I-BMW.com I-BMW.com

Welcome to the I-BMW.com forums! - You're currently viewing as a limited access guest. By joining our free member supported community, you'll gain access to post/ reply, communicate privately with other members (PM), or globally via "real time chat", respond to polls, upload photos, post classifieds etc. Membership is fast so, Register @ the Ultimate Sport Touring Portal!
Should you not receive an email with activation link, check your SPAM settings or please contact us and include the ID/ email address you registered with.

Go Back   I-BMW.com > BMW K-1200 Series Motorcycles > K1200RS/GT > "KRS/GT" Technical Q&A
User Name
Password
Home Register Gallery Classifieds FAQ Members List Calendar Donate Mark Forums Read

"KRS/GT" Technical Q&A K1200RS/GT Technical Questions/Answers

Vendor Sign Up | Want to see your name in neon blue? | Want a neat reflective sticker for your ride?!

Reply
 
Thread Tools.. Display Modes
  #1  
Old 06-07-2016, 08:56 PM
goolwa1200gt goolwa1200gt is offline
Entering the on-ramp
Post: 2 Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Goolwa SA, SA australia
K1200gt starting problem

my k1200gt (2005, brick motor) won't start first time when cold (10C). Cranks ok, fires and runs at low idle for a few seconds then stops, sometimes with a small cough (backfire). Next start straight away is perfect and starts and runs perfect all day. Any ideas, my thinking is a faulty o2 sensor??
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 06-07-2016, 09:30 PM
rs530's Avatar
rs530 rs530 is online now
Entering the on-ramp
Post: 650 Thanks: 283
Thanked 202 Times in 143 Posts
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Marengo, IL us
Re: K1200gt starting problem

Just an educated guess, my thinking is the fuel pump is not priming, do you hear the fuel pump turn on for a second or two when you turn the key on? When the bike sits over night or longer, sometimes the fuel pressure will leak down, and there won't be enough pressure to fire the injectors, once the bike is running the fuel pump will continue to keep the pressure up, and unless you have a serious injector leaking the pressure will remain constant for the rest of the day. There should be a fuel pump relay, that turns the pump on to pressurize the system when the key is turned on and started button pushed. I'm sure Jean will be along to give you exact details.
__________________
2016 K1300S
Reply With Quote
This I-BMW member either likes, thanks -or- is 'shouting out' to 'rs530' for this post:
  #3  
Old 06-08-2016, 07:03 AM
sailor's Avatar
sailor sailor is online now
K1200RS doctor
Post: 2,214 Thanks: 858
Thanked 1,119 Times in 595 Posts
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Montreal, QC Canada
Re: K1200gt starting problem

Quote:
Originally Posted by goolwa1200gt
my k1200gt (2005, brick motor) won't start first time when cold (10C). Cranks ok, fires and runs at low idle for a few seconds then stops, sometimes with a small cough (backfire). Next start straight away is perfect and starts and runs perfect all day. Any ideas, my thinking is a faulty o2 sensor??

It would be important to know if you are the new owner of this used bike... -OR- if you had the bike for a long time but you are having a new problem (that just appeared). If the latter case applies, what recent maintenance / work was done on this bike?

Many K1200RS and K1200GT of 2003-2004 had an incorrect / problematic Motronic-ECU version that would cause problem on cold start. I would be very surprised if a 2005 model still had this problematic ECU as BMW came out with a better / corrected version in 2004.

If you just bought a used K1200GT, then you may want to check this video on YouTube for symptoms of this problem ECU. Note that engine will die / choke only when throttle is applied. Once engine is warmed up, these symptoms disappear:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iIFvicSViKE

P.S. Edit:
I forgot to answer last part of your post about O2 sensor: during start, even more so for cold start, the O2 sensor is not used by the BOSCH Motronic EFI, hence this cannot be the problem. Only after about 45 sec (when engine is already warm) or 1.5 minutes (if engine was cold) will the O2 sensor feedback be used to go in "close-loop" mode.
__________________
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Jean (Montreal, CANADA)
K1200RS (2002 IceBlue/Red - 95,000 miles)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
K1200RS parts for sale here:
http://www.i-bmw.com/classifieds/sho...500&ppuser=144
++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Reply With Quote
This I-BMW member either likes, thanks -or- is 'shouting out' to 'sailor' for this post:
  #4  
Old 06-08-2016, 08:01 PM
pbegin@burton's Avatar
pbegin@burton pbegin@burton is online now
A skeptic and a pragmatist.
Post: 4,468 Thanks: 65
Thanked 852 Times in 742 Posts
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Burton, BC Canada
Re: K1200gt starting problem

Yeah that.....I fixed that all right.

What was the title of my thread? That I think.....hard to start in cold weather.

10C? Not very cold by my standard.But do you pull the clutch as you start the engine? That is SOP in the rider's manual under "starting in cold weather".

If clutch not pulled you may be dragging the transmission/rear wheel.That's good for a few drops in RPMs.More than a few at just above freezing.....!
__________________
Benelli 50cc at 14
Yamaha RD200 at 16
Yamaha RD350 at 17
Honda CB750F at 18
Honda V45 Sabre at 24
85 BMW K100RS at 28 (Very nice and sorely missed)
90 BMW R100GS at 34 (Too slow, too cranky)
2003 K1200 RS at 53 (Oh Yeah......over 6000RPM)
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 06-08-2016, 10:34 PM
goolwa1200gt goolwa1200gt is offline
Entering the on-ramp
Post: 2 Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Goolwa SA, SA australia
Re: K1200gt starting problem

Thanks for all your comments, much appreciated. As a new forum user please excuse me while I'm learning how to use it properly.
It seems that the problem could be the fuel pressure dropping when not running. If I turn the key first time, let the pump run, turn off, then turn on again, starts and runs OK.
I have had the bike about a year, 40,000km, when purchased. Initially starting without any problems, only recently started having problem, coming into our winter, maybe a coincidence and problem could have nothing to do with cooler weather.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 06-09-2016, 07:19 AM
sailor's Avatar
sailor sailor is online now
K1200RS doctor
Post: 2,214 Thanks: 858
Thanked 1,119 Times in 595 Posts
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Montreal, QC Canada
Re: K1200gt starting problem

Quote:
Originally Posted by goolwa1200gt
Thanks for all your comments, much appreciated. As a new forum user please excuse me while I'm learning how to use it properly.

It seems that the problem could be the fuel pressure dropping when not running. If I turn the key first time, let the pump run, turn off, then turn on again, starts and runs OK.
I have had the bike about a year, 40,000km, when purchased. Initially starting without any problems, only recently started having problem, coming into our winter, maybe a coincidence and problem could have nothing to do with cooler weather.

OK... so based on your description this would rule out the problematic ECU version of most 2003-2004 models (since you said it worked well for 1 year).

HOWEVER, you have NOT answered if any recent work / maintenance was done on bike (close to period of this new problem). By experience, I would say 50% of these problems are caused by something that was recently done.

After the above, the other cases of similar problem are most commonly related to:
(1) engine coolant sensor is defective or connector not seated. This item is critical for EFI system to enrich fueling for cold start. There are ways to "roughly" test this sensor with OhmMeter, but it would be better to ALSO get a fault read-out. Motronic-EFI logged faults can be read with either: GS911 or a dealer's computer.

(2) incorrect free play at throttle-cables. This confuses the EFI system when ignition is turned ON as the Throttle-Position-Sensor (TPS) assumes that the throttle-bodies are always returning normally to their closed idle setting.

(3) intake air leak caused loose of damaged vacuum hose

(4) intake air leak caused by other intake rubber components (around throttle bodies)

Based on your description above, we may be tempted to think low-fuel-pressure is a potential cause. However these EFI system are VERY sensitive to low fuel pressure in ALL running conditions and RPM - hence I would assume this would cause other engine issues when running.

OF COURSE, in all above I am assuming that engine works well once it is warmed up. Otherwise many other items would also need to be checked.
__________________
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Jean (Montreal, CANADA)
K1200RS (2002 IceBlue/Red - 95,000 miles)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
K1200RS parts for sale here:
http://www.i-bmw.com/classifieds/sho...500&ppuser=144
++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 06-09-2016, 12:09 PM
pbegin@burton's Avatar
pbegin@burton pbegin@burton is online now
A skeptic and a pragmatist.
Post: 4,468 Thanks: 65
Thanked 852 Times in 742 Posts
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Burton, BC Canada
Re: K1200gt starting problem

Quote:
Originally Posted by goolwa1200gt
Thanks for all your comments, much appreciated. As a new forum user please excuse me while I'm learning how to use it properly.
It seems that the problem could be the fuel pressure dropping when not running. If I turn the key first time, let the pump run, turn off, then turn on again, starts and runs OK.
I have had the bike about a year, 40,000km, when purchased. Initially starting without any problems, only recently started having problem, coming into our winter, maybe a coincidence and problem could have nothing to do with cooler weather.

I'd say not the fuel pressure.My bike was doing the same and yes turning the ignition On/Off/On and jolting the throttle some made it start better.

I was actually coming here to suggest that.But your bike is a 2005 with the updated TBs with bearings instead of bushings at the throttle shafts so shouldn't show any binding of the butterflies etc as in my case.

Now....Do you pull the clutch in when starting in cold weather?Rather significant extra drag if you don't and the TVA may not react fast enough and the engine will stall.With the scary big Clack of the starter clutch....!

Once started with clutch pulled in....releasing the clutch even in neutral will drop the RPMs momentarily.

Maybe adapt your starting procedure to the cold weather and ride on? Took me a couple years from first noticing the signs until I fixed that.
__________________
Benelli 50cc at 14
Yamaha RD200 at 16
Yamaha RD350 at 17
Honda CB750F at 18
Honda V45 Sabre at 24
85 BMW K100RS at 28 (Very nice and sorely missed)
90 BMW R100GS at 34 (Too slow, too cranky)
2003 K1200 RS at 53 (Oh Yeah......over 6000RPM)
Reply With Quote
This I-BMW member either likes, thanks -or- is 'shouting out' to 'pbegin@burton' for this post:
  #8  
Old 11-23-2018, 05:47 PM
Beech's Avatar
Beech Beech is online now
I-BMW Rider of the Year 2016
Post: 6,875 Thanks: 1,772
Thanked 1,677 Times in 1,280 Posts
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: mount vernon, WA usa
Re: K1200gt starting problem

Old thread, recently a friend with a 2015 GS was having this sort of problem, no start on first try. Two tanks of seafoam treatment cleared up the problem. I think once a year would be reasonable.
__________________
Beech Arriba, Abajo, Al Centro, Adentro
Mount Vernon Cannon Works
K1300S
S1000R
I need a Honda sport or better yet a Monkey
I change your tires, you buy them on the web, I do the work $40, trying to keep riders on the road.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 11-24-2018, 02:01 AM
Flying Kiwi's Avatar
Flying Kiwi Flying Kiwi is offline
Site Contributor
Post: 1,298 Thanks: 65
Thanked 227 Times in 179 Posts
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Homeless on the East Coast, Australia
Re: K1200gt starting problem

Jean, this is sounding exactly like the starting problem I had which I discussed with you recently - struggling to idle at startup and often stalling but ok on the second startup, and eventually idling nicely. Interestingly, I had a spare temp sensor and when this was connected and the sensor placed in very cold water, startups were perfect every time as the ECU enriched the fuel further to compensate for the interpreted colder ambient temperature. This lead you to believe an air leak was the culprit. Like goolwa my problems occurred when the ambient temperature in the garage was 10șC. I removed and cleaned the TB manifolds, but more importantly reseated the TB stubs by polishing them with emory paper on glass to get them perfectly flat and this I believe made the difference. The problem with the stubs is that in time, the brass collars sit proud of the plastic stub preventing it from sealing correctly on the head. Pierre has alluded to this a number of times and I think goolwa probably needs to check all areas known to fail, allowing excess air into the fuel mixture.
__________________
Current rides:
2002 K1200RS. Owned from new. Pacific Blue, Ohlins, Speiglers, Fiamms, HID, Factory GT heated seat. 181,000km
1991 K1. Schwartz metallic black, fully restored. 74,000km SOLD
1987 K100RS Style. Black, Ohlins, Race Tech springs, Braided lines. Fully restored. 53,000 miles. SOLD
The family history:
1951 AJS 500 single - my Dads ride
1953 Triumph Terrier - my Mum's ride
1916 Triumph Type H, Battle of the Somme, France WW1 - my Granddads ride
Reply With Quote
This I-BMW member either likes, thanks -or- is 'shouting out' to 'Flying Kiwi' for this post:
  #10  
Old 11-24-2018, 11:08 AM
pbegin@burton's Avatar
pbegin@burton pbegin@burton is online now
A skeptic and a pragmatist.
Post: 4,468 Thanks: 65
Thanked 852 Times in 742 Posts
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Burton, BC Canada
Re: K1200gt starting problem

Ah....the vacuum leak at the intake manifolds.

Mine had been lapped.Only lasted a few 10s of thousands of kms.Found a very good flat and cheap set on fleabay and that fixed it.

Funny the warped ones,I put them in the shop oven at 300F.Less than 10 minutes and they came out straight as checked on the large flat porthole glass I use for lapping.But as they cooled I watched them warp again Repeated the bake....same results.

Someone alluded that brand new stubs he had bought weren't flat?That was a few years ago and not much details given then.But got me thinking that just maybe BMW specs them like that?And then they straighten up as the engine warms up?

Fixed 100,000 kms ago.No problems with that,I keep my bike suitably dirty during the riding season and haven't noticed any oily telltales around the TBs that would surely indicate a vacuum leak.

Still....might be time for me to remove the TBs for an inspection?Altough the red rubber grease I applied to the rubber manifolds has done an excellent job at keeping my OEMs supple and crack free all the way to 266Ks may be time to replenish that grease.
__________________
Benelli 50cc at 14
Yamaha RD200 at 16
Yamaha RD350 at 17
Honda CB750F at 18
Honda V45 Sabre at 24
85 BMW K100RS at 28 (Very nice and sorely missed)
90 BMW R100GS at 34 (Too slow, too cranky)
2003 K1200 RS at 53 (Oh Yeah......over 6000RPM)
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 11-24-2018, 12:17 PM
Beech's Avatar
Beech Beech is online now
I-BMW Rider of the Year 2016
Post: 6,875 Thanks: 1,772
Thanked 1,677 Times in 1,280 Posts
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: mount vernon, WA usa
Re: K1200gt starting problem

Red Rubber grease! The secret to success.
__________________
Beech Arriba, Abajo, Al Centro, Adentro
Mount Vernon Cannon Works
K1300S
S1000R
I need a Honda sport or better yet a Monkey
I change your tires, you buy them on the web, I do the work $40, trying to keep riders on the road.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools..
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Forum Jump

Similar Threads (a database pull of similar subject matter)
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
K1200GT shifting problem Must58GT "K12GT" Technical Q&A 19 09-11-2015 01:08 AM
last problem... delayed starting grandkodiak BMW R-Series 3 09-29-2008 09:14 PM
K1200GT fueling problem? fastlarry "KRS/GT" Technical Q&A 10 02-10-2008 06:15 PM
how many of you can get a loaner bike for a repeated K1200GT problem? ClearwaterBMW "K12GT" Gen. Discussions 39 06-01-2007 04:58 PM
98 K12RS problem, not starting, any ideas? Koko "KRS/GT" Technical Q&A 9 09-29-2006 12:30 AM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 01:31 PM.


I-BMW.com is via vBulletin Version 3.5.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 1998 - 2018, I-BMW.com LLC .
Page generated in 0.97579 seconds with 15 queries