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"K13S/R" Technical Q&A K1200S/R Technical Questions/Answers

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  #121  
Old 12-31-2015, 12:09 PM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Fourhundredfour posted a great description of the oil flow and videos of before and after his oil flow mods. So this has been solved, please read the whole thread and watch all the videos.
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  #122  
Old 12-31-2015, 01:28 PM
fourhundred4 fourhundred4 is offline
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Quote:
Originally Posted by Welshman
I understood BMW designed the K1200 engine. I know that Ricardo were called in to rework the engine into the K1300, but would regard the fundamental design of the engine as being BMW. They did after all design the S1000RR engine, which is a pretty clever piece of kit.

You may well be correct. A promotional article I once read in the automotive trade press here suggested that firm won competitive tenders for design work on the pair of fours and the six cylinder engine. The later two being as a result of their expertise and insight gained working on the 1200 engine. Perhaps just won the tender for the six after same to create the 1300.

Reading their own promotional material as to how they identified and cured issues with the 1200 transmission in 2008 to make an improved 1300 is concerning as far as the clutch.

"A number of studies were undertaken to investigate the behaviour of the driveline
Idle study
Clutch spring stiffness
Clutch friction damping"

Despite their studies and revisions, owners report the issues have carried over to the 1300.
- Rattle at idle - because the revised springs still shrink.
- Clutch spring stiffness - revised but initial benefit lost as they still shrink.
- Clutch friction damping - owners continue to report squawk or chatter at take off with premature friction lining failure still all too common - Friction plate lubrication is still not adequate.
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  #123  
Old 12-31-2015, 01:56 PM
fourhundred4 fourhundred4 is offline
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Quote:
Originally Posted by cstumpf750
The lack of oil supply is the real problem. If someone in Europe could contact Ricardo and inquire about how the oil is supplied to the clutch we might be able to come up with a real fix instead of bandaids that don't address the root problem. I suspect the clutch is being supplied via the low pressure side and there is a flow restriction to supply just enough oil to the clutch and no more that is too restrictive. The clutch needs a higher volume of oil delivered to it, simple as that.

They are a massive organisation. Finding the one guy who might remember how oil is intended to get to the clutch could be the old needle in a haystack problem. And as the clutch is made by German company Hoerbigger it might well be they even further "outsourced" the solution to this particular issue to them.

Having had no end of wet clutches from other manufacturers open and plenty from BMW 1200 and 1300's the issue is clear to me. Gearbox designer and clutch designer never met to confirm how one would hand over the oil to the other. More than sufficient oil is there in the gearbox shaft and there is a route out of there specifically to oil the clutch. The clutch designer overlooked this or was never shown and left the correct and intended method of oil feed to chance.
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  #124  
Old 01-01-2016, 03:16 PM
Bengarzy Bengarzy is offline
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Quote:
Originally Posted by RuhiA
Excellent tutorials and documenting the work. Thank you for your time.

Couple of questions:

If the hole in the shaft is not adequate to supply the sufficient oil to the inside of the hub with the holes passing the oil to the plates, does that mean there is no need to do anything else with the hub? I recall seeing in one of the youtube links, the hole closest to the shoulder was too far, not lined up with the first plate.

Next is, if the cause of the symptoms are originated from the lack of sufficient oil flow to the plates to "was and clean" the generated plate dust which in turn becomes like a paste polluting up the plates, how would this explain these clutch symptoms to be present from brand new?
My point exactly, my clutch Juddered and howled unless you took off in the most gentle fashion, a few extra revs and it "honked" just as the drive picked up.... Both bikes brand new and both the same faults and 8,000 miles on still just the same, if I didn't like the bike so much I would have parked it at the dealers with a wad of copy's of all you unhappy owners from this forum. It is truly disgracefull that BMW have never fixed this, if four hundred4 or I find a solution to the problem it would make the factory look very silly........ And not for the first time!
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  #125  
Old 01-01-2016, 04:16 PM
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Bill Curlee Bill Curlee is offline
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Well,,, I gave up on my 07 K1200R.. Tired of riding it like a MOPED. No more than 1/4 throttle and sissy like starts.

Its PARKED and the clutch will come out. I was going to be brave and do all the repairs my self. After agonizing over the project for so long the wife said SEND the GD thing off and have it fixed!

WOW,, That was an easy decision. SO,, As soon as its out, I will send it off to the CLUTCH WIZARD for the full monty. New oiling, new springs and all the little things that fourhundred4 does to make it better.
I have a whole list of things that needs to be done to the K and the weather change and the crappy clutch made the dry docking just that much easier..

2016 will be much better for the K...

HAPPY NEW YEAR!

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  #126  
Old 01-01-2016, 08:17 PM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

I want to thank 404 once again for sharing his knowledge.I did mine and it's soooo much better.I also wanted to add that my slave cylinder has a flat spot where it contacts the push rod for the throw out bearing.When I re-assembled the slave cylinder I must have touched the end and rotated the flat spot till there was a ball shape showing.When I went to put the 4 screws in that hold the slave in the case cover the slave didn't want to seat flat.So I took the slave out and looked at it and I could see the problem.Spun the flat spot back and it went in smooth.I also replaced the throw out bearing while I was in there.Good luck with your clutch Bill.
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  #127  
Old 01-06-2016, 03:28 PM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Jb63,

Where did you source replacement parts from? Specifically the springs and the rivets?
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  #128  
Old 01-07-2016, 08:24 AM
fourhundred4 fourhundred4 is offline
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Quote:
Originally Posted by cstumpf750
Jb63,

Where did you source replacement parts from? Specifically the springs and the rivets?

To clarify for others who might follow. These parts are only required for the rebuild/modification of the clutch baskets. Different to the work done by jb63 which I believe was a change of the clutch plates and opening out of the oil feed to keep them "wetter".

I have the clutch basket torsion damper springs specially manufactured. They are different from the standard BWM versions. Input from a local manufacturer here for the minimum of damage and shortening over their life. The revised assembly method also reduces the risk of them being damaged in service.

The rivets are special. You would need to find someone willing to manufacture them. I use a special thread forming system so that high tensile fasteners can be used in their place. The casting does not have enough strength or "spare" wall thickness to allow conventional thread cutting for stock fasteners or anything such as inserts.

Must stress rebuilding is quite involved. Did not just start modifying them overnight. Been doing many other manufacturers baskets for over five years now. Needed that experience plus plenty of experimenting with old K12/13 baskets to prove the various methods were safe and exactly what is required to get them right. Buying the parts in reasonable numbers they still cost over 150 GB Pounds. Then there's jig and tool costs.
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  #129  
Old 01-07-2016, 01:36 PM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

I can get springs made to my specification locally, so that's not a problem. The rivets are the only thing I haven't worked out yet. But it looks like I'm on my own to figure that out. I'm not a beginner to this kind of stuff. Plus I have a cousin that builds race engines an he has lots of connections for machining and such.
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  #130  
Old 01-07-2016, 01:52 PM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Fourhundred, any chance you can post two estimates and an address?
Assuming you are interested...
One for a kit so we can do it ourselves,
another for when we botch it and send it to you.
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  #131  
Old 01-07-2016, 01:55 PM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Quote:
Originally Posted by DOA
Fourhundred, any chance you can post two estimates and an address?
Assuming you are interested...
One for a kit so we can do it ourselves,
another for when we botch it and send it to you.

That's a good idea.
Specially for folks this side of the pond... and then down.
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  #132  
Old 01-07-2016, 04:15 PM
Katsumoto Katsumoto is offline
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Hi Guys(& dolls)
just an idea for an off the shelf rivet solution.

In aviation we use a thing called hi-locks.
It's basically a rivet type bolt, with an internal hex(allen-key) drive at the threaded end.
The nut is a shear type_which will shear once tightened to the designed torque. The hex drive is to hold it whilst tightening the shear nut, preventing it from spinning whilst tightening.
Great product. Light and durable.
All shapes, materials and sizes avail.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=d_Fx0766n3k

K
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  #133  
Old 01-07-2016, 09:38 PM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Quote:
Originally Posted by cstumpf750
Jb63,

Where did you source replacement parts from? Specifically the springs and the rivets?
Like 404 said I just improved the oil flow and installed a new clutch.Doing that got rid of the squawk on take off.
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  #134  
Old 01-08-2016, 04:12 AM
Bengarzy Bengarzy is offline
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Quote:
Originally Posted by fourhundred4
BMW did not design this engine. They had it done for them by a firm of consulting engineers here in the UK.
BMW did not design the gearbox. They had that done for them by a gear company here in the UK.
The clutch is designed and made in Germany by another company that in all my years of work on wet clutches I had never come across before. The catalogue of revision on revision suggests someone worked hard to re design things for sure. Not likely to be BMW though. Videos show BMW put it all together but that's all the factory knows what to do. And the rest we see is marketing blurb to build a brand identity.

That's my take on that clutch too, it's a bizarre thing for sure. I have made a clutch basket from solid for a 1000 Yamah and worked on vast numbers of different clutch types in my engineering life but never seen anything quite like that thing before. The only logical explanation I can think of is they didn't want a cable clutch that pulled the clutch pressure off R1 style and probably couldn't put the slave cylinder on the opposite side of the engine and use a push rod to release it, so it ended up being the weird device that we have that releases the pressure from the opposite side to normal, very strange.
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  #135  
Old 01-15-2016, 01:51 PM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Quote:
Originally Posted by jb63
Like 404 said I just improved the oil flow and installed a new clutch.Doing that got rid of the squawk on take off.
Did you replace the springs? Where did you buy it?
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  #136  
Old 01-15-2016, 06:34 PM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Quote:
Originally Posted by hieudd
Did you replace the springs? Where did you buy it?
I only had a fraction of play,and no vibration so there was no need to tare it apart and put springs in.Plus I would have to send it to England to have the work done because it requires special tools.If you need a rebuild send it to 404.
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  #137  
Old 01-17-2016, 06:34 AM
Bengarzy Bengarzy is offline
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Quote:
Originally Posted by jb63
I only had a fraction of play,and no vibration so there was no need to tare it apart and put springs in.Plus I would have to send it to England to have the work done because it requires special tools.If you need a rebuild send it to 404.

I didn't use new springs, as they seem to shrink by 2mm on all of them regardless of mileage I don't think they have been pre compressed before fitting, this is something that is done in spring making for highly loaded springs so they don't shrink in use. (scragging)
I made up top hat bushes that had a flange that took up the shrinkage and also made the spigot part touch ends just before the spring went coil bound (if that were possible).
Unless the basket is split its not possible to see that the main drive springs have shrunk as there is an extra lighter spring,it appeas, that controls light loads and rattles.
Been testing a second time and the drive line is just so much better and not having to pull away with such care to avoid the squawking and judder is great too.
It's a keeper now.
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  #138  
Old 01-17-2016, 08:40 AM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bengarzy
That's my take on that clutch too, it's a bizarre thing for sure. I have made a clutch basket from solid for a 1000 Yamah and worked on vast numbers of different clutch types in my engineering life but never seen anything quite like that thing before. The only logical explanation I can think of is they didn't want a cable clutch that pulled the clutch pressure off R1 style and probably couldn't put the slave cylinder on the opposite side of the engine and use a push rod to release it, so it ended up being the weird device that we have that releases the pressure from the opposite side to normal, very strange.

I agree with your statement above. My general opinion is:
Although BMW bikes are often superior as a"complete package" from the rider's perspective, you can count on them to make very strange / complicated design that are "a solution to a problem that did not exist".

Besides the clutch on the "slant-4"engines, the other example being the Integral-ABS with servos in all Boxers and K models between 2001-2006. I could name a few more of their engineering that time has proven to be complicated and unreliable.

Very sad as the whole bike is often great (suspension, handling, features...) and these faults and repeated warranty problems / recalls have caused many riders I know NOT to touch BMW anymore. It is insane to expect an owner to go back to his dealer to obtain the same part that will fail again (handlebar switches for 3 years, fuel level strip for many years, water-pump on K1600...)
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  #139  
Old 01-18-2016, 09:15 AM
fourhundred4 fourhundred4 is offline
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bengarzy
I didn't use new springs, as they seem to shrink by 2mm on all of them regardless of mileage I don't think they have been pre compressed before fitting, this is something that is done in spring making for highly loaded springs so they don't shrink in use. (scragging)
I made up top hat bushes that had a flange that took up the shrinkage and also made the spigot part touch ends just before the spring went coil bound (if that were possible).
Unless the basket is split its not possible to see that the main drive springs have shrunk as there is an extra lighter spring,it appeas, that controls light loads and rattles.
Been testing a second time and the drive line is just so much better and not having to pull away with such care to avoid the squawking and judder is great too.
It's a keeper now.

In my experience the stock springs shrink because they are taken past the elastic limit too many times for their material. Put another way they are not stiff enough nor are there enough of them for the load they have to carry. They end up being squashed further than they were designed which damages the structure of the steel. Luckier than in some engines where the springs start to break up and come out of the basket once too far past their limit.

Extending the spigot part of your spacers is good and will prevent them being coil bound (squashed very very far that the coils hit each other) if your spigots are just the right length.

Your original shrunk springs might still continue to shorten further over time because your spacers now take them yet further past their original elastic limit - which will probably still occur before your spigots touch. If the spigots start to touch you lose any damping and your damper is effectively solid.

This clutch basket damper works to soften judder caused by any non linear friction take up as we set off from rest or during gear changes. This could be rider or poor friction plate induced judder.

The main job of these dampers is to smooth out the engines peak torque spikes into something the rest of the transmission can cope with. These spikes occur at every fire of the engine. That's at all times and twice for every revolution of the four cylinder, four stroke engine. Not just at take off. These engines don't have a conventional flywheel on the crankshaft which would perform much of the smoothing required. The mass of the clutch is the next point after crankshaft its self to give any sort of flywheel damping effect to the engine. Some of these engines don't idle correctly because the damper has gone so weak and so far out of sync that at certain times there's not enough inertia feeding back to take the engine over to the next firing stroke or the "inertia bounce" of the heavy clutch/flywheel works against this and is enough to stop the engine. Lack of a flywheel is why many racing engines need a constantly blipped throttle..

These dampers also allow the designers to specify a lighter build of transmission. Loss of damping where there is no give at all while travelling will load the transmission above the designed level. This can lead to early friction plate failure due to overload slipping under near and full throttle. With long term risk of gearbox bearing, gear, dog and shaft problems due to overload if the "built in safety fuse" of clutch slip does not intervene to protect.
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  #140  
Old 01-18-2016, 05:50 PM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Quote:
Originally Posted by fourhundred4
In my experience the stock springs shrink because they are taken past the elastic limit too many times for their material. Put another way they are not stiff enough nor are there enough of them for the load they have to carry. They end up being squashed further than they were designed which damages the structure of the steel. Luckier than in some engines where the springs start to break up and come out of the basket once too far past their limit.

Extending the spigot part of your spacers is good and will prevent them being coil bound (squashed very very far that the coils hit each other) if your spigots are just the right length.

Your original shrunk springs might still continue to shorten further over time because your spacers now take them yet further past their original elastic limit - which will probably still occur before your spigots touch. If the spigots start to touch you lose any damping and your damper is effectively solid.


This clutch basket damper works to soften judder caused by any non linear friction take up as we set off from rest or during gear changes. This could be rider or poor friction plate induced judder.

The main job of these dampers is to smooth out the engines peak torque spikes into something the rest of the transmission can cope with. These spikes occur at every fire of the engine. That's at all times and twice for every revolution of the four cylinder, four stroke engine. Not just at take off. These engines don't have a conventional flywheel on the crankshaft which would perform much of the smoothing required. The mass of the clutch is the next point after crankshaft its self to give any sort of flywheel damping effect to the engine. Some of these engines don't idle correctly because the damper has gone so weak and so far out of sync that at certain times there's not enough inertia feeding back to take the engine over to the next firing stroke or the "inertia bounce" of the heavy clutch/flywheel works against this and is enough to stop the engine. Lack of a flywheel is why many racing engines need a constantly blipped throttle..

These dampers also allow the designers to specify a lighter build of transmission. Loss of damping where there is no give at all while travelling will load the transmission above the designed level. This can lead to early friction plate failure due to overload slipping under near and full throttle. With long term risk of gearbox bearing, gear, dog and shaft problems due to overload if the "built in safety fuse" of clutch slip does not intervene to protect.

I agree with everything you have said but I still have to try, I compressed all the removed springs in a vice to heavily coil bound over a weekend and NONE had shrunk at all which is why I'm confident they hadn't had any "scragging" to prepare them to be worked to there limit in use, taking up the 2mm slack by installing the top hat bushes I hope will see them not shrink again? Another thing occurs to me that the springs will take a continuous beating that the 2mm clearance slop will generate even on idle and lead to the clatter you can hear from them (not any more)
I had this bike from new and only for the first 100 gentle miles did it feel like a good chain drive bike, after that it wasn't so nice and I can only guess that these over worked springs collapse almost instantly........220 miles later it still feels fantastic after the rebuild and mods.
The main reason I stripped it was to get rid of the vibration and this has been eradicated too by balancing the primary gear/clutch basket assy which was a long way out.
I still find it hard to believe the weird layout for the clutch so the slave cylinder could be on the same side as the clutch and in doing that the clutch had to be designed in reverse and end up with the fragile looking device that exists, so unnecessary isn't it?
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  #141  
Old 01-22-2016, 01:57 PM
fourhundred4 fourhundred4 is offline
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Lightbulb Re: K1300s clutch problems

Well thanks for giving shims a try in these baskets. Be good of you to report back after more miles. A common trick to eek more life out of a tired spring.

The coil bound length is shorter (by about 5mm) than the minimum achievable length in service as the basket has built in load stops. There to prevent spring damage due to overload and coil bind.

Did you notice a loose inner plate?

The springs can seldom be a perfect fit in both the slots of the gear and slots of the basket. Always a small gap so the springs get a beating in all these types of dampers. Some manufacturers leave massive gaps at some of the spring ends when new. Gives a progressive rate to the damping as more springs are brought into service as the load and deflection increase. The springs are designed to take it.
Don't try die springs. Don't stand the cycles. This example is from a similar torque, capacity engine.


"Main reason for stripping was to get rid of the vibration". Was that the idle vibration or while you ride?

Having the hub and pressure plate reversed is as here quite common. First time I saw this was on a Honda CX500 and plenty of other Honda's since. Mechanical cam by lever pushing the pressure plate off rather than hydraulic as in these. It keeps the loose pressure plate and other plates that float about and change their center closer to the shafts bearings (less cantilever or overhung mass on the shaft effect) so any vibration due to this out of balance has less effect.
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  #142  
Old 01-23-2016, 03:52 AM
Bengarzy Bengarzy is offline
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Quote:
Originally Posted by fourhundred4
Well thanks for giving shims a try in these baskets. Be good of you to report back after more miles. A common trick to eek more life out of a tired spring.

The coil bound length is shorter (by about 5mm) than the minimum achievable length in service as the basket has built in load stops. There to prevent spring damage due to overload and coil bind.

Did you notice a loose inner plate?

The springs can seldom be a perfect fit in both the slots of the gear and slots of the basket. Always a small gap so the springs get a beating in all these types of dampers. Some manufacturers leave massive gaps at some of the spring ends when new. Gives a progressive rate to the damping as more springs are brought into service as the load and deflection increase. The springs are designed to take it.
Don't try die springs. Don't stand the cycles. This example is from a similar torque, capacity engine.


"Main reason for stripping was to get rid of the vibration". Was that the idle vibration or while you ride?

Having the hub and pressure plate reversed is as here quite common. First time I saw this was on a Honda CX500 and plenty of other Honda's since. Mechanical cam by lever pushing the pressure plate off rather than hydraulic as in these. It keeps the loose pressure plate and other plates that float about and change their center closer to the shafts bearings (less cantilever or overhung mass on the shaft effect) so any vibration due to this out of balance has less effect.
The vibration was 4K to 5k and much worse as the throttle was eased on the over run, strangely it almost disappeared if the clutch lever was pulled in slightly ( not enough to slip) just the clearance plus, some do it and others don't, this gave me the clue that some thing was out of balance and the occilation was steadied by the contact of the release bearing.
This vibration really became a pain on a long run so had to be fixed, BMW not interested.
Really pleased with the results and as the Barnett plates fitted have a great reputation in this application and are now fitted I am going to fit a slipper clutch, as another minor problem is the reluctance for the revs to blip cleanly on the downshifts from high speeds, this is also a known fault, seems the air box gets stuffed with unused pressure on the overrun and the fuel cut off to the injectors combine to give this problem, a re map didn't cure it so a slipper clutch will take care of it.
Also both my other bikes have slipper clutches, a 675r Daytona and an HP2sport, this one I retro fitted as it was a real pain, worse than the K.
On your video you show the new main springs to be at least 2mm longer than the ones removed from the K clutch showing how much they had shrunk...... Are you now saying you think they were made this way, surely know one would design something that rattles around like they do on idle intentionally !!!
As soon as the weather warms up I will put in a couple of thousand miles then inspect it all again and if all is well will fit the Suter slipper clutch.... Fingers crossed
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Old 01-23-2016, 03:59 AM
Bengarzy Bengarzy is offline
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bengarzy
The vibration was 4K to 5k and much worse as the throttle was eased on the over run, strangely it almost disappeared if the clutch lever was pulled in slightly ( not enough to slip) just the clearance plus, some do it and others don't, this gave me the clue that some thing was out of balance and the occilation was steadied by the contact of the release bearing.
This vibration really became a pain on a long run so had to be fixed, BMW not interested.
Really pleased with the results and as the Barnett plates fitted have a great reputation in this application and are now fitted I am going to fit a slipper clutch, another minor problem is the reluctance for the revs to blip cleanly on the downshifts from high speeds, this is also a known fault, seems the air box gets stuffed with unused pressure on the overrun and the fuel cut off to the injectors combine to give this problem, a re map didn't cure it so a slipper clutch will take care of it.
Also both my other bikes have slipper clutches, a 675r Daytona and an HP2sport, this one I retro fitted as it was a real pain, worse than the K.
On your video you show the new main springs to be at least 2mm longer than the ones removed from the K clutch showing how much they had shrunk...... Are you now saying you think they were made this way, surely know one would design something that rattles around like they do on idle intentionally !!!
As soon as the weather warms up I will put in a couple of thousand miles then inspect it all again and if all is well will fit the Suter slipper clutch.... Fingers crossed
At least it will be properly engineered, not like the die cast crap that has such a short life that instead of being able to buy a set of clutch plates you have to have a complete assembly😡
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Old 01-23-2016, 09:25 AM
fourhundred4 fourhundred4 is offline
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bengarzy
The vibration was 4K to 5k and much worse as the throttle was eased on the over run, strangely it almost disappeared if the clutch lever was pulled in slightly ( not enough to slip) just the clearance plus, some do it and others don't, this gave me the clue that some thing was out of balance and the occilation was steadied by the contact of the release bearing.

That's why I asked which vibration? You describe the same vibration that some have cured by changing a thrust washer in the generator drive. Big thread on that topic. Most only got to change the washer by disturbing the whole clutch. My take is that the vibration is more likely clutch related. After all the damper in the basket does know if you are driving or on the over run. The alternator drive will not - only experience a lifting of the baskets drive gear a little on its bearing when driving, and a lowering of the gear on the over run. Perhaps a shimmy of the basket drive gear as is it fluctuates quickly from over run to no drive and back.

Pulling the lever slightly puts pressure on the clutch from the slave cylinder for certain. It also lets the friction plates and steel plates start to shuffle a little but not slip. Both actions damping any vibration caused by the weak clutch basket damper. That was the test devised for diagnosing clutch basket originating vibration in clutches I developed modifications for a good few years ago.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bengarzy
On your video you show the new main springs to be at least 2mm longer than the ones removed from the K clutch showing how much they had shrunk...... Are you now saying you think they were made this way, surely know one would design something that rattles around like they do on idle intentionally !!!

The stock springs and those I have made are a snug (not tight) fit in the gear and basket slots. Pre loading to get them in is not good as they never relax to allow them to rotate a fraction under the no deflection condition that they will pass through in normal life. Springs that fit tight and can't rotate suffer damage to coils and their ends as the wear is always in the same place they touch (rub against) the housing and gear.

The stock springs start to rattle after just new because the spring responsible for damping the whole 5.5 kg of clutch mass at idle is not up to its job. The main drive springs will also have shrunk a whisker or at least had the high spots worn of their ends and you have a recipe for rattle as the engine accelerates and decelerates the clutch with every firing stroke and compression stroke respectively. The engine has no flywheel to speak of and tries to use the clutch as one at idle. Pull the lever all the way in at idle and the rattle is gone. Because you disconnected half of the mass from being a flywheel and the idle damping spring can now cope with this.

I must add that after a fair mileage there are other factors aggravated by the poor damping over those miles. Correct these with a full Clutch Basket modification and you should have a clutch basket that lasts the same as in any other manufacturers engine. Hopefully that will be the life of the engine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bengarzy
At least it will be properly engineered, not like the die cast crap that has such a short life that instead of being able to buy a set of clutch plates you have to have a complete assembly��

After buying a set of every after market plate set available to inspect and see if up to the job, I just finished building a new set of much better than stock clutch frictions and steels into a standard clutch hub. Includes an extra pair of plates over stock to cope with the load, spread any wear over more surface area and smooth the take off from rest. Built in special finish to the steels to reduce stick/drag and improve plate separation so you don't get as much of that clunk going from neutral to first. Fitted by the big four Japanese manufacturers there as standard - the quality is top rate. Will be able to buy replacement plates separately if required in future too. The load bearing area between friction plate tang and basket splines is better than stock to reduce notching and far greater than any after market plates on the market. This modification also includes the lubrication upgrade to keep the wet clutch thoroughly wet for which ever BMW version is in the bike. BMW revised their lubrication flow four times to my knowledge. And still their plates wear out, wear unevenly and squawk prematurely. Dare I say it's effectively a Japanese clutch to sort it out but modified and put together here in the UK. Worst case cost the whole modification with new plates, delivery and time included will be two thirds the cost from BMW here in the UK.
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Old 01-23-2016, 10:32 AM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

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Originally Posted by fourhundred4
That's why I asked which vibration? You describe the same vibration that some have cured by changing a thrust washer in the generator drive. Big thread on that topic. Most only got to change the washer by disturbing the whole clutch. My take is that the vibration is more likely clutch related. After all the damper in the basket does know if you are driving or on the over run. The alternator drive will not - only experience a lifting of the baskets drive gear a little on its bearing when driving, and a lowering of the gear on the over run. Perhaps a shimmy of the basket drive gear as is it fluctuates quickly from over run to no drive and back.

Pulling the lever slightly puts pressure on the clutch from the slave cylinder for certain. It also lets the friction plates and steel plates start to shuffle a little but not slip. Both actions damping any vibration caused by the weak clutch basket damper. That was the test devised for diagnosing clutch basket originating vibration in clutches I developed modifications for a good few years ago.



The stock springs and those I have made are a snug (not tight) fit in the gear and basket slots. Pre loading to get them in is not good as they never relax to allow them to rotate a fraction under the no deflection condition that they will pass through in normal life. Springs that fit tight and can't rotate suffer damage to coils and their ends as the wear is always in the same place they touch (rub against) the housing and gear.

The stock springs start to rattle after just new because the spring responsible for damping the whole 5.5 kg of clutch mass at idle is not up to its job. The main drive springs will also have shrunk a whisker or at least had the high spots worn of their ends and you have a recipe for rattle as the engine accelerates and decelerates the clutch with every firing stroke and compression stroke respectively. The engine has no flywheel to speak of and tries to use the clutch as one at idle. Pull the lever all the way in at idle and the rattle is gone. Because you disconnected half of the mass from being a flywheel and the idle damping spring can now cope with this.

I must add that after a fair mileage there are other factors aggravated by the poor damping over those miles. Correct these with a full Clutch Basket modification and you should have a clutch basket that lasts the same as in any other manufacturers engine. Hopefully that will be the life of the engine.



After buying a set of every after market plate set available to inspect and see if up to the job, I just finished building a new set of much better than stock clutch frictions and steels into a standard clutch hub. Includes an extra pair of plates over stock to cope with the load, spread any wear over more surface area and smooth the take off from rest. Built in special finish to the steels to reduce stick/drag and improve plate separation so you don't get as much of that clunk going from neutral to first. Fitted by the big four Japanese manufacturers there as standard - the quality is top rate. Will be able to buy replacement plates separately if required in future too. The load bearing area between friction plate tang and basket splines is better than stock to reduce notching and far greater than any after market plates on the market. This modification also includes the lubrication upgrade to keep the wet clutch thoroughly wet for which ever BMW version is in the bike. BMW revised their lubrication flow four times to my knowledge. And still their plates wear out, wear unevenly and squawk prematurely. Dare I say it's effectively a Japanese clutch to sort it out but modified and put together here in the UK. Worst case cost the whole modification with new plates, delivery and time included will be two thirds the cost from BMW here in the UK.

Well I am sure between us there must be some improvement on what's dished out from the factory, will report back at the end of the summer and I have had a look.
By the way I made a new thrust washer to take up the end float of that gear, didn't make any difference to my engine.
When accelerating the vibration was there but got a lot worse as the throttle was neutral or closed, at that point a little pressure on the clutch lever made it fade away but as soon as the pressure was off it was back, never got better or worse from new up to the current 8000 miles.
There was also zero clutch wear ( looked brand new and all nice and oily) and I think this may be because I click into neutral as I roll to a stop, I never hold the clutch in at all. I often watch guys at the traffic lights and they nearly all sit there for the duration with the thing in gear and clutch pulled in, my take is that's what these clutches particularly don't like because it's always the plates at the back of the clutch that are worn out (my dealer gave me 3 assemblies).
Any way time will tell, thanks for all your comments and info.
By the way a company I have an association with since 1982 works with Ricardo, will see if there is any info I can get....... It's not easy as they are extremely secretive, rightly so too.
One last thing, the clutch slip that besets these things comes on instantly without abuse, not checked but think when the pack gets a bit thin the pressure plate runs out of pressure mechanically, like its on a stop?
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Old 01-24-2016, 04:24 PM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bengarzy
Well I am sure between us there must be some improvement on what's dished out from the factory, will report back at the end of the summer and I have had a look.
By the way I made a new thrust washer to take up the end float of that gear, didn't make any difference to my engine.
When accelerating the vibration was there but got a lot worse as the throttle was neutral or closed, at that point a little pressure on the clutch lever made it fade away but as soon as the pressure was off it was back, never got better or worse from new up to the current 8000 miles.
There was also zero clutch wear ( looked brand new and all nice and oily) and I think this may be because I click into neutral as I roll to a stop, I never hold the clutch in at all. I often watch guys at the traffic lights and they nearly all sit there for the duration with the thing in gear and clutch pulled in, my take is that's what these clutches particularly don't like because it's always the plates at the back of the clutch that are worn out (my dealer gave me 3 assemblies).
Any way time will tell, thanks for all your comments and info.
By the way a company I have an association with since 1982 works with Ricardo, will see if there is any info I can get....... It's not easy as they are extremely secretive, rightly so too.
One last thing, the clutch slip that besets these things comes on instantly without abuse, not checked but think when the pack gets a bit thin the pressure plate runs out of pressure mechanically, like its on a stop?

Actually, if you think about it, I bet most owners are loath to put it in neutral because they crunch so bad going back into gear......... And why do they crunch so bad..... Because they mostly have bad clutch drag so..... When you leave it in gear with the clutch in.... The clutch drag is wearing itself out, in particular the pair deep inside the pack.
All three assemblies I have here, these pair completely worn out but the rest of the pack is in good order.
The more I think about it the more I see BMW with a real problem here that no amount of minor up dates would cure.
I also think four hundred4 has the best solutions for these problems for everyone but as usual I will do my own thing as its what I enjoy.
Next, a slipper clutch conversion now the vibes are gone.
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Old 01-24-2016, 04:34 PM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Would love to hear the details about the slipper clutch. I always thought it rather silly that this bike doesn't have one. I had a 1983 Honda V65 Magna that had a slipper clutch. It worked great. None of the bikes since have had one. I miss them both, slipper clutch and bike.
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Old 02-26-2016, 02:48 PM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

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Would love to hear the details about the slipper clutch. I always thought it rather silly that this bike doesn't have one. I had a 1983 Honda V65 Magna that had a slipper clutch. It worked great. None of the bikes since have had one. I miss them both, slipper clutch and bike.
STM Slipper clutch on its way, it's only listed for a K1200S, however I have a complete 1200 clutch and gear and if there is a difference I will mix and match if need be. I have a feeling it will fit straight in.
Now the clutch works properly ( brand new it squawked and juddered) and vibes gone worth a gamble I think, $945 a real good deal, should be here in a couple of weeks, will report back when fitted...... Or not😎
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Old 03-05-2016, 11:09 AM
fourhundred4 fourhundred4 is offline
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Had my head down rebuilding clutch baskets and hubs for owners the last month or so. Neglected the thread so here's where we are in a video.
Just one correction is that all clutches will benefit from the anti judder spring long term. Built some with and some without.
https://youtu.be/XbZB3wFWp1E

John
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Old 03-05-2016, 12:43 PM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

John, I can't get that link to work. Is it me?
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Old 03-05-2016, 02:10 PM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Behaving now. Possible I posted the link before YouTube upload had completed.
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Old 03-05-2016, 11:35 PM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

So when you rebuild a customers BMW clutch, you supply a set of the dimpled plates, a set of friction plates, and rework the springs... the complete pack it ready to go back in the bike after your finished. Or does the customer need to come up with steel plates and friction plates to complete your work.
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Old 03-06-2016, 12:10 AM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

That Belleville (spring) washer and the half friction pad side, might not be the greatest. Would it be better to use a Barnett pack with the modified basket/hub?
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Old 03-06-2016, 10:43 AM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Quote:
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So when you rebuild a customers BMW clutch, you supply a set of the dimpled plates, a set of friction plates, and rework the springs... the complete pack it ready to go back in the bike after your finished. Or does the customer need to come up with steel plates and friction plates to complete your work.

Rebuild of a hub (the part BMW call a lamellar pack) involves re-finishing of the friction bearing surfaces if damaged by the standard plates/lubrication set up. And the revision to the oil flow - much more to that than adding an extra oil hole. The fitting of a brand new set of dimpled steel plates. A brand new set of friction plates. Brand new three matched parts to create the anti shudder/judder assembly - diaphragm spring (belleville), its special seat and the matched thickness friction plate. The plates used will vary in thickness to make up for any material removed in re-finishing the friction bearing surfaces. This comes assembled and ready to fit in a basket that I also modified or the bikes existing basket if required.

Parts I can supply to facilitate the rebuild of a hub by the owner involves a kit of brand new dimpled steel plates. A brand new set of friction plates. Brand new three matched parts to create the anti shudder assembly - diaphragm spring (belleville), its special seat and the matched thickness friction plate. The owner would have to assemble these into their existing hub.

Rebuild of a clutch basket to get rid of that spring rattling noise at idle involves the strip down and rebuild using which ever parts I find are required once inside. Many need new damping coil springs and the internal bearings re-finishing and lubricating.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beech
That Belleville (spring) washer and the half friction pad side, might not be the greatest. Would it be better to use a Barnett pack with the modified basket/hub?
back end of 2015 I rebuilt a hub and the basket for an owner who supplied his own set of Barnett plates. Basket no longer rattles at idle but not been out much to road test the plates due to winter so no conclusive results thus far. I had to make up an extra thickness steel plate for them to account for metal worn off his old hub face. This face worn so bad by the standard "half friction pad" that had run with inadequate hub lubrication in his 1300 engine.

I bought and inspected all types of after market plates listed to see which would be best to offer when I rebuild a hub. Quality varied plenty but all were the same in that they don't have the three matched parts to create the anti shudder assembly - diaphragm spring (belleville), its special seat and the matched thickness friction plate. As a general rule the 1200 clutches don't have these as standard from BMW, but need them to rid the clutch of shudder at take off. As a general rule many 1300 engines have them as standard but they are too worn to put back in to get the full benefit of the new plates. I've done a load of testing and measuring which makes me believe the anti shudder assembly is (unfortunately) going to be necessary for a long and happy clutch life.
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Old 03-06-2016, 12:36 PM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Thank you for the clear details of this. It all makes sense.
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Old 03-06-2016, 02:59 PM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

@Bengarzy,

Any update on the slipper clutch?

@fourhundred4, any thoughts on doing a slipper clutch mod like Bengarzy?
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Old 03-18-2016, 05:29 PM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

I have been following this thread for the past while because I am the proud owner of a K1220s.. and I like it enough to make it right. I think I am on the mark saying a lot of people like me truly appreciate 404's efforts over the past few months and will probably be looking him up, I know I will.

Again, thanks, good to have you as a member.
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Old 03-19-2016, 06:45 AM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Thank you for your support. Just replied to your email.
John
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Old 03-29-2016, 02:49 AM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bengarzy
STM Slipper clutch on its way, it's only listed for a K1200S, however I have a problemcomplete 1200 clutch and gear and if there is a difference I will mix and match if need be. I have a feeling it will fit straight in.
Now the clutch works properly ( brand new it squawked and juddered) and vibes gone worth a gamble I think, $945 a real good deal, should be here in a couple of weeks, will report back when fitted...... Or not😎

STM slipper clutch installed last night, listed only for the K1200S so it was a bit of a gamble.
Engineering is superb, no problems fitting and all works ok on the paddock stand.
The only thing that may be a minor problem is the clutch push rod may be a little too long as it pushes the slave cylinder piston back into the cylinder further than standard, and as the clutch wears over time it may bottom out and cause clutch slip, will check after road test and rectify if not within limits.
Otherwise this now means all my bikes have a slipper clutch so no rear wheel hopping and judder on the downhill hair pins😎
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Old 03-29-2016, 11:48 AM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bengarzy
STM slipper clutch installed last night, listed only for the K1200S so it was a bit of a gamble.
Engineering is superb, no problems fitting and all works ok on the paddock stand.
The only thing that may be a minor problem is the clutch push rod may be a little too long as it pushes the slave cylinder piston back into the cylinder further than standard, and as the clutch wears over time it may bottom out and cause clutch slip, will check after road test and rectify if not within limits.
Otherwise this now means all my bikes have a slipper clutch so no rear wheel hopping and judder on the downhill hair pins😎

Update.
Road tested for 130 miles today, couldn't keep me off it!!
Having previously re engineered the primary gear/clutch basket and eliminated the over run vibration that was so irritating ( my friends identical bike doesn't do it) I tried to find a slipper clutch for a K1300 but all that was available was for a K1200, in the end I found an STM unit in the States at just over 900 dollars (1400 over here) and decided to risk it.
All fitted in an hour and a half and works absolutely perfectly.
I double checked the slave cylinder travel and decided to add a collar at 4mm long to the BMW push rod to get the piston at mid travel so no chance of topping out when dis engaged or bottoming out causing clutch slip.
So there you have it, if yours is one that doesn't vibrate a set of Barnet Carbon plates and an STM slipper clutch conversion and you have a more sporty K that you can rush into a hairpin going down the box quick as you like with no lock ups or judder..... Fantastic, and for me, well worth all the effort as the vibes were spoiling this most amazing machine.
However I do feel that if a retired engineer in a shed in Suffolk can fix it without to much thought and no help from anyone then BMW should have fixed this problem that afflicts some Ks a long long time ago don't you?.
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Old 04-04-2016, 02:20 PM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Giving this thread a bump due to it being one of the best write ups for a common problem.
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Old 04-04-2016, 05:12 PM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Quote:
Originally Posted by fourhundred4
In my experience the stock springs shrink because they are taken past the elastic limit too many times for their material. Put another way they are not stiff enough nor are there enough of them for the load they have to carry. They end up being squashed further than they were designed which damages the structure of the steel. Luckier than in some engines where the springs start to break up and come out of the basket once too far past their limit.

Extending the spigot part of your spacers is good and will prevent them being coil bound (squashed very very far that the coils hit each other) if your spigots are just the right length.

Your original shrunk springs might still continue to shorten further over time because your spacers now take them yet further past their original elastic limit - which will probably still occur before your spigots touch. If the spigots start to touch you lose any damping and your damper is effectively solid.

This clutch basket damper works to soften judder caused by any non linear friction take up as we set off from rest or during gear changes. This could be rider or poor friction plate induced judder.

The main job of these dampers is to smooth out the engines peak torque spikes into something the rest of the transmission can cope with. These spikes occur at every fire of the engine. That's at all times and twice for every revolution of the four cylinder, four stroke engine. Not just at take off. These engines don't have a conventional flywheel on the crankshaft which would perform much of the smoothing required. The mass of the clutch is the next point after crankshaft its self to give any sort of flywheel damping effect to the engine. Some of these engines don't idle correctly because the damper has gone so weak and so far out of sync that at certain times there's not enough inertia feeding back to take the engine over to the next firing stroke or the "inertia bounce" of the heavy clutch/flywheel works against this and is enough to stop the engine. Lack of a flywheel is why many racing engines need a constantly blipped throttle..

These dampers also allow the designers to specify a lighter build of transmission. Loss of damping where there is no give at all while travelling will load the transmission above the designed level. This can lead to early friction plate failure due to overload slipping under near and full throttle. With long term risk of gearbox bearing, gear, dog and shaft problems due to overload if the "built in safety fuse" of clutch slip does not intervene to protect.

I had tested for over 700 hard miles before I fitted the STM slipper clutch and inspected all the drive springs, they hadn't shrunk again at all and the ends of the spigots showed no signs of touching together so all good.
Will strip again at the end of this year as I have now done some other major changes to my spare basket that I am going to try as I feel there is more improvements to be made, some of it is a bit radical but it won't be unsafe just different.
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Old 04-18-2016, 02:23 PM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

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Old 04-18-2016, 06:59 PM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Great thread.

Maybe go into detail as to what specific parts are need and possibly a "How To" thread.

Maybe a mod can make it a sticky.

I'm sure all interested in this would appreciate it.

I know I would.

Thanks.


Mike
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Old 04-18-2016, 10:19 PM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

The only thing missing is a source of a billet clutch basket. I've made some phone calls and come up with almost nothing. By that I mean one company said if I came up with 25 hard orders they would consider making them. There is one I haven't called yet but their baskets cost almost $600. But I'd really love to put that STM slipper clutch in a billet basket. So, think we could get enough orders?
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Old 04-19-2016, 05:36 AM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

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Originally Posted by cstumpf750
The only thing missing is a source of a billet clutch basket. I've made some phone calls and come up with almost nothing. By that I mean one company said if I came up with 25 hard orders they would consider making them. There is one I haven't called yet but their baskets cost almost $600. But I'd really love to put that STM slipper clutch in a billet basket. So, think we could get enough orders?

I would have one, I also got a price for a 20 off that was scary too.

After our Mugello trip in May, got another radical modification to make to completely eradicate all the anomalies I have found in this gear/basket, more soon.
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Old 04-28-2016, 02:40 AM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

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Originally Posted by OrganicMechanic
Giving this thread a bump due to it being one of the best write ups for a common problem.

Just noticed your post and the headline "I VOID WARRANTIES"

Obviously the modifications I have made would affect my warranty but my dealer said that they would only refuse warranty claims if the failed part that has to be returned to BMW were altered in any way or directly responsible for the failure of another part.
Also, as far as I'm concerned, my enjoyment of the bike is the most important thing to me and the vibration and poor clutch action was spoiling that.
Strangely I don't do my own servicing but have that done by the supplying dealer, when I eventually sell the bike the slipper clutch will be removed and all back to standard.
The main reason I bothered to get so involved in this problem is I find the rest of the bike so stunningly good in all other aspects, a couple of brighter bulbs in the headlights.... ....... Perfect
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Old 04-28-2016, 01:51 PM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Hugh, After a careful read of this entire thread I am left quite simply in awe of your extensive skillset. I "restored" a 1976 Triumph TR6 ( the car) and after seeing what you accomplished my Triumph experience resembles working on a tinkertoy! Well done and certainly glad to have you aboard.

Ken
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Old 04-28-2016, 01:51 PM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

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Originally Posted by Bengarzy
Just noticed your post and the headline "I VOID WARRANTIES"

Obviously the modifications I have made would affect my warranty but my dealer said that they would only refuse warranty claims if the failed part that has to be returned to BMW were altered in any way or directly responsible for the failure of another part.
Also, as far as I'm concerned, my enjoyment of the bike is the most important thing to me and the vibration and poor clutch action was spoiling that.
Strangely I don't do my own servicing but have that done by the supplying dealer, when I eventually sell the bike the slipper clutch will be removed and all back to standard.
The main reason I bothered to get so involved in this problem is I find the rest of the bike so stunningly good in all other aspects, a couple of brighter bulbs in the headlights.... ....... Perfect

Woah there, Thats just my sig...

do a quick scan of some of the post I have out there, it was not meant to be directed toward this post or any other. Self directed really. I commend any one that has the insight to improve a design that has a known failure point. Hell I am using this thread as a guide to improving my own, seeing how I am slipping at 6k and above with little effort to do so...
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Old 04-28-2016, 04:30 PM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Quote:
Originally Posted by OrganicMechanic
Woah there, Thats just my sig...

do a quick scan of some of the post I have out there, it was not meant to be directed toward this post or any other. Self directed really. I commend any one that has the insight to improve a design that has a known failure point. Hell I am using this thread as a guide to improving my own, seeing how I am slipping at 6k and above with little effort to do so...

Sorry, didn't mean it to sound as straight as it did when I re read it...........not at all, really just saying to everyone that the warranty side of things suddenly became less important to me than the cure for the problems all coming from one area that I was convinced in my own mind could be sorted. My dealer said in the past a new primary gear had made the vibration worse on some.
When I told them what I had done to improve things they said they weren't allowed to split the gear and basket as its supplied in one piece by the factory, that's why it's riveted.
Ben

Last edited by Bengarzy : 04-28-2016 at 05:02 PM. Reason: Word missing
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Old 04-28-2016, 04:59 PM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Quote:
Originally Posted by MoRider
Hugh, After a careful read of this entire thread I am left quite simply in awe of your extensive skillset. I "restored" a 1976 Triumph TR6 ( the car) and after seeing what you accomplished my Triumph experience resembles working on a tinkertoy! Well done and certainly glad to have you aboard.

Ken
Thanks for that. Don't envy you the restoration of the TR6, in my younger days I worked extensively on the Triumph range, the TRs were the best, the Stag, Dolomite, Sprint and TR7 were a total disaster.

Back to the K, I have a spare primary gear/basket which will be better than the one I'm testing now. It will have no scissor gear ( teeth all machined off) and the body of this gear is now welded to the back of the primary gear. The reason for this is I think this gear is the real culprit of the strange vibration a lot of us get, as it's only to keep the primary drive from chattering on idle I'm willing to put up with that ( non of my other Jap multi's had one) plus there are many other culprits that rattle on idle on the K anyway.
Now that it's in one piece I have made the sandwich between the basket and the back plate have just one component instead of two in the middle.
My theory is this..... I balanced the gear and basket as an assembly, the scissor gear in the middle of the sandwich is, on its own, naturally out of balance and only in contact with its surroundings by a weak spring that keeps the teeth in tension and a bellville washer that keeps the whole thing weakly clamped together from the back of the gear via the back plate and the ally clutch basket so some sort of gyration in the middle at certain revs is probable, joining it to the main gear and reassembling and balancing it all should stop it.
This was the only way I could think of to prove it one way or another and the gear assembly was free too, one way or another the whole thing is now very much like a Yamaha unit and let's face it BMW did have a good look at what the Jap bikes were like when they went four across the frame didn't they. On top of that it's an easy thing to work on and I am really enjoying the exercise.
Be done when new bearings arrive.
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Old 04-28-2016, 05:39 PM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Quote:
Originally Posted by MoRider
Hugh, After a careful read of this entire thread I am left quite simply in awe of your extensive skillset. I "restored" a 1976 Triumph TR6 ( the car) and after seeing what you accomplished my Triumph experience resembles working on a tinkertoy! Well done and certainly glad to have you aboard.

Ken
You should have seen what I got up to when I was 17, I had a 650 AJS twin that had separate cylinders and heads and a crankcase that was split vertically between them, if I thrashed it it leaked like a sieve so I machined off half an inch off the bottom of the barrels, cut and filed a half inch thick ally base gasket with a pad saw and bingo, a rigid engine and no leaks.
Then at 18 I wanted to go sidecar racing.........banned from driving...... So I made the entire chassis, forks and swing arm in my dads garage. My favourite bit was the AC fuel pump driven off the top of the gear box by a cam where the kick start ratchet was.
I was just happy making things, later I designed and made the best sporting air rifles for a 20 odd year period, I had 9 patents tied up in those. When I look back I always did things different. Off to Italy on the K in a couple of weeks to see if Valentino can stuff the Spaniards again........ With no vibes or clutch judder. Ben
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Old 04-29-2016, 02:13 AM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Hi Bengarzy. I read with interest and picture in my mind the revisions. You seem to be changing many things. Please let us know if you come up with anything conclusive. Such as are you staying with the shims you put in your springs? Did you weigh the new slipper hub you were trying. Those sort of things are all going to change the inertia of the rotating mass and stiffness of the whole assembly. Could see changes to the natural resonant frequency and other knock on effects.

I just started basket modification number fifteen for a member. Same modification as the first and others Ive done. For me BMW got the design and spec right for the layout and power characteristics in theory at least. Its just that the durability and a bit of previous experience were lacking when they went into production. Its all good looking robust engineering but now with the benfit of hindsight (having seen a total of near half a million miles on them) there are a few flaws. It is these which I seek to address.

Many owners write asking for advice, parts and help. Sorry to those I have not yet got round to finding a reply for. I work through these when I have free time.

Clutch hub holding tools available. Only correct way to get the clutch out and back in again without risking damade to a relatively delicate transmission.
http://www.cymarcbikeparts.co.uk/k-s...tool-194-p.asp
One stumbling block seems to be BMW dealers reluctance to supply or at least help owners select and order
the correct clutch hub holding tool. To this end I sent a design over to a BMW after market parts business I've worked with in the past. They made a few and are now able to supply off the shelf. Please let us know if they measure up to the job.
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Old 04-29-2016, 12:33 PM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Quote:
Originally Posted by fourhundred4
Hi Bengarzy. I read with interest and picture in my mind the revisions. You seem to be changing many things. Please let us know if you come up with anything conclusive. Such as are you staying with the shims you put in your springs? Did you weigh the new slipper hub you were trying. Those sort of things are all going to change the inertia of the rotating mass and stiffness of the whole assembly. Could see changes to the natural resonant frequency and other knock on effects.

I just started basket modification number fifteen for a member. Same modification as the first and others Ive done. For me BMW got the design and spec right for the layout and power characteristics in theory at least. Its just that the durability and a bit of previous experience were lacking when they went into production. Its all good looking robust engineering but now with the benfit of hindsight (having seen a total of near half a million miles on them) there are a few flaws. It is these which I seek to address.

Many owners write asking for advice, parts and help. Sorry to those I have not yet got round to finding a reply for. I work through these when I have free time.

Clutch hub holding tools available. Only correct way to get the clutch out and back in again without risking damade to a relatively delicate transmission.
http://www.cymarcbikeparts.co.uk/k-s...tool-194-p.asp
One stumbling block seems to be BMW dealers reluctance to supply or at least help owners select and order
the correct clutch hub holding tool. To this end I sent a design over to a BMW after market parts business I've worked with in the past. They made a few and are now able to supply off the shelf. Please let us know if they measure up to the job.

Hi John,
I had done around 1000 miles when I pulled it apart to fit the slipper clutch (STM) it went straight in. The top hat bushes were exactly as I made them and the springs had not shrunk at all even though I rode it very hard to test.
As the ends had made no contact in the middle the springs don't get any where near coil bound in use. Each spigot was 9mm long and they would have touched 1.5 MM. before coil binding (from memory) so I think the springs are poorly prepared for the job by the makers.
That basket will remain as is and the second hand one will be radically altered as in my previous post as I want to see if it can be improved on (but only for me, wouldn't do it on any one else's).
The slipper clutch is all machined from solid and the floating part of the inner hub is better located than standard. I used the Barnett clutch pack as supplied (no bellville rings) as my other problem was a bad crunch going into gear at standstill and this does steal some separation. It now engages silently, so much so it's sometimes dog to dog and you have to let the clutch out to get some movement in the box.
Weight wise it's probably 30% heavier as the ramps and balls are substantial but as a rotating mass it's nothing compared to the full diameter basket and gears.
Having seen lots of 1200 and 1300s with big mileage on the original clutch and my clutch pack measured exactly what it should after 8,000 miles I do wonder if it is more a user problem or lots of town riding than mechanical, let's face it the engineering is all the same ( within a bit) but people and use most certainly are not. The spare I have came from a commuter bike in London and had only done 16k miles.
I hope to get the other basket and gear in before I start our European rides starting in May, waiting on a couple of parts at the moment.
By the way I use 10mm button head stainless for the three pillars, the heads are undercut to the 11 MM. hole size I drill the back plate to so it's sort of a dowel bolt (solid carbide drill required as its hardened steel) and Loctite.
Ben
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Old 04-29-2016, 12:47 PM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

MAX BMW parts will sell you any factory tool you want to purchase. A good place.
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Old 04-30-2016, 09:16 PM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

My 11/2005 K1200R with 12K on it has started to grind a little.
I've had it for 6 weeks. It had 9K when I bought it. It's frequently used to commute about 35kms daily.

It is starting to rattle more. It probably did a little when I first got it, but it's worse now.

It smooths out beautifully under power, but can grind on the overrun.

The clutch lever only needs a cm or so pull to work.

So far, no shudder, no howling noises, no slipping clutch.

I've never pulled a clutch basket out as my mechanical background is with airheads and their dry clutch. I've only ever done that once.

What can I do myself in my shed to help this, at least in the short term? I have tools, but I'm not a machinist. If it's just a disassembly, clean &/or replace task then I'd have a crack.
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Old 05-01-2016, 05:59 PM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Quote:
Originally Posted by boxerboy81
My 11/2005 K1200R with 12K on it has started to grind a little.
I've had it for 6 weeks. It had 9K when I bought it. It's frequently used to commute about 35kms daily.

It is starting to rattle more. It probably did a little when I first got it, but it's worse now.

It smooths out beautifully under power, but can grind on the overrun.

The clutch lever only needs a cm or so pull to work.

So far, no shudder, no howling noises, no slipping clutch.

I've never pulled a clutch basket out as my mechanical background is with airheads and their dry clutch. I've only ever done that once.



What can I do myself in my shed to help this, at least in the short term? I have tools, but I'm not a machinist. If it's just a disassembly, clean &/or replace task then I'd have a crack.

To be honest I wouldn't advise doing the job as its not straight forward if you haven't got at least a pillar drill and some engineering back ground.
Fitting a set of after market clutch plates is no problem but if it's any more than that you need the specialist help from John (4hundredfour) on this forum, he has a system he has developed to get the clutch working properly and gets rid of all the rattles and backlash in the Cush drive.
It would involve sending the entire gear, basket and clutch to him. The up side is its about 50% of the cost of buying a new assembly from BMW ( that's all they will supply, no plates or bearings, only the entire basket and gear ready to fit, scandalous) John will rebuild it to a far better spec than the factory assembly too so the problems won't return.
Talk to him, see what he has to say.
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Old 05-01-2016, 11:46 PM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

^^ Thanks Ben.
I'm in Oz and the turn around time means 3-4 weeks minimum I'd guess. This is a daily rider and I doubt I could afford that time.
Atm the bike is just becoming a little noisy with some grind on the overrun. If that doesn't hurt things any further then I'll just wear it for the moment.

What if I took it to a machinist to do the hole and cleaned it up and reinstalled it myself? That's gotta help some?
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Old 05-02-2016, 12:18 AM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

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Originally Posted by cstumpf750
The only thing missing is a source of a billet clutch basket. I've made some phone calls and come up with almost nothing. By that I mean one company said if I came up with 25 hard orders they would consider making them. There is one I haven't called yet but their baskets cost almost $600. But I'd really love to put that STM slipper clutch in a billet basket. So, think we could get enough orders?
If you're in the USA maybe try this bloke in Nevada...https://www.facebook.com/PulsePerformanceParts?ref=hl
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Old 05-05-2016, 12:04 AM
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Re: K1300s clutch problems

Quote:
Originally Posted by fourhundred4
Had my head down rebuilding clutch baskets and hubs for owners the last month or so. Neglected the thread so here's where we are in a video.
Just one correction is that all clutches will benefit from the anti judder spring long term. Built some with and some without.
https://youtu.be/XbZB3wFWp1E

John
Hi John, just spotted on your last video the the release rod has a wear dimple in its end showing that the slave cylinder ball has rotated and the flat is out of position...... This pushes the slave cylinder piston to the end of its travel and holds the clutch open slightly ( I know you know this, just trying to explain to other readers) which will cause clutch slip and fluid to be expelled from the reservoir.
I often wonder exactly why this flat was designed into the actuation as the ball onto a hardened rod is going to work better, specially if the release bearing were to fail, in that case with a flat on the ball it would try to spin the slave cylinder piston in its bore as the drag would be many times higher than the point contact of a ball..... On top of that no other manufacturer has a flat
On the push rod ball as it defeats the object entirely...... Stupid Germans😎😎
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