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"K13S/R" Technical Q&A K1200S/R Technical Questions/Answers

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  #1  
Old 03-05-2013, 03:20 AM
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Cool Upgrading Brake System - K1300S - questions?

Hello all! I've finally had it with these substandard brakes we have. Now before you go whining that these are the best brakes ever and that I have air in my line please understand that if you ride in my territory (SoCal canyons and mountains) at my pace (spirited) with this heavy bike you WILL get brake fade. Every spirited K13S rider I have ever ridden with (5 of them) had had the exact same thing happen to them: trail braking into aggressive corners and one haul down form straightaway speeds and your brakes are cooked. The fluid boils and the lever goes back to the bar. Scary.

So lets please not debate the problem. Suffice it to say that I am now interested in increasing the amount of heat the braking system can handle before fade.

So what do I look at, exactly?

Fluid (but what kind? Fully synthetic?)
Pads (sintered? Metallic? Race pads?)
Spacer (do these really work to limit heat transfer between the pad and the pistons?)
Fully floating front rotors (does this really help my heat problem or is it just a deflection issue?)

I've searched all over but every rotor company seemed to have skipped the K1300S. Any of you gurus and engineer types able to point me in the right direction?

thanks in advance!

JT
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Old 03-05-2013, 05:59 AM
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Re: Upgrading Brake System - K1300S - questions?

I'm putting this in my bike when I get home

http://www.evolutionracewerks.com/?q=node/109

and here is a link to others discussing your problem

http://www.bmwk1200s.com/forum/viewt...hp?f=3&t=16465

There was someone on that thread who put in the fluid I gave the link to and has had no more fade problems, he rides the same types of roads you do.
From some research on the web it seems that Dot4 and Dot5.1 are interchangeable however Dot5 is not as it is a silicone based fluid while Dot4 and Dot5.1 are glycol based and can be swapped. The Dot5.1 has a higher boiling point and will perform better under the higher heat loads imposed upon the fluid by our bikes greater weight and the beautiful twisty road you have shown us here Be aware that glycol based fluids absorb moisture so a yearly flush with new fluid is a great idea to maintain your brake system.

So it seems to me if this is a condition you see more than others due to your location, riding style, etc., or just want the extra feeling of security then swapping to Dot5.1 and some HH pads should do the trick for you.
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Old 03-05-2013, 06:13 AM
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Re: Upgrading Brake System - K1300S - questions?

Hell - Sounds like you really like to use those stoppers.

I reckon your best solution would be to hang around the paddock with a socket set when the World Superbikes come to the US, and sneak into Marco Melandri's pit when no-one's looking.

If his brakes can outbrake a works Aprilia, I'm sure they'll haul up you and your K outside your neighbourhood McDonald's.
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Old 03-05-2013, 07:24 AM
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Re: Upgrading Brake System - K1300S - questions?

I'm thinking out loud here - does my RR use the same fluid as my KS? I think they do - so here is my question - I ride my RR pretty darn aggressive and have never felt any fade - the only thing I feel is how fast the bike is scrubbing off speed. Can do this all day long.

Now my KS is new to me have ridden it once about 20 miles so I can't comment. It is however needing the recall for the sponge for the front brakes. But I did have an 07 K1200S that again I rode mostly at a good pace and don't recall brake fade. Again your conditions may be different - just saying I don't remember it.

I will say that I doubt you run your KS as hard/fast as I run the RR - making an assumption here - and those brakes are fantastic.

Waiting to see what others here have to say.
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Old 03-05-2013, 09:19 AM
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Re: Upgrading Brake System - K1300S - questions?

I'm thinking the reason for this is the fact that the DOT4 fluid is glycol based so it readily absorbs moisture. Because of this characteristic you should flush your brake system every year to prevent too much moisture degrading the performance of the fluid.

When the bike is new the fluid is too and you don't see the fading of the brakes, once a year or so goes by then you start to see the fluid failing. The stock fluid should work(not as well as the high zoot stuff DOT5.1) as long as it is kept fresh.

At least that's what I've thought from the research I did awhile back on this subject.
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Old 03-05-2013, 11:55 AM
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Cool Re: Upgrading Brake System - K1300S - questions?

No, I probably don't run my K any harder than your RR - but come ride with us and we'll know for sure!

More importantly, I don't run my K any harder than my R12S on the same roads which had essentially the same brake system as my K. But your RR has a dif brake system and weighs 120lbs less.

As to using the binders, no, I do not believe I use them excessively for the types of canyons we do. Yes, I carry 70% through the curves (have to leave healthy safety margin out here), yes, I accelerate out of them, yes, I set my corner speed aggressively at times, especially when coming into downhill 25mph turns on an otherwise 55mph marked road. None of this would phase my R12ST, my R12S but the K bike is good for a dozen curves or one hard downhill decel and then the brakes are toast for the next 15-20 curves where I have to set corner speed by compression braking alone.

So... The bike has less than a year and 8000 miles on its last flush. I will use a higher temp synthetic for sure.

How about new rotors? Are there any choices or is the Lucas rotor sold by wonderlich the only option?
http://www.wunderlichamerica.com/mot...S/8481079.html

JT
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Old 03-05-2013, 12:12 PM
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Re: Upgrading Brake System - K1300S - questions?

I believe the S1000RR rotors are the same bolt spacing as the K13 so you could go with a set of Brembo HP rotors which are 5.5mm vs the 5mm of the stockers, which would increase the heat handling capability of the rotors. You can also try Carbonne Lorraine pads from Beemer Boneyard. Years ago Ken Zeller from Evoluzione put a set of AP Racing 6 piston calipers on the K12. It's a bit spendy but here's a link to the article in Motorcyclist Magazine. http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/mo...t/viewall.html
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Old 03-05-2013, 12:25 PM
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Re: Upgrading Brake System - K1300S - questions?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jaytee
Fluid (but what kind? Fully synthetic?)

ALL brake fluid is "fully synthetic"! DOT 3, 4 and 5.1 (the only brake fluid you can use) are all made of 100% glycol ethers, which are inherently a synthetic chemical. Sure.... some brands make a big deal claiming to be "synthetic", but that's just sucker bait.
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Old 03-05-2013, 12:35 PM
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Re: Upgrading Brake System - K1300S - questions?

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Originally Posted by RFW
ALL brake fluid is "fully synthetic"! ..... some brands make a big deal claiming to be "synthetic", but that's just sucker bait.
So why do the "synthetic" ones have much higher boiling points?

I don't care what they call it, as long as it works.
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Old 03-05-2013, 01:12 PM
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Re: Upgrading Brake System - K1300S - questions?

It's hard to think you're riding harder than some of us that track the big bike and routinely brake from 130+mph and for every corner, lap after lap after lap... every 5-10 seconds.

Brakes that become spongy and a lever that comes back to the grip means one thing. water in the system. Period. (Brake fade with a firm lever and decreased braking power is another thing...)

Without water in the system, there would be none of this.


IMO, you are barking up the wrong tree. Bigger/thicker rotors, more aggressive pads don't matter if the heat in the brake fluid causes the water to boil.

Why do you think your system is different and what have you done to remedy it already?
edit- i see you stated your last flush was about a year ago and 8000 miles. Many people, myself included flush the system yearly. There is also the possibility that the one that did it did not do a good job...

This bike is no heavier than a zx-14 or a busa. We are not talking a 600-1000 pound goldwing or harley. It should not experience brake fade with one stop from speed.
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Old 03-05-2013, 01:24 PM
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Re: Upgrading Brake System - K1300S - questions?

Quote:
Originally Posted by cabnfvr
So why do the "synthetic" ones have much higher boiling points?
They're pretty much the same. The only difference is some formulations absorb a bit less moisture (LMA= low moisture absorption). Moisture starts lowering the 'dry' boiling point for obvious reasons, down to the 'wet' boiling point, which happens at a maximum of 3% moisture content. Dot 4 has a higher boiling point than Dot 3, and lower than Dot 5.1. But Dot 4 is all you need. Just change it regularly (once a year), especially if you live in a humid climate. Those racing obviously need something better, but racing fluids are overkill for the street IMO. Good day folks.
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Old 03-05-2013, 01:42 PM
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Re: Upgrading Brake System - K1300S - questions?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jaytee
No, I probably don't run my K any harder than your RR - but come ride with us and we'll know for sure!

More importantly, I don't run my K any harder than my R12S on the same roads which had essentially the same brake system as my K. But your RR has a dif brake system and weighs 120lbs less.

As to using the binders, no, I do not believe I use them excessively for the types of canyons we do. Yes, I carry 70% through the curves (have to leave healthy safety margin out here), yes, I accelerate out of them, yes, I set my corner speed aggressively at times, especially when coming into downhill 25mph turns on an otherwise 55mph marked road. None of this would phase my R12ST, my R12R but the K bike is good for a dozen curves or one hard downhill decel and then the brakes are toast for the next 15-20 curves where I have to set corner speed by compression braking alone.

So... The bike has less than a year and 8000 miles on its last flush. I will use a higher temp synthetic for sure.

How about new rotors? Are there any choices or is the Lucas rotor sold by wonderlich the only option?
http://www.wunderlichamerica.com/mot...S/8481079.html

JT
JT:
One day I hope to get out your way. I've been invited out but due to work schedules never seem to get there. Please I don't care if I'm way better or way worst than you as far as riding goes - I was simply trying to give you a reference - I know the RR is lighter and the brakes are better - I was simply going on the brake fluid theory - and again not sure but I think they use the same stuff. And I'm a rider that changes fluids all the time - so your problem may be simply contaminated brake fluid.

The fact that your other bike is not experiencing this and you ride them the same way in the same conditions does lead me to think initially flush the fluid.

Good luck.
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Old 03-05-2013, 01:50 PM
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Re: Upgrading Brake System - K1300S - questions?

Can I throw a suggestion/question at you....?? Rather than spending a shitload of money on new hardware... have you tried letting the engine do more of the braking?? Keeping the bike in a lower gear as to stay OFF the binders... While I'm no Valentino Rossi.. I have done my fair share of corner carving, track riding, and I live in the mountains..I used to be fast.. Now I'm too old for such childish pursuits. Before the Mongol hordes showed up to spoil the parade, I was a regular at the Tail of the Dragon at Deals Gap. About the curviest, most challenging road this side of the Mississippi.. In my prime I could ride the entire length at full tilt .. balls to the wall.. all 311 curves and only hit my brakes maybe 3-4 times.. Basically by keeping the bike in a higher gear and letting the engine do all the braking.. No brake fade. I admit.. the lighter the bike the easier that is to do and the K1300S is a pig, but I've rarely experienced brake fade on my K1200S.. Maybe once or twice in 6 years..

The California Superbike School used to teach a technique of riding the track (or your favorite stretch of road) WITHOUT using your brakes.. Not sure if they still do it, but I'll bet they do. It's scary at first.. Essentially...it teaches you quickly to pay more attention to what gear you are in or you run off the tarmac... Also.. any time you hit the brakes.. you upset your suspension... with engine braking that doesn't happen as much allowing smoother transitions from off to on throttle.. If you are on your brakes so often as to produce fade... this is something you might want to practice... .. Just sayin..
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Old 03-05-2013, 01:50 PM
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Re: Upgrading Brake System - K1300S - questions?

Quote:
Originally Posted by cabnfvr
So why do the "synthetic" ones have much higher boiling points?

Simple.... Different formulations of the various types of glycol ethers that make up the formulation of any particular brand of brake fluid.

NOTHING in a bottle of brake fluid is naturally derived. The entire contents are synthetic.

My point is simply that the term "synthetic" on a bottle of brake fluid, is entirely meaningless.... all brake fluid is made of 100% man-made chemicals (and therefore by definition is "fully synthetic").

The only way to tell a better brake fluid, is by its boiling point.
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Old 03-05-2013, 02:53 PM
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Re: Upgrading Brake System - K1300S - questions?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pirate
The California Superbike School used to teach a technique of riding the track (or your favorite stretch of road) WITHOUT using your brakes.. Not sure if they still do it, but I'll bet they do. It's scary at first.. Essentially...it teaches you quickly to pay more attention to what gear you are in or you run off the tarmac... Also.. any time you hit the brakes.. you upset your suspension... with engine braking that doesn't happen as much allowing smoother transitions from off to on throttle.. If you are on your brakes so often as to produce fade... this is something you might want to practice... .. Just sayin..
Jerry:
They still do that in the first level for sure. They spend a lot of time going over it.
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Old 03-05-2013, 03:10 PM
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Re: Upgrading Brake System - K1300S - questions?

James, if you and your friends are riding that hard on the street, maybe its time to acquire a track bike and take all that speed and energy to the track, where the risks are way lower and the returns way greater. I know that the older I get, the faster I was.

As for aftermarket brakes, you could take a look at what is offered by Galfer. I believe one of our speedier members, Kneedragger, swears by their products, you can look here, at the Pashnit site, where they sometimes have "group buys" http://www.pashnit.com/product/galfe..._pads.html#top or the www.Galferusa.com site itself.

Stay safe.
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Old 03-05-2013, 06:06 PM
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Cool Re: Upgrading Brake System - K1300S - questions?

Thank you all for the few constructive replies. To address some other replies, I will say the following:

There is less than 8000 miles on the current flush, which was flushed twice in one month to specifically eliminate moisture or air in the line as a possibility. This was done WAY less than a year ago in August. The problem of premature lever fade (to be differentiated from brake-fade, as jcw pointed out) was present before and after each of the flushes, one done by me, one done by the dealer.

No, I do not ride particularly unusual for these canyons. In the last 10 years of bombing these canyons on a regular basis on 6 different bikes I have NEVER had the brake problems that I have on this bike. I have also never had a bike both this heavy and this powerful. For those who regularly run twisties (or track) on this bike without the problem understand also that it is NOT the technical twisties that boil the brakes- it's the sweeper-straight-downhill hairpins that wreck them. These are all over here in our crumbly SoCal mountains and hills. Those who ride them know exactly what Im talking about. A bike this powerful picks up a LOT of speed between sharp corners and all of it's not-inconsiderable weight then has to be hauled down before the next 20MPH switchback.

And I am not riding any more agressively than my usual: like I said, 70% in the corners to have lots of headroom for animals, bikes, rocks in the road on blind turns, accelerating out of the corners agressively (why else have a K13S???), and sometimes, especially at the end of long straights, braking agressively into very very sharp turns, often down shifting 3 gears just before tip-in. You will have to take my word for it that I am not an overly aggressive rider and take my chances, hopefully, in a sane, conservative manner.

Look, I understand most of the physics (if not all the engineering) that goes into this. I am riding a much heavier bike (like 2-up on my other bikes) that generates a LOT more energy (175hp compared to 110hp). Virtually all that inputed energy between corners has to scome out as heat through the brake system. For whatever reason the K13S (and yes, I am saying this happens on ALL K13S that I have experience with in the same conditions) does not handle that heat as well on stock pads and stock calipers and stock fluid and stock rotors as compared with other bikes in the class. I get it.

So (unless someone can disabuse me of my fuzzy comprehension), there are really only two ways to deal with the problem: 1) the whole system has to be able to handle more heat before raising the fluid to boiling temps or 2) the system needs to be able to ablate the heat faster between turns.

The parts of the system are: Rotor (and configuration), Pads (and spacer), Calipers (and pistons), brake lines and fluid. All of these things absorb and give up heat at differeing rates, no? And my symptom of boiling/frothing brake fluid is most likely caused by too much heat for the boiling/frothing point of the particular fluid that is in my system, no?

Soo... despite my trying to head all this off with my initial disclaimer, we are still at my original question:

If I *WANT* to spend the money to upgrade this braking system for the express purposes of handling more heat prior to fluid failure, what exact parts and pieces would be recommended?

In expected cost order:
Fluid - is one 5.1 better than another brand 5.1)?
Pads?
Spacers?
Rotors?
Calipers?

I can find very little information on the K13S where these are concerned and hence the reason for the post.

Anyone else have any direct experience with upgrading the brake system on the K13S?

Thanks again!

JT
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Old 03-05-2013, 06:42 PM
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Re: Upgrading Brake System - K1300S - questions?

There are two other possibilities from what I had already mentioned.

1. The ABS system itself. I noticed that my K12S had a much softer lever feel and a squish that my GSA or any of my Hondas don't have. I've had the system bled by the dealer but the lever squish remained. So I'm eliminating it when I have a chance to get into the bike. As the GSA and the K12/13 have the same Magura axial pump master cylinder it could come down to the ABS modulator which I think are different (not sure though) or the associated plumbing. Since BMW has had plumbing issues with the airbox on the early k12's I would not be surprised.

2. The master cylinder. When I put on a Magura 195 Radial master cylinder the lever feel stiffened up quite a bit but it still has a tiny bit of a squish when I squeeze the lever that my other bikes don't have. You might try a m/c rebuild first.

As for fluid, I put in ATE Superblue so I could tell when the new fluid got through the calipers but I'm not completely sure I got it through the modulator.

So per your request:

Fluid-- ATE Superblue
Pads -- Carbonne Lorraine
Master Cylinder -- Magura Radial 195. I'd get the m/c from the HP2 Sport though. You need the direct mount res because the large post mounted one doesn't fit with the fairing and trying to find the large direct mount reservoir it has vs. what's on the market is impossible. BMW doesn't sell the reservoir separately
Rotors -- Brembo HP Rotors from an S1000RR
Lines -- Goodridge has a tee fitting (S-5136) that has a locating lug like the K12/13 fitting
Calipers -- AP Racing as Per the article above. I haven't looked a Brembo axial mount calipers.

Hope this gives you a start.
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Old 03-05-2013, 07:35 PM
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Re: Upgrading Brake System - K1300S - questions?

JT:
So you are experiencing pretty much exactly why BMW had the recall - my new one needs to get this recall as well. I'm assuming you had the sponge thing done? Now lets say that you have - why not take it to your dealer and tell them your bike is experiencing the exact symptoms stated in the recall. And maybe get them to install new parts under warranty. And let them put all new pads/rotors/ calipers/ master cyclinder - whatever - and try it again. If the problem goes away great - if not then you may have to spend some of your money.
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Old 03-05-2013, 08:22 PM
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Cool Re: Upgrading Brake System - K1300S - questions?

Quote:
Originally Posted by brucev
JT:
So you are experiencing pretty much exactly why BMW had the recall - my new one needs to get this recall as well. I'm assuming you had the sponge thing done? Now lets say that you have - why not take it to your dealer and tell them your bike is experiencing the exact symptoms stated in the recall. And maybe get them to install new parts under warranty. And let them put all new pads/rotors/ calipers/ master cyclinder - whatever - and try it again. If the problem goes away great - if not then you may have to spend some of your money.

Great question. You may or not be aware that I do part time work for a BMW dealership in a sales, blogging, ride organizing and whatnot. So I have a great relationship with the service manager. His best friend also has a 2011 K13S which has the exact same problem. Both of our bikes have both the sponge and the brass weight in the main reservoir and are not subject to the most recent recall.

Along with a couple of our regular dealership riders on K13S bikes, we have been brainstorming this issue (since everyone of us has it, and none of us had it on our previous bikes riding the same canyons the same spirited way). What we believe is that there is some evil, unintended intersection between the weight/power of this bike and hte heat transferance into the fluid. What KVR had to say about the possible issue of the ABS module is a new avenue that bears exploring.

I am still under factory waranty for another year, and I could have the shop replace virtually every piece to the braking system under warranty, but none of us K13S riders believe that will solve the problem. Everyone of us has the exact same issue and everyone of us can just about tell time by how many corners we have to brake into and when we start to lose the brakes.

As a matter of fact, I have gotten so good at predicting it, I can actually cruise into a corner, have nice braking action, and *know* for certain the next corner will be shot - and be right. Repeatedly.

To me this says heat. Why the same fluid that is in an RR, an R12 or an F800 boils in a K13S is the mystery. although, it could really be as simple that there is no other bike that weighs so much with so much power in BMW's fleet. Also, there is no other bike of this weight using BMW's ABS2 system that gets ridden like this. The R12GS ADV is the closest, but our ride leader is far more agressive than most of us KS riders has no problems with his R12ADV. And it's the SAME braking system! Same disk, same caliper, same fluid (AFAIK).

But the power is vastly different. We put a LOT of energy into these bikes between corners. 175HP is definately called upon on a regular basis as we wind out 2nd and/or 3rd out of one 20mph corner, down a right hand sweeper, into a hard left-handed switchback hairpin. After light trail braking a few corners before the sweeper-straight the aggresive braking into the hard hairpin is guaranteed to cook the brakes. I get one hard pull in anger, as it were, then I have to limit my speed to compression braking ability for the next 10+ turns to allow the brakes to cool off.

Sooo....

In answer to your question, the reason that I have not made the dealership do cartwheels is that I work for hte dealership and if all of us thought that would fix the problem I would, but I/we dont. So I dont.

So, I am the guniea-pig for the local KS riders to figure out what is the cheapest/best way to correct this issue without throwing a tantrum at BMW.

And I'm sure I'll blog about it on the dealer's site!

JT
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Old 03-05-2013, 09:38 PM
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Re: Upgrading Brake System - K1300S - questions?

JT:
I'm with you on your explanation up to a point. If in fact it is as you say the HP/weight thing - I still think it is BMW's problem. They have had problems for several years with these bikes - the safety recall - up to and including the 2013's. They know they have a problem so I think they should fix it. You had the update and it still does what BMW sent you a recall for.

My letter states as all of them has - in certain riding conditions involving increased vibration, such as on long rides at constant high engine rpm, within a very narrow range, and with the front brake fluid reservoir filled to maximum capacity, it is possible for the brake fluid in the front reservoir to foam. If this happened, air could enter the front brake system and, in some cases, could significantly reduce front brake capability, increasing the risk of a crash.

I know you know this and it is not the dealers fault - it is BMW's problem - but reading your post - it really seems that what you have going on is related to the recall. Maybe your fluid is foaming and then boiling because of that.
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Old 03-05-2013, 09:57 PM
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Re: Upgrading Brake System - K1300S - questions?

The K12 bikes are nearly as heavy and my non servo, non abs brakes work fine. You do not hear of this mushy feel often on the pre Teves ABS K13's. This complaint seems to be specific to the K13 model. IMO, it has nothing to do with the calipers, mc, pads, rotor combo. The easy conclusion that I take from this is that the new Teves ABS system is not completely thought out. I agree with 929's first point above.

One thing that comes to mind is that the length of the lines from the MC to the ABS (across the hot engine) and back to the calipers just allow TOO many high spots, nooks and crannies that either air or old brake fluid can hide. Jeez, a simple T junction in a brake mc to caliper system can hinder bleeding (hence the dual lines straight from the master cylinder on all high end superbikes). I can't imagine what an entire ABS unit several feet away does.

Oh well, best of luck.


BTW, I've replaced my system with AP narrow band ductile iron racing discs, axial monoblock Brembo calipers, corresponding pads, ISR radial master cylinder and magnesium wheels. Not because of a particular problem, but because I'm sick in the head.




The calipers on the K12 and K13 and in fact most BMW bikes are very robust. The Brembo front calipers are sized 32mm and 36mm. (the K12R bikes used Tokico calipers, lower caliper in the pic below, of the same size pistons but I found the casting and tolerances to be much lower quality) Much larger in fact than all the modern sportbikes. The lines are braided stainless from the factory. The pads are sintered metallic. The rotors stainless. On paper, there is nothing really lacking in the system...

check out the inserts in the brembo pistons I presume are to reduce heat transfer compared to the more common cup pistons on the tokicos.

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Old 03-05-2013, 10:03 PM
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Re: Upgrading Brake System - K1300S - questions?

Why not go right to the Motul Race and be done with it, that will rule out any fluid being able to cure it?

http://www.spieglerusa.com/motul-bra...id-rbf-600.htm
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Old 03-05-2013, 10:23 PM
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Re: Upgrading Brake System - K1300S - questions?

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Why not go right to the Motul Race and be done with it, that will rule out any fluid being able to cure it?

http://www.spieglerusa.com/motul-bra...id-rbf-600.htm

unless the problem is getting the old fluid/moisture/air completely out of the LONG lines and ABS unit...

otherwise, that would be my first suggestion.


It is hard for me to believe you can boil fluid from simple self-described mildly spirited riding when the same fluid is made for racebikes that stop from 180+ repeatedly lap after lap after lap... It does not compute.

I suppose a simple diagnostic step is to find a k12 preferrably non servo/non abs bike to follow you guys and see if they have the problem...
I'm thinking if I owned the bike and it bothered me that much, maybe I'd ditch the ABS and run some custom lines directly to the calipers. Of course, the havoc that would cause the computer would be a problem. And you wouldn't have the linked rear brakes.
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Old 03-05-2013, 11:50 PM
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Re: Upgrading Brake System - K1300S - questions?

It would be relatively easy to block off the ABS lines at the banjos and install a line straight to the calipers then go ride the same road. You'd lose the brake lights for the duration but your buddies could cover you for a bit.
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Old 03-05-2013, 11:57 PM
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Re: Upgrading Brake System - K1300S - questions?

one last thought crossed my mind...

a lot is made about the weight of the K bikes however how much difference does it exactly make when it comes to braking?

per SportRider magazine's weights and measures, the K1300S' wet weight is 569. The average literbike is about 450. That is about a 25% increase in weight.

Kinetic energy of the bike is 1/2mv^2. This is the energy that must be lost by braking (not taking into account the various rotational inertial energies of the engine, wheels, etc). The increased kinetic energy for a 25% increase in mass is 25%.

If you calculate the amount of increased speed for a given mass that would produce that same 25% increase in kinetic energy it would be less than 12%. SQR(1.25).

So, if you get up to 80mph in your twisties on your K13 and experience fade, the equivalent kinetic energy increase for a literbike would mean it would have to travel only 10mph more (12%).

Much less than the 130-150mph the brake fluid sees at the track. Which would be a 300% increase in kinetic energy for a given mass (80 to 140mph).
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Old 03-06-2013, 01:04 AM
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Re: Upgrading Brake System - K1300S - questions?

OP, regardless of you brake issues, you should slow down on the streets man; we want you safe. For what you said, you're riding a heck of a lot harder on the KS than your Rs, so it's not really the extra weight that is doing you in, but the extra SPEED. Most of us like to ride the curves aggressively, but are not bombing from corner to corner. I have no chicken strips, but rarely have to use the brakes in the twisties; engine braking is enough. And have plenty of fun, while enjoying the scenery as well. If you're rocketing from corner to corner, it's only a matter of time before the inevitable happens, and it might not be pretty. Leave all that hard acceleration and braking for the track, where it's immensely safer. Good luck man.
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Old 03-06-2013, 04:33 AM
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Cool Re: Upgrading Brake System - K1300S - questions?

Really? Look, I posted in my initial post that I don't want to debate the problem. If I was looking for philosophy I would have posted in K1300S General. In case it's not obvious, I am a *huge* K1300S fan for its choice on the compromises of weight, power, handling, stability, luggage and element protection. It's, in concept, my dream bike.

But the elephant in the room is that the K1300S brakes are marginal, at best, when pushed through canyons at speed or, presumably, at the racetrack depending on how much hard braking you have to do - and how frequently. I may ride the canyons at my (theoretical) 70% for safety and yet want to test the upper rpms in the lower gears (2nd mostly, but occasionally 1st and 3rd) between long corners, sure, but this hardly makes me a hooligan, I think. Rather, I suspect it puts me right with the median reader who sports his K13S on his local curves. After all, why else own a hyper-sport bike in the first place??

But this is a "technical" forum and I am really really trying to collect information from the experience of this group to see where the body of knowledge is concerning upgrading the K1300S brakes. If you ride your bike like our Mulholland and ACH and GMR brethren do, then I have to think this line of inquiry is of interest to you.

On to more technical issues...

Jcw- thank you for bending your mind to this! Yeah, long lines to ABS controller. It's a worry. And not cheap to diagnose. I'd rather think the issue is an unexpected hot spot from the calipers to the fluid... But I'm really not an engineer and so can only guess at the physics. Regardless, practically I'd like the most cost effective solution that offers enough more braking capability to manage our local hills as well as the boxers. If that's the aftermarket, so be it. How would you start from a stock K1300S brake system? Replace the abs controller? Flush flush flush? Fluid, pads? Rotors?

Your K12 brakes look very cool! . And no, the K12 bikes that ride with us do not seem to have the problem. I pegged that to HP difference but maybe it's really ABS and water hiding in the lines.

As to the energy equivalent to liter-bikes, I'm not entirely sure I follow your math. I think I know that if both a boxer and a KS have x ft of road to accel and decel that the K bike will put a boatload more energy into the rider/bike system than the R bike will; such is the nature of HP. So, no matter what eventual velocity the system achieves (more for RR, less for portly K13S, even less for boxer), the energy must still come back out as heat through friction at the brake pads and rotor. I wonder if the Brembo inserts were because they knew they had a problem.

The question is, what to do with the K13S brakes? Chase design flaw water accumulation points? Upgrade hardware? Stop riding it like an idiot and go back to a real mans motorcycle: a boxer???

Bottom line. We need better brakes for how these bikes are being used by the enthusiast community.

JT
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Old 03-06-2013, 04:52 AM
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Re: Upgrading Brake System - K1300S - questions?

Quote:
Originally Posted by K-K
Why not go right to the Motul Race and be done with it, that will rule out any fluid being able to cure it?

http://www.spieglerusa.com/motul-bra...id-rbf-600.htm

+1 the guy who rides roads like you do and had the same issues put it in his bike and no more problems, heck it's worth the money to find out don't you think, I'm putting it in mine when I get home.

That would be my first course of action before I spent a ton of money on brake components, but to each their own, good luck and let us know what you did in the end.

Edit: if your service manager friend does the flush/change for you it would be a nice time to take alot of pics and describe the process for us so when others go to change their fluid they would have a nice tutorial to go by put together by professionals.... just a thought.
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Old 03-06-2013, 07:30 AM
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Re: Upgrading Brake System - K1300S - questions?

Quote:
Originally Posted by cjburr
+1 the guy who rides roads like you do and had the same issues put it in his bike and no more problems, heck it's worth the money to find out don't you think, I'm putting it in mine when I get home.

That would be my first course of action before I spent a ton of money on brake components, but to each their own, good luck and let us know what you did in the end.

Edit: if your service manager friend does the flush/change for you it would be a nice time to take alot of pics and describe the process for us so when others go to change their fluid they would have a nice tutorial to go by put together by professionals.... just a thought.

+2 And Occams Razor: "among competing hypotheses, the one that makes the fewest assumptions should be selected" . Do the simplest, cheapest and least timing consuming thing first and just change the fluid with a thorough flush!

Have you considered draining all the fluid and not just flushing? What about taking the calipers off, retracting the pistons as much as possible then using vacuum to suck out any remaining fluid? Do not use any shop air to blow out anything, there is no way it is dry enough with a typical shop water separator. Buy a can of camera dry air if you also want to blow them out, could also use some "magic" dry nitrogen some people like to use in their tires. If you want to get them REAL dry then PM me and I'll tell you about our rotary desiccant drier that can dry anything that will fit in it down to -30C dew point!

If you're looking for a science project then start temporarily mounting thermocouples at various points on the brake system to monitor, record and analyze the actual temperatures before randomly throwing parts at it....could be as simple as a Fluke meter with a single sensor you move around and make multiple runs.

Analyze the problem and solve it, we're all looking forward to hearing about the "fix"!
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Old 03-06-2013, 07:37 AM
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Re: Upgrading Brake System - K1300S - questions?

The K1200S is using the same, identical brakes as the K1300S (calipers and discs, master cylinder is different, though same size). I am hard on the brakes. My front tires wear as fast as the rears. I cooked my brakes so hot coming down a mountain, the discs turned literally black in color and have done so repeatedly. I have never had the brake fade or the lever pressure go on me.

What you are having JT would scare the crap out of me. Regardless of what anyone thinks or says, something is wrong and it needs fixing. This is dangerous. No matter how you ride, the one thing you always need to be able to rely on are your brakes.

That said, it still sounds like there is some sort of contamination going on inside the brake system that makes the fluids boil. That, or you are experiencing some sort of temporary mechanical failure.

Have you ever removed the calipers and disassembled the pistons to clean the insides properly?
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Old 03-06-2013, 09:38 AM
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Re: Upgrading Brake System - K1300S - questions?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jaytee
Really? Look, I posted in my initial post that I don't want to debate the problem. If I was looking for philosophy I would have posted in K1300S General. In case it's not obvious, I am a *huge* K1300S fan for its choice on the compromises of weight, power, handling, stability, luggage and element protection. It's, in concept, my dream bike.

But the elephant in the room is that the K1300S brakes are marginal, at best, when pushed through canyons at speed or, presumably, at the racetrack depending on how much hard braking you have to do - and how frequently. I may ride the canyons at my (theoretical) 70% for safety and yet want to test the upper rpms in the lower gears (2nd mostly, but occasionally 1st and 3rd) between long corners, sure, but this hardly makes me a hooligan, I think. Rather, I suspect it puts me right with the median reader who sports his K13S on his local curves. After all, why else own a hyper-sport bike in the first place??

But this is a "technical" forum and I am really really trying to collect information from the experience of this group to see where the body of knowledge is concerning upgrading the K1300S brakes. If you ride your bike like our Mulholland and ACH and GMR brethren do, then I have to think this line of inquiry is of interest to you.

On to more technical issues...

Jcw- thank you for bending your mind to this! Yeah, long lines to ABS controller. It's a worry. And not cheap to diagnose. I'd rather think the issue is an unexpected hot spot from the calipers to the fluid... But I'm really not an engineer and so can only guess at the physics. Regardless, practically I'd like the most cost effective solution that offers enough more braking capability to manage our local hills as well as the boxers. If that's the aftermarket, so be it. How would you start from a stock K1300S brake system? Replace the abs controller? Flush flush flush? Fluid, pads? Rotors?

Your K12 brakes look very cool! . And no, the K12 bikes that ride with us do not seem to have the problem. I pegged that to HP difference but maybe it's really ABS and water hiding in the lines.

As to the energy equivalent to liter-bikes, I'm not entirely sure I follow your math. I think I know that if both a boxer and a KS have x ft of road to accel and decel that the K bike will put a boatload more energy into the rider/bike system than the R bike will; such is the nature of HP. So, no matter what eventual velocity the system achieves (more for RR, less for portly K13S, even less for boxer), the energy must still come back out as heat through friction at the brake pads and rotor. I wonder if the Brembo inserts were because they knew they had a problem.

The question is, what to do with the K13S brakes? Chase design flaw water accumulation points? Upgrade hardware? Stop riding it like an idiot and go back to a real mans motorcycle: a boxer???

Bottom line. We need better brakes for how these bikes are being used by the enthusiast community.

JT

I use EBC HH pads in my k13 S. they are much better feeling and way cheaper than the stock pAds. Easy to try and use the 5.1 fluid. Easy to try and cheap.
People say they eat the rotors, but I have used them for years with no problems with the rotors
Or any thing else.
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Old 03-06-2013, 12:48 PM
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Re: Upgrading Brake System - K1300S - questions?

A lot of interesting points made in the posts. I have only one idea to contribute that has not been kicked out. Porsche says not to let the pads get less than 50% if you drive hard. It has to do with heat insulation values. If your going to really ride your K bike, keep your pads fat and very fresh high quality fluid. I wonder if serious track bike riders let their brake fluid go a whole year?
(I was wondering about air scoops fashioned to bolt on to the caliper mounting bolts?)
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Old 03-06-2013, 02:49 PM
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Re: Upgrading Brake System - K1300S - questions?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jaytee
The question is, what to do with the K13S brakes? Chase design flaw water accumulation points? Upgrade hardware? Stop riding it like an idiot and go back to a real mans motorcycle: a boxer???

Bottom line. We need better brakes for how these bikes are being used by the enthusiast community.

JT

I agree. It is not even riding like an idiot. a panic stop from high speed maybe downhill and 2-up that leads to brake fade is a serious issue.

I'm not sure how the teves ABS system works. But it just seems to me that there HAS to be some fluid behind the valves in the system that does not get replaced when BMW states no special bleeding needs to be done with the abs unit itself.

On the old k12 ABS system, it was an involved procedure that required special tools to completely bleed first the mc/calipers and then the ABS itself.


I wonder if vacuum flushing the system would yield better results. Sort of like vacuum filling the cooling system. Any air bubbles expand and are more easily flushed out of the system. Still, if some of the fluid just is inaccesible due to the nature of the ABS mechanism, it might require you vacuum flush, ride and brake to activate the abs, and repeat until you can sufficently dilute that old fluid out.

Unless you can somehow open the ABS valves with BMW's GT1 computer...
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Old 03-06-2013, 03:53 PM
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Re: Upgrading Brake System - K1300S - questions?

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Originally Posted by jcw
Unless you can somehow open the ABS valves with BMW's GT1 computer...

what about GS-911!!!???
this will not do the job ???
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Old 03-06-2013, 04:27 PM
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Re: Upgrading Brake System - K1300S - questions?

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what about GS-911!!!???
this will not do the job ???

Yes the latest software rev will.
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Old 03-06-2013, 05:21 PM
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Re: Upgrading Brake System - K1300S - questions?

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Originally Posted by Kalou
what about GS-911!!!???
this will not do the job ???

http://www.gs911usa.com/gs-911-news.php#iabs

This covers the K1200R/S/GT series, the servo-assisted ABS unit (i-ABS can). As I understand it, the new k1300 bikes do not have servo-assist and have a different abs unit.

Although elsewhere on the website it says the k1300s ABS is covered in beta software version, I'm not seeing it on the link above.


The link above says the unit can perform "bleed tests." I honestly don't know enough about the procedure to comment. But it doesn't look like it's set up to facilitate flushing of the system, just a check after the flush is performed.



Funny that when BMW came out with the new Teves-Conti ABS system, it was to replace the previous generation servo assisted ABS that was very craftily undermined by an individual that suffered one of those servo failures. infiltrating these very same forums to spread the word about the dangers of electrical failures of the servo brakes in motorcycles.

Now, it's time for the new servo-less ABS to be tested.
http://images.gizmag.com/gallery_lrg...8070671328.jpg


I'll bet that the next revision will have bleed circuits in the ABS unit itself. (or maybe not. BMW has this nonchalant attitude when it comes to motorcycle safety and action, IMO.) Reading some of the old press releases about the Conti-Teves system, they DO describe valves and a reservoir of brake fluid that is contained in the system. Obviously (to me), this reservoir of old fluid will not be bled during the course of a normal K1300s brake job. Once you start riding again and abs kicks in, the brake fluid from this reservoir may leak into the main circuit and voila! brake fade!
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Old 03-06-2013, 05:36 PM
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Re: Upgrading Brake System - K1300S - questions?

I wonder what the reprom says about replacing an abs unit on a k1300. Obviously, it will be sent without brake fluid so there must be a procedure to fill it.

What I would do is duplicate this procedure with the current ABS unit with brand new brake fluid (the Motul stuff preferrably) and hopefully the problems will go away.

Or maybe I'm completely off my rocker...
it wouldn't be the first time...
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Old 03-06-2013, 06:34 PM
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Re: Upgrading Brake System - K1300S - questions?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jcw
As I understand it, the new k1300 bikes do not have servo-assist
They do in the rear; that's how it brakes with just the front lever. You can test it by putting bike in center stand, turn ignition on, depress brake lever with right hand, stretch and turn rear wheel forward with left hand, and you'd immediately hear the servo pump activate, stopping the wheel. I like that system, since the front is non-servo. And yes, you can activate the rear independently from the front with the rear pedal.

For the OP, did you bleed the master cylinder? You might have air there. You have air somewhere; it's as simple as that. But remember the master cylinder bleed valve needs to be tightened to only 2Nm.
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Old 03-07-2013, 01:48 AM
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Re: Upgrading Brake System - K1300S - questions?

Quote:
Originally Posted by elp_jc
They do in the rear; that's how it brakes with just the front lever.

But this is not really the kind of servo assist that acts as a "power assist" that the RS or early slant-4 bikes had, that, when the key is off, leave you with only residual braking. On the newer bikes with this Teves-manufactured ABS, the rear brake is actuated by a servo when you apply the front one (as you say), but when you use the rear brake pedal to apply the rear brake, there is no servo action.... just the pressure of your foot.
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Old 03-07-2013, 10:05 AM
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Cool Re: Upgrading Brake System - K1300S - questions?

Thanks again for all the great replies. Ok, so it seems that the consensus among several of the more technical minded is that there is no way this fluid should be boiling given the relatively moderate speeds and sporting braking- even two up.

So this says to me that either there is fluid contamination (kvr929r, jcw, throttlemeister) or I am still experiencing the foaming that BMW has been chasing since the K13S hit the street (brucev).

I'll talk to Jon Seghi (my service manager), but as of now I am leaning towards a full system flush, including ABS controller, replacement with high temp fluid, new pads (cjburr, K-K)...

And yes, elp-jc, the master cylinder was bled by both me and the dealer in the same month. Also, I don't see how their could be air in the system given that I can get quite a few pulls with no problem until the whole system gets very hot before losing pedal pressure. While not an engineer, it seems far more likely that the fluid is contaminated.

So.

Next question- given the spirited riding I do (sometimes two-up), should I be looking at changing my pad compound from stock?

And if so, do the rotors need to be changed or honed as well?

I have hear/read/been told that one does not want to mix pad materials on the same rotor so they either need to be cleaned or replaced.

True?

Thanks again to all who have helped brainstorm this!

JT
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Old 03-07-2013, 11:06 AM
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Re: Upgrading Brake System - K1300S - questions?

IMO, the stock pads are good. They are sintered metallic pads specifically made for stainless steel rotors. Carbon Lorraine pads are also sintered and in my mind equivalent and maybe cheaper.
IMO, EBC pads are mass produced pads that are somewhat substandard. I have heard (not experienced) that they are more abrasive and can cause some galling. Other people have different opinions.

If you replaced the rotors with ductile iron, sintered pads would be inappropriate (in general) and you would need to switch to a softer pad.

As far as cleaning the rotors, the only thing I have read is that if you change pad material (ie sintered to organic) then you should bead blast or hone the rotor. If it's the same pad material there should not be a need to. Unless you have galling on the rotor.

I would check runout and thickness on the discs and make sure they are within spec. Make sure there are no high spots of the surface.


Good luck!
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Old 03-07-2013, 05:49 PM
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Re: Upgrading Brake System - K1300S - questions?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jaytee
Also, I don't see how their could be air in the system given that I can get quite a few pulls with no problem until the whole system gets very hot before losing pedal pressure. While not an engineer, it seems far more likely that the fluid is contaminated.
It's too much moisture in the fluid man. You can call it 'contamination', but it's a separate issue IMO. When fluid boils, BAM!, now you have air in your system. Once that happens, you need a flush. One well done should take care of your problem.... IF you use the bike like it was designed to. Don't expect ANY stock brakes to hold for very long if riding like a hooligan with a passenger. Just learn the bike's limitations, and leave the more aggressive riding solo . The K13S is perfectly fine for its intended use; you seem to be the only one having trouble with it .

As a final comment, also check the master cylinder doesn't leak internally, and that you have at least half the meat on all brake pads (the more the better to prevent fade). Both issues already mentioned, but just in case you missed them . Good luck.
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Old 03-07-2013, 08:27 PM
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Cool Re: Upgrading Brake System - K1300S - questions?

Gotcha- will do, thanks.

JT
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Old 03-08-2013, 04:55 PM
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Re: Upgrading Brake System - K1300S - questions?

I have tried several brake pads and DP Sport seem to be the best. The initial bite is the best and manageable. https://www.denniskirk.com/dp-brakes...prd/194619.sku
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Old 03-10-2013, 06:28 PM
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Re: Upgrading Brake System - K1300S - questions?

I just saw some vesrah pads on fleabay for the k1300s.

The rjl pads were the best pads on my zx-10r. They are "racing" pads.

They only make the k1300s brake pads in the jl or street. but if they are anything like the racing pads, they would be my first choice.
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Old 04-25-2013, 08:18 AM
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Cool Re: Upgrading Brake System - K1300S - questions?

Time for a quick update!!

So far, with about 500 miles of canyons under my belt, replacing the old pads (were at 30% life left) with new BMW pads and thoroughly flushing the system with Motul racing fluid, I have regained nearly an inch in my lever pull, have a much firmer lever feel and have yet to cook the brakes.

Initial analysis, after discussing with my service manager, is that the K13S, when driven/braked aggressively requires more than average pad material remaining (50% or better) and needs a full system flush every 6-12 months. Whether or not the racing fluid makes a big difference for street/canyon use is anyone's guess but it's cheap insurance.

While lever feel still softens up slightly after heat has been put into the system, overall my confidence in the braking system has been restored and I currently see no need for more drastic measures like fully floating rotors or different calipers/pads.

JT
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Old 04-25-2013, 09:07 AM
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Re: Upgrading Brake System - K1300S - questions?

Glad to hear things worked out for you, now that's 2 people who have solved this issue with a fluid flush and new pads.

My bike is now running the Motul fluid also but the pads were fine for now......of course there aren't many curvy roads in Florida
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Old 04-25-2013, 10:25 AM
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Re: Upgrading Brake System - K1300S - questions?

Hey James

The K13S already has the greatest brakes ever . . ., you must have air in the lines.
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Old 04-25-2013, 01:10 PM
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Re: Upgrading Brake System - K1300S - questions?

Fellow Riders,

My personnel opinion is this; standard b/pads are OK at best.fluid, the same.
BMW has already admitted master cylinder problems .......

With my S-1000RR .. PADS & FLUID change ... After 1st track day experienced
serious brake issues ... brake fade like you would not believe ... The heat transfer
from rotors to pads, calipers, fluid was just stupid .... racing fluid, carbon loraine
racing pads ... problem solved !!

Now if you really want SERIOUS stopping power ... Brembo Radial racing master cly.
fluid change with any high quality, high temp stuff, racing b/pads ..........

Believe me... You will no longer have brake issues... ever
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Old 10-15-2015, 03:35 PM
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Re: Upgrading Brake System - K1300S - questions?

The brake as stated by most other guys is based on your brake fluid. You can use any DOT 4 or Dot 5 with a higher boiling point. Amsoil, Motul, EBC, or LiquiMoly are some of the choices to consider.

Another thing to remember especially in So.Cal. Brake fluid loves moisture! I'm in Vegas so it's less of a problem, however if the bike is stored and used in a more humid environment such as So.Cal you will get water in your brake lines. On track day and racing we flush the old fluid out at least twice or sometimes more per weekend. If you know you are headed for a "spirited" ride you should flush the fluid with any of the proper products above. Please note, that when you open the bottle of brake fluid, even with the cap on it will absorb moisture from the air! A bottle of brake fluid that has sat around for sometime is useless. We learned from experience, what that means is get your buddies to come over and have a brake flush party to you can use up the bottle quickly. This will help with the brake fade issue. The water in the brake fluid is boiling and thus creating air and fade. Brake fade is normal in high temp use. Change it more often. I mean, way way more often than you currently are. You'll see results.

Good Luck!

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Old 10-16-2015, 12:46 PM
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Re: Upgrading Brake System - K1300S - questions?

Or you can get some weight off the bike.
My brake problems went away on the K12 when I went to a full Ti exhaust, Wilbers shocks, Anti-gravity battery and I lost a couple of pounds. Upgrading the brakes was in the plan, but no longer needed. 30 lbs makes a surprising difference.
The K13 has lighter wheels. With just the Ti exhaust and Anti-gravity battery I have no brake problems. One caveat, I have not ridden the K13 hard on a hot day.
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Old 10-18-2015, 02:01 PM
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Re: Upgrading Brake System - K1300S - questions?

Brake fade : comes from pads working beyond their full operating temp range. Change your type of compound. It is possible that brake pads glaze and turn into a mirrolike surface... Remove the pads and rub their face on asphalt in an 8 pattern. Reinstall. Or better. Change them for more appropriate compound.

Spongy brakes :
if running too hot, pads transmit a lot of heat to the brake fuid thru the pistons. Any moisture in the brake fluid will boil and turn into air bubbles. You then get air into the brakelines. Flush all the fluid as it has already absorbed moisture that will turn (again) into vapors on the next session. To help lessen that heat transfer, you can fit stainless steel pistons to your calipers if they have alu pistons at he moment.

As a sidenote. Most hight boiling temp brake fluids usually are more hygroscopic (attract moisture from air) than lesser fluid. Therefore, if you don't often change your brake fluid, using a high performance fluid might not be the best choice.
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Old 11-10-2015, 02:41 PM
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Re: Upgrading Brake System - K1300S - questions?

A few years back, I was thinking of getting the Sicom brakes in order to counter the fading.
I get it when hard breaking down steep hills, but not on the track.
I talked to the owner at Ilmberger, he had used the K12/13 on the track and told me that changing brakes wouldnšt help as the bike is just too heavy.

I have also bought the Carbone Lorraine XBK5 pads, haven't installed the yet as my dealer changed my brake pads during service without my knowledge..
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Old 11-10-2015, 10:13 PM
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Re: Upgrading Brake System - K1300S - questions?

From your post, I know you don't want to hear this so you can ignore me if you like but I am somewhat surprised that you're getting that much fade with the brakes. I don't want to sound like I know everything about performance riding on the street but if I were you I'd be using a lot more engine braking to manage speeds into and out of curves.

I think you'll find that it's far easier to modulate speed with the throttle than with the brake and you're not as likely to upset the suspension and balance of the bike. I'm basing this on several hard days of play at the track and have never suffered brake fade on my K1300S. As I said, you can choose to ignore me or I might have saved you $2K in upgrades if you just try it one weekend. Either way, have fun!

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Old 11-14-2015, 03:07 AM
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Re: Upgrading Brake System - K1300S - questions?

Brake fade? Hmm dunno........my r has stoppers like eyeball smash against the visor oomph. Now I don't at all ride like Mr Rossi but I do enjoy a quick ride occasionally where the speedo is well into "go straight to gaol, do not pass go" kinda territory and have never had the slightest problem. On my electraglide however, brakes???!!! Am thinking that 4 high compression pistons may well help, 2 low compression cylinders and "brakes" equal planning well ahead! Good luck....or it can be hard yet somewhat possible to slow down a bit and save the race mode for the track....................
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Old 03-23-2016, 12:55 PM
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Re: Upgrading Brake System - K1300S

To the ORIGINAL poster - the problem with forums is that you get what you pay for

ANY-one attempting to push through canyons aggressively with an OEM setup from any manufacturer is an accident looking for a place to happen. So, any "fade" you may be experiencing from your innumerable encounters with the "5" other racy-riders begins in your heads, & requires ADVANCE planning.

1. You're probably on the wrong motorcycle if you have the KaHonies...Move to the S1000RR - Here's my set-up; AKropovic Race, Dynojet PC5, 520 conversion - 16/46, DID ZVM-X 520 Gold Chain - extends mileage with minute sacrifice regarding weight, Brembo 19 RCS Master, Ferodo CP1.
2. Hold on for dear life because the term "ferocious" is about to enter your vocabulary.
3. Read EVERYTHING you can about engine-braking as this will be a revelation to your "style" - performance & safety.
4. Flush brake fluid every year - use Motul RBF600
5. 1st move to Double-H Pads - EBC Sintered Race Pads - Use Caution in the wet.
6. 2nd IF Double-H pads do not work for your incredibly wicked pace (on the brakes), us carbon-ceramic full-race - See Ferodo CP1. YES, your rotors will need to be honed to re-establish a clean surface/foundation. Be extremely cautious in the wet.
7. Invest in Racing-Street tires from Bridgestone - BT003 or Michelin Pilot Power 3. Research/Lower tire pressures.
8. Get the hell out of the canyons & do track-days, where the smart riders do their business. One moron across the lines will challenge numbers 8 & 9 in my list.
9. Make certain your Health Insurance Premiums are up to date.
10. Draft & Sign your Last Will & Testament, right down to the music you wish to be played as your friends are viewing your body.
11. Be safe out their tiger...
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Old 03-24-2016, 01:02 AM
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Re: Upgrading Brake System - K1300S - questions?

I have a question to the OP, since I ride hard and do not have fade.
What version of the K1300s do you have and how much weight have you taken off it?
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Old 05-07-2016, 04:12 AM
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Re: Upgrading Brake System - K1300S - questions?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jaytee
Hello all! I've finally had it with these substandard brakes we have. Now before you go whining that these are the best brakes ever and that I have air in my line please understand that if you ride in my territory (SoCal canyons and mountains) at my pace (spirited) with this heavy bike you WILL get brake fade. Every spirited K13S rider I have ever ridden with (5 of them) had had the exact same thing happen to them: trail braking into aggressive corners and one haul down form straightaway speeds and your brakes are cooked. The fluid boils and the lever goes back to the bar. Scary.

So lets please not debate the problem. Suffice it to say that I am now interested in increasing the amount of heat the braking system can handle before fade.

So what do I look at, exactly?

Fluid (but what kind? Fully synthetic?)
Pads (sintered? Metallic? Race pads?)
Spacer (do these really work to limit heat transfer between the pad and the pistons?)
Fully floating front rotors (does this really help my heat problem or is it just a deflection issue?)

I've searched all over but every rotor company seemed to have skipped the K1300S. Any of you gurus and engineer types able to point me in the right direction?

thanks in advance!

JT
To stop the heat from the pad getting into the fluid you pop out all the Pistons from the calliper, then you find a friendly engineer with a milling machine and get him to mill notches into the edge of the piston in contact with the brake pad. 4mm wide and 1mm deep. He has to work out how many but around 3mm of contact with the pad is perfect.
This does two things, it reduces the contact with the pad that generates the heat by more than 50% and it also vents the mega hot trapped air in the hollow piston directly in contact with the fluid.
I was doing this for Formula 3 cars in the 70s on Lockheed race callipers, works perfectly
Also I think these callipers are fitted with aluminium pistons which will suck the heat off the back of the pad straight into the fluid.
Get these made from stainless and notch the edge as above and you could do a GP with no lever probs.
Another thing that happens with calipers with ally Pistons is they expand in the bore, get tight after a hard stop and then leave the pads hard against the disc creating more heat between corners. Happened to me with Billet Six callipers
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Old 05-07-2016, 04:23 AM
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Re: Upgrading Brake System - K1300S

Quote:
Originally Posted by RM-High
To the ORIGINAL poster - the problem with forums is that you get what you pay for

ANY-one attempting to push through canyons aggressively with an OEM setup from any manufacturer is an accident looking for a place to happen. So, any "fade" you may be experiencing from your innumerable encounters with the "5" other racy-riders begins in your heads, & requires ADVANCE planning.

1. You're probably on the wrong motorcycle if you have the KaHonies...Move to the S1000RR - Here's my set-up; AKropovic Race, Dynojet PC5, 520 conversion - 16/46, DID ZVM-X 520 Gold Chain - extends mileage with minute sacrifice regarding weight, Brembo 19 RCS Master, Ferodo CP1.
2. Hold on for dear life because the term "ferocious" is about to enter your vocabulary.
3. Read EVERYTHING you can about engine-braking as this will be a revelation to your "style" - performance & safety.
4. Flush brake fluid every year - use Motul RBF600
5. 1st move to Double-H Pads - EBC Sintered Race Pads - Use Caution in the wet.
6. 2nd IF Double-H pads do not work for your incredibly wicked pace (on the brakes), us carbon-ceramic full-race - See Ferodo CP1. YES, your rotors will need to be honed to re-establish a clean surface/foundation. Be extremely cautious in the wet.
7. Invest in Racing-Street tires from Bridgestone - BT003 or Michelin Pilot Power 3. Research/Lower tire pressures.
8. Get the hell out of the canyons & do track-days, where the smart riders do their business. One moron across the lines will challenge numbers 8 & 9 in my list.
9. Make certain your Health Insurance Premiums are up to date.
10. Draft & Sign your Last Will & Testament, right down to the music you wish to be played as your friends are viewing your body.
11. Be safe out their tiger...

I would say you are being a little unfair here, I have done a couple of track days on my 1300 and have to say the brakes weren't as good as the HP2 but not bad.
However the mountain roads in Italy soon had the brakes back to the bar, it's not so much how hard you brake it's how long the pads are in good contact with the disc. My fix for this is in my other post... Don't be so quick to put down someone who may just ride harder than you either ( not me,the original poster) makes you look a tad smug
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