed the final drive and tranny oil after 10K- both looked about as clean going out as when filled. A few, very few, metal filings on the magnetic drain plugs - synthetic last time - synthetic this time - BMW brand 75-140.
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Old 01-13-2009, 04:42 PM
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Re: Engine Rear Seal/Clutch O-Ring Mileage Poll

My RS is at 82350 miles and no failures. Believe me, I check under the engine very carefully at every oil change. No leakage so far!
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Old 01-13-2009, 05:18 PM
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Re: Engine Rear Seal/Clutch O-Ring Mileage Poll

Quote:
Originally Posted by beemer1
My RS is at 82350 miles and no failures. Believe me, I check under the engine very carefully at every oil change. No leakage so far!

Good miles. What oil do you use? How often do you change it?
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Old 01-14-2009, 08:20 PM
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Re: Engine Rear Seal/Clutch O-Ring Mileage Poll

I have removed the clutch at 37,000 miles and it is fried. NO OIL LEAKS.
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  #9  
Old 01-14-2009, 09:23 PM
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Re: Engine Rear Seal/Clutch O-Ring Mileage Poll

Clutch slave leak at ~22k
Rear engine seal at 42k
Rear enging seal at 112k
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  #10  
Old 01-15-2009, 06:41 PM
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Re: Engine Rear Seal/Clutch O-Ring Mileage Poll

Zero fluid leaks or parts failure of any kind @ 56K.
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  #11  
Old 01-18-2009, 04:29 PM
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Talking Re: Engine Rear Seal/Clutch O-Ring Mileage Poll

2001 Checker needed repair at 6,730 miles and doing well.

2004 Zebra, not missing a lick
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  #12  
Old 01-18-2009, 07:01 PM
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Re: Engine Rear Seal/Clutch O-Ring Mileage Poll

53k clutch started slipping, leading up to that there was oil seeping out the seam. Thought I would escape it because of the way we can ride all day here and not idle causing excessive heat. Brought the bike to the dealer and made a deal to trade in the RS and Tiger for an '09 GS.
Things happen for a reason.
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  #13  
Old 01-24-2009, 12:57 PM
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Poll Result Conclusions as of 1/24/09

Go to: http://www.i-bmw.com/showthread.php?t=19868
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  #14  
Old 02-19-2009, 08:09 PM
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Re: Engine Rear Seal/Clutch O-Ring Mileage Poll

On my 2000 K1200RS, rear seal @49K, rear seal @69k. The poll would only allow 1 posting
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  #15  
Old 02-19-2009, 08:22 PM
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Re: Engine Rear Seal/Clutch O-Ring Mileage Poll

Tom,

If you haven't used the poll yet, please use the shorter of the two, that is 20 k.

Lar

Quote:
Originally Posted by tom48
On my 2000 K1200RS, rear seal @49K, rear seal @69k. The poll would only allow 1 posting
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  #16  
Old 02-20-2009, 03:12 AM
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Re: Engine Rear Seal/Clutch O-Ring Mileage Poll

Just a hair over 70,000 nothin yet..
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Old 05-21-2009, 03:30 PM
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Re: Engine Rear Seal/Clutch O-Ring Mileage Poll

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Fllash
I have removed the clutch at 37,000 miles and it is fried. NO OIL LEAKS.

Mine was the same at 36,000miles, clutch 1/2 worn to BMW minimum spec.

An oil leak and an oiled up clutch just waiting to happen.

I'm glad I did mine.

As far as I'm concerned, the clutch O ring wasn't fit for purpose, although a leak hadn't occured.
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Old 05-21-2009, 03:31 PM
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Re: Engine Rear Seal/Clutch O-Ring Mileage Poll

double post deleted
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  #19  
Old 06-02-2009, 06:03 AM
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Re: Engine Rear Seal/Clutch O-Ring Mileage Poll

Oil is seeping between what I would call (because of my automotove-centric experience) the bell housing and the engine block. For purposes of the poll, I'm gonna count that as a failure and it began to be noticable at about 30k miles.

However, the oil seepage is extremely modest. I know of the seepage only because of a very light accumulation of crud at the junction between cleaning the bike. There are no other symptoms: clutch works as it always has, with no slipping up to red line in any gear. (OK, redline in 1-4, WOT in 5 & 6 'till I run short of cajones.)

I'm much opposed to fixing things that ain't Baroque so has its time come -- or not?

And to ask the inevitable 'Car Talk' question, what happens (eventually) if I do nothing? Slipping clutch? Oil on the garage floor?

Thanks!
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Old 06-03-2009, 09:23 PM
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Re: Engine Rear Seal/Clutch O-Ring Mileage Poll

That oil seal is like a ticking bomb. You don't know when it will leak so bad that:
The clutch will slip
The oil leaking is getting on the rear tire and it slips
all the above and you run out of oil and the engine fails.

If the clutch is still in good shape (not worn out) you maybe able to just clean it off when you replace the seals.
But if you wait till it slips and slips then the clutch is fried a new clutch assy will cost you about $600. (parts Only)
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Old 06-03-2009, 09:57 PM
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Re: Engine Rear Seal/Clutch O-Ring Mileage Poll

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Fllash
That oil seal is like a ticking bomb. You don't know when it will leak so bad that:
The clutch will slip
The oil leaking is getting on the rear tire and it slips
all the above and you run out of oil and the engine fails.
LOL!
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  #22  
Old 08-26-2009, 09:09 AM
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Re: Engine Rear Seal/Clutch O-Ring Mileage Poll

On my 2004GT the seal leak and the dealer fit it under warrenty but charge my for a clutch at a cost of 550.00 dallors. I still thinK the dealer rip my off. I like the bike but no sure of BMW in the future. I had about 10 jap bikes with no problems.
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Old 08-28-2009, 11:23 PM
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Re: Engine Rear Seal/Clutch O-Ring Mileage Poll

Quote:
Originally Posted by majicdoor
On my 2004GT the seal leak and the dealer fit it under warrenty but charge my for a clutch at a cost of 550.00 dallors. I still thinK the dealer rip my off. I like the bike but no sure of BMW in the future. I had about 10 jap bikes with no problems.

My wife got a new clutch when her seal was replaced under warranty. The shop said the clutch had too much oil on it to clean off and gave her a new one on warranty.
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Old 08-29-2009, 05:16 PM
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Re: Engine Rear Seal/Clutch O-Ring Mileage Poll

Quote:
Originally Posted by majicdoor
On my 2004GT the seal leak and the dealer fit it under warrenty but charge my for a clutch at a cost of 550.00 dallors. I still thinK the dealer rip my off. I like the bike but no sure of BMW in the future. I had about 10 jap bikes with no problems.

You usually don't have to replace the clutch, just the clutch plate, if even that. The housing rarely has problems from what others have posted.

I think the plate is just over $100.
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Old 05-07-2010, 04:24 PM
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Risk of Failure by 50 to 60k miles....

Taking a crude look at the data, there appears to be a 36% failure rate by the time you reach 50-60k.

The non failure group beyond this mileage is included in the calculation.

Note that a few bikes have gone well beyond 60k without failure.
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  #26  
Old 05-18-2010, 09:24 AM
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Re: Engine Rear Seal/Clutch O-Ring Mileage Poll

just a sugestion...but you might want to make that a mileage/age of bike poll. My '98 taxi only had 5k miles on it, but it sat for almost 10 years so when I bought it and started riding the heck out of it all the seals started leaking.
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Old 05-18-2010, 10:16 AM
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Re: Engine Rear Seal/Clutch O-Ring Mileage Poll

I see 0% survival at the 100K mile mark. I'd like to be the first. Now at 109K miles and I'm pretty sure the slave cylinder if failing. Losing fluid and starting to show at tranny/eng junction. No major slipping or other horrible stuff yet. Too expensive to just haul off and have it fixed so probably ride it until we get the AAA taxi ride!
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Old 05-28-2010, 10:51 AM
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Re: Engine Rear Seal/Clutch O-Ring Mileage Poll

My clutch is slipping abit and I'm seeing oil accumulating on my centerstand. The oil drips on the muffler and its burning smell is noticable especially after long rides. I see from other posts that it is probably the oil seal. Is this correct? And if so, about how much should I expect to pay for this repair? These bikes are great but extremely expensive to maintain. I spend a lot of money and time because I do all the maintenance myself. Is there light at the end of the tunnel when it comes to maintenance or are these bikes money pits? I've owned 6 bikes before and I can't remember having so many maintenance issues or problems. I love my bike but thinking about jumping ship when it comes time to buy again.
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  #29  
Old 06-28-2010, 10:55 PM
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Re: Engine Rear Seal/Clutch O-Ring Mileage Poll

On my '01 KRS, the rear seal started leaking at about 60k. However, I'd switched to synthetic oil at ~50k. I went back to dino oil and the leaks disappeared just in time to sell the bike. Clutch was still okay. YMMV

If you think the '01 RS was a problem, try the '07GT. Problem after problem!!
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Old 06-29-2010, 10:13 AM
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Re: Engine Rear Seal/Clutch O-Ring Mileage Poll

Quote:
Originally Posted by K_Flyer
If you think the '01 RS was a problem, try the '07GT. Problem after problem!!

I thought those were nice bikes and decided to by the RS first, for a whole lot less money, to see if I would prefer it and never looked at the new GT's again, now the S's have my attention a bit but I would keep the RS just the same.
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Old 06-29-2010, 10:19 AM
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Re: Engine Rear Seal/Clutch O-Ring Mileage Poll

Quote:
Originally Posted by heinzdog
These bikes are great but extremely expensive to maintain. I spend a lot of money and time because I do all the maintenance myself.

I do all my maintenance myself and have put 20K miles on mine, just the usual oil and filers with the required maintenance schedules, what else do you have going on that costs so much? The only down side I have had on the bike is it eats tires faster than the other 4 I owned but then it does things the others could not even think about.
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Old 06-30-2010, 08:12 AM
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Re: Engine Rear Seal/Clutch O-Ring Mileage Poll

Quote:
Originally Posted by bayoubmw
I do all my maintenance myself and have put 20K miles on mine, just the usual oil and filers with the required maintenance schedules, what else do you have going on that costs so much? The only down side I have had on the bike is it eats tires faster than the other 4 I owned but then it does things the others could not even think about.

I spent about $300 in parts recently on things like: front brakes, spark plugs, air filter, fuel filter, oil filter, anti-freeze, final drive oil, transmission oil, brake fluid and engine oil. It eat tires- I've spent about $600 a year on (3) rear tires. Now, it needs a rear oil seal and new clutch. That's going to cost me no less than $1400. The seal is probably due to the fact that the previous owner did not ride it enough and the seals dried up so that is probably not an engineering problem. I think they are extremely expensive bikes but anything German is expensive. The upside is that it is a pleasure to ride and should last me a long time. Downside is that now I want a S1000RR but want to keep the RS for touring.
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Old 06-30-2010, 09:51 AM
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Re: Engine Rear Seal/Clutch O-Ring Mileage Poll

Quote:
Originally Posted by heinzdog
Downside is that now I want a S1000RR but want to keep the RS for touring.

OK, I follow all that, some I think is just normaloid costs for what you get. I just did a good read on the S1000RR

http://www.thebikergene.com/sportsbi...-2010-s1000rr/
OK, I want one too, man what a bike.

I had been wondering why the S prices were falling, now I know. But if you think the RS has a price tag to run what to do you think this one will be like.
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Old 07-01-2010, 09:48 PM
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Re: Engine Rear Seal/Clutch O-Ring Mileage Poll

Quote:
Originally Posted by heinzdog
I spent about $300 in parts recently on things like: front brakes, spark plugs, air filter, fuel filter, oil filter, anti-freeze, final drive oil, transmission oil, brake fluid and engine oil. It eat tires- I've spent about $600 a year on (3) rear tires. Now, it needs a rear oil seal and new clutch. That's going to cost me no less than $1400. The seal is probably due to the fact that the previous owner did not ride it enough and the seals dried up so that is probably not an engineering problem. I think they are extremely expensive bikes but anything German is expensive. The upside is that it is a pleasure to ride and should last me a long time. Downside is that now I want a S1000RR but want to keep the RS for touring.

I forgot to mention the fuel line connectors that went bad too. That cost me around $150. Not to mention $1000 I had to pay for a lawyer and fine but that's a seperate story.
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Old 08-23-2010, 10:13 PM
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Re: Engine Rear Seal/Clutch O-Ring Mileage Poll

I noticed the oil grunge line at the engine-clutch seam 2000-3000k ago, now have 35,600k no clutch slip. How long before clutch slips? Thinking of drilling and tapping a small hole in bottom of the clutch housing to see if much oil drains. Opinions please.
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  #36  
Old 07-21-2011, 10:05 AM
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Re: Engine Rear Seal/Clutch O-Ring Mileage Poll

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee
Seal replaced at 18,000 miles for Debbie and 35,000 for me.

I traded my bike in with 89,000 miles. Last month I was at the shop and saw my old bike parked outside the service area with the bottom of the engine, drive shaft, rear wheel all oily, plus a puddle under the bike. Turns out the seal let loose shortly after the bike was sold.
I felt bad about it, but not as bad if the seal would have leaked shortly before I traded.
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Old 11-05-2011, 06:59 AM
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Re: Engine Rear Seal/Clutch O-Ring Mileage Poll

Mine just ticked over 47,000 km (29,000 miles) on my '99. Clutch has started slipping and it's now leaving a little puddle of oil after every ride (about the size of 2 quarters).

I guess it's a trip to the agent. I don't know any competent independents in HK I would trust with this job.
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  #38  
Old 11-05-2011, 01:15 PM
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Re: Engine Rear Seal/Clutch O-Ring Mileage Poll

Just having mine serviced for new alternator. It is an 03 with 86,000. The history of the bike is that after an active 1st year, it sat for years without being ridden. During that dormat period the rear seal leaked and it and the clutch was replaced. I then acquired the bike 50 miles and 18 months later. The bike since has been ridden regularly with 78,000 miles over the last three years. While having the bike apart I had a new clutch plate in and the O ring and seal checked. No leaks, BUT, the O ring was cracked/split and the rear seal was very stiff. So it was just a matter of time, shorter than later, that it would be leaking.

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Old 11-05-2011, 08:07 PM
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Re: Engine Rear Seal/Clutch O-Ring Mileage Poll

Here's a question for those more technically minded than me.

Does the clutch start slipping because of loss of pressure? I'm not sure of the mechanics of it. Just wondering as the seal failure, oil leak and slippage all seem to occur at the same time.
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Old 11-05-2011, 08:34 PM
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Re: Engine Rear Seal/Clutch O-Ring Mileage Poll

The clutch grips when there is a) friction material left on the clutch disc b) The material that is there actually has friction c) The clutch parts are true and not distorted. Think of the clutch disc as your ham in the ham sandwich. The disc (the ham) is held under constant pressure by the clutch diaphragm (bread!) which is a kind of dish shaped spring providing the pressure.

The clutch slips when a) The friction material is worn away down to the metal backing plate which has no friction. b) The clutch disc material itself has got contaminated and loses its friction properties. c) The clutch parts normally running flat and true, have been overheated and become distorted, reducing the full contact area of the friction material. Often this condition is associated with 'clutch drag' and difficult shifts, as the clutch no longer disconnects properly.

Although some have ridden their clutches hard and suffered burnouts, the most likely problem is b) where oil has entered the clutch assembly and severely reduced the friction of the clutch disc. Oil mainly comes from an O ring which BMW used in their design to seal off the engine cavity and stop oil passing through. A secondary problem may be the main shaft oilseal - which again keeps oil back in the engine cavity. Another problem of contamination can be caused by failure of the clutch slave cylinder seals. This allows hydraulic fluid to travel into the clutch assembly and cause contamination.

At the first sign of clutch slip, many may not realise it or ignore and carry on riding. Over time, the clutch will slip more and overheat. The overheating will eventually cause heat distortion of the clutch parts, even less friction and more overheating.

If repairs are started as soon as any clutch slip is felt, it is possible to escape with a teardown, seals and a new clutch friction disc. If the slipping condition is left, a teardown, seals and the whole clutch assembly may be required.
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  #41  
Old 11-05-2011, 10:40 PM
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Re: Engine Rear Seal/Clutch O-Ring Mileage Poll

Mines now at 42991 miles. no change as dry as a popcorn fart.
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Old 11-06-2011, 04:54 AM
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Re: Engine Rear Seal/Clutch O-Ring Mileage Poll

I don't think it's just mileage that takes out the seals but consistently high engine temperatures due to climate, Summer idling in traffic, plus high revs clutch use.

Most like me have removed the O ring and found it dry, cracked and fragmenting.

Here's a quote I found:
Quote:
If you like damp, cool weather, an overcast sky, and a mild climate, Seattle is the place for you.

That doesn't sound like Arizona or California. That's the problem with polls. They can concentrate on mileage, but exclude local conditions or the way a bike is ridden. That's also the problem for engine designers who should be factoring in these 'operating environments'.

I will bet that clutch O ring failures in Germany are a lot lower, especially for bikes cruising their autobahns and racking up high miles with fewer clutch changes.




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  #43  
Old 02-06-2012, 09:15 PM
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Re: Engine Rear Seal/Clutch O-Ring Mileage Poll

45,000 Kms...in the West. Clutch side! No leaks!

But yes poor bike was in Vancouver for the first 32,000 Kms of its life.

Not anymore...!

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Old 02-06-2012, 09:41 PM
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Re: Engine Rear Seal/Clutch O-Ring Mileage Poll

Hard to believe that little o-ring can cause that much grief and require as many hours as it takes to take the bike half a part.

Does anyone have a definitive list of part numbers for the parts needed to make this repair?

Cheers -Brad
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Old 02-07-2012, 12:39 PM
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Re: Engine Rear Seal/Clutch O-Ring Mileage Poll

Quote:
Originally Posted by HK1200
Hard to believe that little o-ring can cause that much grief and require as many hours as it takes to take the bike half a part.

Does anyone have a definitive list of part numbers for the parts needed to make this repair?

Cheers -Brad

I guess I could but....there is (almost) always some stoopid little (or big) thing that will get you.

You are probably much better off taking everything apart and inspect. Then send in the "parts list".

Viton O-rings, there and there, you are looking for a 19x4 mm.
http://www.epm.com/index.htm
http://www.mdmetric.com/prgde3b.htm#oring
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Old 03-20-2012, 11:03 AM
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Re: Engine Rear Seal/Clutch O-Ring Mileage Poll

What's also frustrating, is that stupid O ring isn't even holding back oil under pressure.
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  #47  
Old 03-20-2012, 07:54 PM
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Re: Engine Rear Seal/Clutch O-Ring Mileage Poll

i voted 20-30k no leak, but

upon removal of the clutch oring, it was cracked. just not as bad as seen above. there was a little bit of flexibility to the oring also.
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Old 03-21-2012, 05:44 AM
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Re: Engine Rear Seal/Clutch O-Ring Mileage Poll

Mine was similar, but I literally had to dig it out in pieces.
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Old 05-06-2012, 04:45 PM
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Re: Engine Rear Seal/Clutch O-Ring Mileage Poll

I'm sure I just cursed myself by posting this! But no leaks or clutch issues at 43,775miles
I've done the final drive pinion bearing and seal, replaced pivot bearings,and a whole lot of tires! Still has to be the most pleasure I've gotten out of any bike...hands down! So, I'll keep on doing what it takes keep "her" in good order!
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Old 06-07-2012, 12:21 PM
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Re: Engine Rear Seal/Clutch O-Ring Mileage Poll

Quote:
Originally Posted by thirsty 1
Thanks for the poll I've been wondering about this issue myself. Mines at 27,750 Miles

now at 46000 no leak
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  #51  
Old 06-09-2012, 06:11 PM
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Re: Engine Rear Seal/Clutch O-Ring Mileage Poll

Doing mine now...120,00 miles, o ring brittle but still intact, rear seal gone, clutch was soaked but still had a few (very) miles left on the disk. All other parts were still fine.
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Old 07-30-2012, 11:14 PM
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Re: Engine Rear Seal/Clutch O-Ring Mileage Poll

At 40,000 miles mine went on my '99 K1200RS. Even taking in my loose drive, it was a $500 repair for parts and labor.
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  #53  
Old 03-17-2013, 08:38 PM
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Re: Engine Rear Seal/Clutch O-Ring Mileage Poll

Quote:
Originally Posted by svineski
At 40,000 miles mine went on my '99 K1200RS. Even taking in my loose drive, it was a $500 repair for parts and labor.
It sounds like you had your final drive repaired rather than the rear main seal and clutch.

NCS

edit: So after posted I saw this was an old post... oh well.
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Old 03-18-2013, 03:00 PM
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Re: Engine Rear Seal/Clutch O-Ring Mileage Poll

Got my 99KRS with 24K on the clock and had the rear main seal leak along with leaky transmission input seals. Did the rear main, new clutch seals, clutch friction disk, and got a new clutch slave to boot. Installed a Viton o-ring instead of the BMW standard one courtesy of Beecher. Drilled weep holes in the proper areas to detect next leak early. Should be good for a long time.

George
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  #55  
Old 03-29-2013, 11:06 AM
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Re: Engine Rear Seal/Clutch O-Ring Mileage Poll

My automobile experience says the higher rpm you maintain the quicker you replace your rear main seal. My BOSS-302 and Gurney-Weslake 305 engines (both redlined at 9000 rpm) ran through them much quicker than the M-B 240-Diesel (350,000 miles on oem seal) that turned only 4000.
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Old 03-09-2014, 08:46 PM
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Re: Engine Rear Seal/Clutch O-Ring Mileage Poll

i noticed the weeping at about 26k, the clutch started slipping around 30k. no oil drips, but did find quite a bit of build up of grime around the engine and transmission.
replaced clutch, main rear seal/o-ring, pivot bearings, swing arm bearings, distribution hose and final drive seal. also as a preventive measure replaced the trans seals, clutch slave cylinder and brake lines.
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  #57  
Old 08-21-2018, 03:47 AM
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Re: Engine Rear Seal/Clutch O-Ring Mileage Poll

Hey Lance, nice to see others doing preventative maintenance. Vox is a huge supporter of preventative maintenance and I went in and did the big O-ring/output seal before it leaked. Saved me a new clutch and allowed me to do it when it suited me over winter. Did all the usual items you went for too, giving complete peace of mind.
Been down my way fishing lately? The number of people fly fishing in New Zealand South Island rivers has gone ballistic along with tourism in general. It will never be the same as it was when you were here a few years back. Pity.
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