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  #1  
Old 08-16-2013, 10:20 AM
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Question Synthetic VS Mineral 1st 6k-not again

I know everyone said not again after reading that header. But this will be an easy one without need for long debate.

I did first oil change with Motul 3000 at 500KM. I went against the manual on this one because my last K1300R was a hell of an oil burner and I wanted to make sure that everything was seated properly. Plan was again at 3000KM with Motul 3000( total mineral based) And then at 6000km switch to Mobile 1 Racing (full synthetic)

Now that I'm having this cluch issue and currently burning no oil to speak of at 2000Km, I'm itching to go full synthetic now.

To go or not to go is the question?

Thanks for any help given in advance. Great group here!

Cheers,

Frank
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  #2  
Old 08-16-2013, 12:32 PM
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Re: Synthetic VS Mineral 1st 6k-not again

Not going with a synthetic for the breaking of the engine is a nonsense. The new engines are not what they were a few decades ago. (Many exotic and expensive cars go out of the manufacture with synthetics.)

Not sure what happened to your R but it may not be totally an ol issue.

What's good: you did change ol at 500km. Even if not required by BMW, this is a good practice as long as I'm concerned,( just in case there was a screwdriver left in the ol circuit )

Stick to Jaso Ma ol to avoid clutch issues(assuming yours is a slant 4) and ride on

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  #3  
Old 08-16-2013, 02:43 PM
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Re: Synthetic VS Mineral 1st 6k-not again

Your rings are fully seated by now, so zero worries. The only difference using fully synthetic oil since mile 1 is a slightly longer seating time, but it's completely inconsequential. That's why many vehicles come pre-filled with fully synthetic oil from the factory. The best way to avoid oil consumption is doing a lot of coasting from the highest allowed rpm during break-in; that really helps to seat the rings, synthetic oil or not. I've never deviated from factory recommendations, and most of my vehicles have never consumed any oil. But sometimes you get those tolerances stacked at the wrong places, and no matter how you break your engine in, you get some oil consumption. That's why most manufacturers say it's normal, but their ridiculous amount of 1 qt every 1K miles is absolutely ridiculous. Thankfully, most folks with oil consumption issues experience a lot less than that. Good luck.
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Old 08-16-2013, 04:18 PM
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Re: Synthetic VS Mineral 1st 6k-not again

My bike has been running the BMW/Castrol 5w40 synthetic since the 600-mile service. As elp_jc noted, I also did a lot of closed-throttle engine braking during the first 600-miles to help seat the rings. I have done this on all of my new bikes over the years. My bike is consuming essentially no oil (maybe a 1/4 quart in 6,000 miles). I just had the second oil change, and today in my garage (now that I have a rear stand) filled the dry sump tank up to exactly the Max line (by both the sight hose and the gauge rod in the fill cap). Once I ride it a few times and confirm that I have it filled it exactly to the Max line I will closely monitor it to determine the oil consumption until the next oil change.

As for the clutch rattle, although my clutch had this at first, even before the 600-mile service and the change to the 5w40 synthetic, by 6,000 miles it had gone away and now I have no rattle symptoms when downshifting.
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Old 08-16-2013, 07:15 PM
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Re: Synthetic VS Mineral 1st 6k-not again

Quote:
Originally Posted by BeemerMikeTX
Once I ride it a few times and confirm that I have it filled it exactly to the Max line I will closely monitor it to determine the oil consumption until the next oil change.
Unfortunately, with a dry sump, and without an oil temperature gauge, it's close to impossible to accurately do that. Reason is the higher the oil temperature, the higher the oil level in dry-sumped vehicles. I have the same problem with my cars. Unless I do an oil change in the middle of summer, and ride/drive the vehicle enough that I know engine can't get much hotter than that, then I top off to the top mark. Otherwise, I leave it in the middle of the min-max range. For instance, during city driving, I never see oil temperatures higher than 210 on my cars. But when terrorizing the mountains (), I see 230s due to higher rpm and lower speeds. Therefore I leave them at the middle. With over 10 qts of oil, that is absolutely of no concern at all. On the bike I rather have it at the top mark. The first time I went a bit overboard by pouring 4 full qts, and had to extract about 0.2-qt, but that's also not an issue on the street. You don't want it overfilled when fully leaned over, and/or braking aggressively, since it could end up in the airbox. But you can tell more or less if you're consuming oil if you check it right after arriving home (same spot, on center stand, etc), which will be in about the same conditions, as long as you rode the bike for at least 15 miles, especially in cooler weather. That's the only reason why I like wet-sump engines with a dipstick better: you can precisely monitor oil consumption since you check the oil cold. Take care.
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Old 08-16-2013, 07:38 PM
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Re: Synthetic VS Mineral 1st 6k-not again

I find that I get very consistent predictable oil reading and have been able to accurately determine oil consumption on my K1300s. The difference between 20-100deg C in oil volume is approx 5%. If you always measure your oil hot it the difference in volume between a few degrees is not going to amount to much. In fact I find that the oil draining down off of the sides of the tank into the tank makes more of a difference than whether the oil is very hot or very very hot..

Use the below technique exactly the same way every time and you will get very reliable, accurate and predictible results every time.

1. Always measure when fully hot, this means riding it for a half hour minimum.
2. Idle the engine for a full minute, in neutral with the bike vertical, either with you sitting on it or on the center stand.This will scavenge all of the excess oil out of the crank case and pump it back into the reservoir. (this is the most important step)
3. Shut off the engine and leave the bike vertical on the center stand for 10 minutes. This will allow the oil to drain off the side walls of the oil tank and into the reservoir (this does make a small but visible difference in level)
4. Get right down on your knees with your eye level with the middle oil indicator mark every time you read the oil level. This makes a BIG difference because the parallax angle (the level marks are on the oil tank behind the the sight tube.)
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Old 08-16-2013, 08:22 PM
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Re: Synthetic VS Mineral 1st 6k-not again

Quote:
Originally Posted by elp_jc
Unfortunately, with a dry sump, and without an oil temperature gauge, it's close to impossible to accurately do that. Reason is the higher the oil temperature, the higher the oil level in dry-sumped vehicles.

I'm sorry, but it's not "close to impossible" to accurately monitor the oil level (and consumption) in a dry-sump engine without an oil temperature gauge. The key is to properly check the oil level in a consistent manner under "normal" operating conditions. I have been driving a dry-sump car (1972 Porsche 911) for the past 27 years. Both Porsche and BMW have essentially the same instructions for checking the oil level. Warm the engine up to normal operating temperature, let the engine idle for a minute (to stabilize the oil circulation in the system), then check the oil level. Porsche instructs you to check the oil level while the engine is idling, while BMW instructs you to stop the engine before you check the oil level. Since the scavenge pump and the pressure pump immediately stop when you stop the engine, there probably is no appreciable difference in the oil level between idling and not idling (and it certainly is less messy on the 911 with the engine not running). Although oil temperature rise trails coolant temperature rise as a cold engine warms up, riding the K1300S for 15 minutes after the coolant temperature gauge indicates normal operating temperature almost certainly allows the oil temperature to reach normal operating temperature. Of course the 911 actually has an oil temperature gauge (mine has temperature numbers on it), but that does not mean you cannot ensure that you have your K1300S engine oil at normal operating temperature when you check it. And, since the normal operating temperature of the engine oil is much higher than the ambient temperature, the ambient temperature is not going to have much effect on the oil level (at least at any reasonable ambient temperature that people are going to be checking their oil). What is "normal" operating temperature? Don't ride your K1300S at 130 mph for 30 minutes and then immediately jump off and try to check the oil level. Ride it at 50-60 mph (maybe a little more, maybe a little less) until the engine temperature stabilizes, and then check the oil level according to BMW's instructions.

Now, you may get some variation from one oil level check to the next, but over the course of several thousand miles you will get an good indication of the oil consumption in your engine.
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  #8  
Old 08-16-2013, 09:24 PM
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Re: Synthetic VS Mineral 1st 6k-not again

Run 50-wt in the winter and 60-wt in the summer. No WAIT! That's for the Panhead! No WAIT! Hell, now I even run H-D multi-vis in that thing!!

I tried to buy dino oil at the BMW store for my new K1300S and they told me that it came with full-on synth from the factory in the Fatherland. OK. I changed the filter at about 50 miles (soon as I got her home). Took her in for the 600 mile service. Now it's 5w-40 full-on synth Castrol sled juice from now to perpetuity. Every 6K or new set of tires, whichever comes first, she'll get an oil and filter change.

She'll get new oil before we go to SGR.

Seeya
ATB
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Old 08-17-2013, 01:28 AM
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Re: Synthetic VS Mineral 1st 6k-not again

To summarize:

- The claim that you should avoid synth oil at breaking is utter rubbish with no statistical data or scientific basis. BMW makes no claim that you should avoid using synthetic oil, and rumor has it that BMW knows rather a lot about the engines they designed! In fact, quite a lot more than the local mechanic and others who make this nonsensical claim.

- Synthetic oil, per se, has NOTHING to do with clutch slippage. What causes it is using a "car oil" that contains friction modifiers (most do), which is therefore not JASO-MA compliant for wet clutch usage. It is these friction modifier additives that cause clutch slippage.

- In the US and Canada, the entire claim that "synthetics" are better, is laughable, because in these countries, nearly ALL so-called "synthetic" and "full synthetic" oils sold here, are in fact made from Group III (highly refined mineral oil) base stock! This is as a result of a court case where Mobil sued Castrol (rightly) claiming that Castrol Syntec was actually not synthetic at all. Mobil lost..... the judge stated that the description "synthetic" had come to mean a high level of performance, not what the oil was made from! As a result, within a couple of years, most manufacturers of true synthetic oils switched over to using Group III mineral oil as feedstock. It may be misrepresentation, but it's legal!
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  #10  
Old 08-17-2013, 02:53 PM
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Re: Synthetic VS Mineral 1st 6k-not again

Quote:
Originally Posted by BeemerMikeTX
after the coolant temperature gauge indicates normal operating temperature almost certainly allows the oil temperature to reach normal operating temperature.
THAT right there is the biggest misconception people have. If you had an oil temperature gauge, you'd notice that when coolant temperature reaches its operating temperature of around 190F, oil temperature is still under 100F. That is because the thermostat DOES NOT open until it reaches that temperature. And that's also why you should NEVER subject a vehicle to WOT until oil temperature is above 150F, which takes several miles more after coolant temperature reaches 190. Similarly, when you're hammering on the engine, oil temperature can be 230F+, but coolant temperature still 190. Oil coolers make this variances even more wildly, especially if you have an 'air-to-oil' cooler (rather than a 'coolant-to-oil' cooler), like the K1300S, since in winter, oil might never even reach 150F on the freeway (like on C6 dry-sump Corvettes) if ambient air temperature is in the 40s, for instance.

Finally, oil level on dry-sump engines depends on many factors other than oil volume increase. The K1300S varies vary little indeed, and also stays at the same level even after turning engine off. Cars are totally opposite, at least in my experience. On the Ferrari (mid-engine. Front ones are wet-sump), engine has to be idling. On the Corvette it does not, but it's critical to check it at pretty much the same time (I wait 10 minutes). The difference between oil at 190F and 225F on both is 1/4 of the min-max range. That's A LOT of variance. That's why I leave those at 1/2, since oil sometimes gets over that when in the twisties, even when it's cool. On the K1300S, since it varies so little, I leave it at full, so I never have to carry any oil on a trip. Plus it carries less than 4 qts, not 10+.
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Old 08-17-2013, 04:08 PM
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Re: Synthetic VS Mineral 1st 6k-not again

Quote:
Originally Posted by RFW
the judge stated that the description "synthetic" had come to mean a high level of performance, not what the oil was made from! As a result, within a couple of years, most manufacturers of true synthetic oils switched over to using Group III mineral oil as feedstock. It may be misrepresentation, but it's legal!
Close, but the real defining factor was that in fact any type of refining is a form of synthesis and the fact that a Co. can not re-define a word to only meet their interest.
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Old 08-18-2013, 04:53 AM
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Re: Synthetic VS Mineral 1st 6k-not again

I just wanted to thank all you guys for your informative replies. This is the best biker forum that I've ever been part of.


It is true that motorcyclist do care for one another a great deal more that cage owners for sure

Thank you!

Btw I am an American living in Oz just don't tell any of the other Australians. They seem to think that we think we're special. OK, there is some truth in that.📯📯
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Old 08-18-2013, 12:59 PM
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Re: Synthetic VS Mineral 1st 6k-not again

Quote:
Originally Posted by frank_OZ
I know everyone said not again after reading that header. But this will be an easy one without need for long debate.

I did first oil change with Motul 3000 at 500KM. I went against the manual on this one because my last K1300R was a hell of an oil burner and I wanted to make sure that everything was seated properly. Plan was again at 3000KM with Motul 3000( total mineral based) And then at 6000km switch to Mobile 1 Racing (full synthetic)

Now that I'm having this cluch issue and currently burning no oil to speak of at 2000Km, I'm itching to go full synthetic now.

To go or not to go is the question?

Thanks for any help given in advance. Great group here!

Cheers,

Frank



if you suffer from ' lazy hand ' while operating your clutch

from a standstill slipping the clutch & possibly glaze the friction plates

using mineral / synth

the only reason i suspect one might experience clutch slippage

save for a few bikes that have dry clutches

racers have used ' synths ' with more HP under worse conditions

at higher speeds drag / road racing yet benefit from less friction

& consistency thruout an elevated heat range

as far as break in goes there are far too many myths

with nikasil cylinders vs iron liners to naked bores

few takes these differences into consideration

almost every aspect has changed & has been advanced technically

oil is no exception

few would argue what we pour into engines that are more advanced

far tighter tolerances ...........higher rpm

greater HP output isnt better than the sludge available decades ago
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Old 08-18-2013, 03:58 PM
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Re: Synthetic VS Mineral 1st 6k-not again

Quote:
Originally Posted by frank_OZ
I just wanted to thank all you guys for your informative replies. This is the best biker forum that I've ever been part of.


It is true that motorcyclist do care for one another a great deal more that cage owners for sure

Thank you!

Btw I am an American living in Oz just don't tell any of the other Australians. They seem to think that we think we're special. OK, there is some truth in that.����

We let a few of you in cause it makes the rest of us look real good
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Old 08-19-2013, 10:48 AM
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Re: Synthetic VS Mineral 1st 6k-not again

Quote:
Originally Posted by elp_jc
THAT right there is the biggest misconception people have. If you had an oil temperature gauge, you'd notice that when coolant temperature reaches its operating temperature of around 190F, oil temperature is still under 100F. That is because the thermostat DOES NOT open until it reaches that temperature. And that's also why you should NEVER subject a vehicle to WOT until oil temperature is above 150F, which takes several miles more after coolant temperature reaches 190. Similarly, when you're hammering on the engine, oil temperature can be 230F+, but coolant temperature still 190. Oil coolers make this variances even more wildly, especially if you have an 'air-to-oil' cooler (rather than a 'coolant-to-oil' cooler), like the K1300S, since in winter, oil might never even reach 150F on the freeway (like on C6 dry-sump Corvettes) if ambient air temperature is in the 40s, for instance.

Which is essentially what I said, when I said the oil temperature rise trails the coolant temperature rise when you start a cold engine, i.e., the oil temperature does not reach normal operating temperature until after the coolant reaches operating temperature, so you have to ride the bike for additional time (say 15 minutes) to get the oil temperature up to normal operating temperature. Fortunately, on a K1300S it is easy to check to see if the oil has gotten hot enough to open the oil thermostat. Just (briefly) touch the oil cooler, which is located directly below the headlight. If the oil cooler is hot to the touch, then the oil is at normal operating temperature. You don't need to know if the oil is at 180F, 200F, or 230F . . . all you need to know is that the oil is circulating through the complete oiling system before you check the oil level in the dry-sump tank.

Quote:
Originally Posted by elp_jc
Finally, oil level on dry-sump engines depends on many factors other than oil volume increase. The K1300S varies vary little indeed, and also stays at the same level even after turning engine off. Cars are totally opposite, at least in my experience. On the Ferrari (mid-engine. Front ones are wet-sump), engine has to be idling. On the Corvette it does not, but it's critical to check it at pretty much the same time (I wait 10 minutes). The difference between oil at 190F and 225F on both is 1/4 of min-max range. That's A LOT of variance. That's why I leave those at 1/2, since oil sometimes gets over that when in the twisties, even when it's cool. On the K1300S, since it varies so little, I leave it at full, so I never have to carry any oil on a trip. Plus it carries less than 4 qts, not 10+.

Why would a motorcycle dry-sump system be totally opposite from a car dry-sump system, assuming both use pumps mechanically driven by the engine?

I checked this temperature-volume assertion yesterday, and the oil volume varies insignificantly with temperature. I rode my K1300S about 110 miles in 80F weather yesterday morning (so I know the engine was fully warmed up), put the bike up on the rear paddock stand, checked that the oil cooler was hot (it was!), let the bike idle for more than a minute (as BMW instructs) and the display indicates "Oil OK". I checked the oil level via the clear hose with the engine running . . . right at the Max line. I turned the engine off and checked the oil level again after a few minutes (just to let any oil drain from the tank walls) . . . right at the Max line. I let the bike sit in the garage overnight so I know the engine/coolant/oil have cooled down to ambient temperature (77F) and checked the oil level . . . right at the Max line. Oil hot, oil cold, engine running, engine not running . . . the oil level did not vary by even 1mm. If anyone has any doubts about this, run the same test on your own K1300S and see what happens.

If you want to believe, and you want other people to believe, that if you do not have an oil temperature gauge on your bike/car with a dry sump so that you can ensure you are checking your oil level at the same temperature every time you cannot get an accurate reading of the oil level . . . that is just not correct.

What one has to do is get the oil hot enough so that the thermostat to the oil cooler opens and you have the oil circulating in a steady-state condition throughout the entire oiling system (as it would be while you are riding/driving in normal use). This is easy to check on a K1300S by just touching the oil cooler under the headlight.
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Old 08-19-2013, 11:28 AM
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Re: Synthetic VS Mineral 1st 6k-not again

Quote:
Originally Posted by BeemerMikeTX
I rode my K1300S about 110 miles in 80F weather yesterday morning (so I know the engine was fully warmed up), put the bike up on the rear paddock stand, checked that the oil cooler was hot (it was!), let the bike idle for more than a minute (as BMW instructs) and the display indicates "Oil OK". I checked the oil level via the clear hose with the engine running . . . right at the Max line. I turned the engine off and checked the oil level again after a few minutes (just to let any oil drain from the tank walls) . . . right at the Max line. I let the bike sit in the garage overnight so I know the engine/coolant/oil have cooled down to ambient temperature (77F) and checked the oil level . . . right at the Max line.

...............that is exactly my experience. Possibly you would see a visible difference if the ambient temperature was down around freezing?

I find if you follow the proper steps it is a very simple system to use.

I changed my oil yesterday, I have it down to an art now. After siphoning ALL of the oil out of the tank, changing the oil filter AND draining the crank case the bike takes exactly 4.4 quarts to pit it on the max line every time.

After draining everything I pour 4 quarts into the tank (puts it up above the max line), start the engine and idle for about 30 seconds, then I add the last 0.4 quarts.

then after warming it up properly and checking it according to the proper procedure it is right on the max line
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Old 08-19-2013, 11:46 AM
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Re: Synthetic VS Mineral 1st 6k-not again

Quote:
Originally Posted by K13Mike
...............that is exactly my experience. Possibly you would see a visible difference if the ambient temperature was down around freezing?

Possibly, but I suspect the volume change between 190F and 77F is not much different than the volume change between 190F and 32F . . . i.e., not much at all.
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Old 08-19-2013, 11:56 AM
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Re: Synthetic VS Mineral 1st 6k-not again

Quote:
Originally Posted by K13Mike
I changed my oil yesterday, I have it down to an art now. After siphoning ALL of the oil out of the tank, changing the oil filter AND draining the crank case the bike takes exactly 4.4 quarts to pit it on the max line every time.

After draining everything I pour 4 quarts into the tank (puts it up above the max line), start the engine and idle for about 30 seconds, then I add the last 0.4 quarts.

then after warming it up properly and checking it according to the proper procedure it is right on the max line

I have not changed the oil myself yet (I just got a rear stand last week), and have let the dealer perform the first two oil changes (including the 600-mile service). Once I got the rear stand and checked the oil level carefully, I found I needed to add about 0.2 quarts to bring the oil level right up the Max line. I don't know exactly how much oil the dealer put in at the oil change, so I don't know if slightly below the Max line is where 4 quarts gets you or if the dealer intentionally fills it to slightly below the Max line. I'll do my next oil change (in between the scheduled services), so I'll determine how much oil you need to put in with a filter change to get the oil right to the Max line.
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  #19  
Old 08-19-2013, 12:46 PM
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Re: Synthetic VS Mineral 1st 6k-not again

Quote:
Originally Posted by K13Mike
................After draining everything I pour 4 quarts into the tank (puts it up above the max line), start the engine and idle for about 30 seconds, then I add the last 0.4 quarts....
There must be a different oil tank on your bike. The 2007, 2008, and 2011 K1200/13300S oil tank will only hold about 2 1/2 quarts. I did put in three the first time. Quite a mess.


Pour 2 quarts into oil tank, crank bike, pour in two more as the oil sloooowly gets drawn into the sump. Ride it, and forget about whether the oil level is min or max.
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Old 08-19-2013, 01:58 PM
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Re: Synthetic VS Mineral 1st 6k-not again

Quote:
Originally Posted by cabnfvr
There must be a different oil tank on your bike. The 2007, 2008, and 2011 K1200/13300S oil tank will only hold about 2 1/2 quarts. I did put in three the first time. Quite a mess.


Pour 2 quarts into oil tank, crank bike, pour in two more as the oil sloooowly gets drawn into the sump. Ride it, and forget about whether the oil level is min or max.

.............I believe you are correct sir, in my case with the new 4 liter tank (embossed right on top of the tank) your technique would have me pretty much spot on the "min" level.
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Old 08-19-2013, 06:02 PM
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Re: Synthetic VS Mineral 1st 6k-not again

Quote:
Originally Posted by BeemerMikeTX
Which is essentially what I said, when I said the oil temperature rise trails the coolant temperature rise when you start a cold engine, i.e., the oil temperature does not reach normal operating temperature until after the coolant reaches operating temperature, so you have to ride the bike for additional time (say 15 minutes) to get the oil temperature up to normal operating temperature. Fortunately, on a K1300S it is easy to check to see if the oil has gotten hot enough to open the oil thermostat. Just (briefly) touch the oil cooler, which is located directly below the headlight. If the oil cooler is hot to the touch, then the oil is at normal operating temperature. You don't need to know if the oil is at 180F, 200F, or 230F . . . all you need to know is that the oil is circulating through the complete oiling system before you check the oil level in the dry-sump tank.



Why would a motorcycle dry-sump system be totally opposite from a car dry-sump system, assuming both use pumps mechanically driven by the engine?

I checked this temperature-volume assertion yesterday, and the oil volume varies insignificantly with temperature. I rode my K1300S about 110 miles in 80F weather yesterday morning (so I know the engine was fully warmed up), put the bike up on the rear paddock stand, checked that the oil cooler was hot (it was!), let the bike idle for more than a minute (as BMW instructs) and the display indicates "Oil OK". I checked the oil level via the clear hose with the engine running . . . right at the Max line. I turned the engine off and checked the oil level again after a few minutes (just to let any oil drain from the tank walls) . . . right at the Max line. I let the bike sit in the garage overnight so I know the engine/coolant/oil have cooled down to ambient temperature (77F) and checked the oil level . . . right at the Max line. Oil hot, oil cold, engine running, engine not running . . . the oil level did not vary by even 1mm. If anyone has any doubts about this, run the same test on your own K1300S and see what happens.

If you want to believe, and you want other people to believe, that if you do not have an oil temperature gauge on your bike/car with a dry sump so that you can ensure you are checking your oil level at the same temperature every time you cannot get an accurate reading of the oil level . . . that is just not correct.

What one has to do is get the oil hot enough so that the thermostat to the oil cooler opens and you have the oil circulating in a steady-state condition throughout the entire oiling system (as it would be while you are riding/driving in normal use). This is easy to check on a K1300S by just touching the oil cooler under the headlight.




some of what you say is true......................... yet it DOES NOT MATTER

making sure hot ....cold oil is at the proper levels does not matter

in the minutiae of Starbux conversation it does

to the engine it Does NOT ! ! !

most modern engines have been designed around ' windage '
[oil collected around the crank..........oil suspended in the air around the crank ]

especially hi revving engines
by example one of the worst was the small block chevy which could
fill both valve covers & suspend the rest of the oil in the sump 7 qts total

its rarely a problem as the engineers took care of that square 1 !


what matters to the engine is the volume of oil under pressure
[ picked up by the pump to supply crank .... valves ... pistons ]

used by the bearing surfaces under Load !!

it aint the full 3.8 quarts or whatever the owners manual refers to

its usually only about 30-40% used in the engine for proper lubrication

the rest in the sump to cool & be reconstituted

true running at the minimun affects that oil in the sump more

than whats actually being used in the engine [ crank the major concern ]

it WILL be warmer

It will NOT have reconstituted as well

there is simply less oil .............................. the more LOAD

the greater the chances of damage being done to vital components
usually the crank

in modern engines oil is restricted to the valves / pistons

so making sure to allow for heat expansion over ambient

is a futile quest..............
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  #22  
Old 08-20-2013, 08:56 AM
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Re: Synthetic VS Mineral 1st 6k-not again

Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Tail
some of what you say is true......................... yet it DOES NOT MATTER

making sure hot ....cold oil is at the proper levels does not matter

in the minutiae of Starbux conversation it does

to the engine it Does NOT ! ! !

* * *


That's all very interesting . . . except that my posts are not really talking about how oil lubricates the engine, or how much oil volume should an engine be designed to contain, or even how much oil should you run in your K1300S (Max line, Min line, middle line). My posts are talking about how to correctly check the oil level in the dry sump tank so that you know how much oil is in the system (relative, not absolute) and can monitor the oil consumption in your engine over time.
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  #23  
Old 08-20-2013, 11:51 AM
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Re: Synthetic VS Mineral 1st 6k-not again

And still no sign of Molly
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  #24  
Old 08-20-2013, 12:06 PM
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Re: Synthetic VS Mineral 1st 6k-not again

The K1300S owner's manual says this on pages 98 and 99 (very slightly paraphrased):
  • Make sure the engine is at operating tempreature and hold the motorcycle upright - with the center stand.
  • Check that the engine is at operating temperature, make sure the ground is level and firm and place the motorcycle on its center stand.
  • Allow the engine to idle for one minute.
  • Switch off the ignition
  • Check the oil level in the oil-level indicator (the sight tube)
  • Oil level should be between MAX and MIN marks.
  • If oil level is below the MIN mark, add oil.
  • If oil level is above the MAX mark, "have the oil level corrected by a specialist workshop, preferably an authorized BMW Motorrad dealer."
I add this to the above:
  • Once oil level is confirmed to be within MAX/MIN marks, drop the bike off the center stand and put it on the side stand.
  • Check oil level with bike on side stand. This is what you want to see just after gassing the bike at a quick fuel stop.
Also:
  • The apparent oil level can be affected by parking the bike on a surface that is not level, such as the sloping driveway in front of a motel room.
It's not that big a deal really. Certainly involves less voodoo than trying to get an accurate reading of the oil level on an R11XX oil head.

Just my humble opinion.

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  #25  
Old 08-20-2013, 01:21 PM
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Re: Synthetic VS Mineral 1st 6k-not again

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paughco
I add this to the above:
  • Once oil level is confirmed to be within MAX/MIN marks, drop the bike off the center stand and put it on the side stand.
  • Check oil level with bike on side stand. This is what you want to see just after gassing the bike at a quick fuel stop.
That's a pretty good tip, especially for those of us who don't have a centerstand. Thanks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paughco
It's not that big a deal really. Certainly involves less voodoo than trying to get an accurate reading of the oil level on an R11XX oil head.

No kidding. If you don't use the "correct" procedure on an oilhead (which is not very well described in the manual), you can be quite off on your oil level reading.
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Old 08-20-2013, 04:49 PM
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Re: Synthetic VS Mineral 1st 6k-not again

Quote:
Originally Posted by BeemerMikeTX
Oil hot, oil cold, engine running, engine not running . . . the oil level did not vary by even 1mm. If anyone has any doubts about this, run the same test on your own K1300S and see what happens.
You just love to argue, don't you? That was EXACTLY what I said about the K13S, and that's why I do leave it at the 'max' mark. Geez. But that's not the case with modern dry-sump cars, whether you like it or not. I'm done trying to reason with you, when you don't even own the cars I do. Each vehicle is different, and you just have to learn how to deal with each one.

Ignored, so I won't see or respond to any of your posts anymore. Pissing contest over. Good luck with the rest of your life man.
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Old 08-20-2013, 05:00 PM
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Re: Synthetic VS Mineral 1st 6k-not again

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paughco
  • Check that the engine is at operating temperature, make sure the ground is level and firm and place the motorcycle on its center stand.
It's even simpler with a G1200GT, there is no plastic tube to look at but an old-fashioned dip stick, located right in the middle, hence you can have the bike on the side stand and it really makes no difference compared to the center stand.
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Old 08-20-2013, 07:55 PM
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Re: Synthetic VS Mineral 1st 6k-not again

Yeah - just like on my '50 Panhead!

Seeya
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  #29  
Old 08-21-2013, 07:56 AM
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Re: Synthetic VS Mineral 1st 6k-not again

Quote:
Originally Posted by OILHEAD
It's even simpler with a G1200GT, there is no plastic tube to look at but an old-fashioned dip stick, located right in the middle, hence you can have the bike on the side stand and it really makes no difference compared to the center stand.

My K1300S also has a dipstick, attached to the filler cap, which is pretty much on the centerline of the tank. I compared the dipstick to the plastic tube. The reading on the plastic tube went from the Max line to halfway between the 1/2 line and the Min line when the bike went from vertical (rear stand) to the sidestand. The reading on the dipstick did not change, and stayed right at the Max line. Therefore, if you check the oil level while on the sidestand (if no centerstand on your bike, like mine) it appears you can get a valid "quick" oil level reading while traveling by looking at the plastic tube and making the 3/4 adjustment, or removing the seat to look at the dipstick if you want a direct, accurate reading of oil level.
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Old 08-21-2013, 08:22 AM
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Re: Synthetic VS Mineral 1st 6k-not again

Quote:
Originally Posted by elp_jc
You just love to argue, don't you? That was EXACTLY what I said about the K13S, and that's why I do leave it at the 'max' mark. Geez. But that's not the case with modern dry-sump cars, whether you like it or not. I'm done trying to reason with you, when you don't even own the cars I do. Each vehicle is different, and you just have to learn how to deal with each one.

Ignored, so I won't see or respond to any of your posts anymore. Pissing contest over. Good luck with the rest of your life man.

If you cannot participate in a technical discussion forum without taking offense if someone politely questions your "expertise", then it may be best for you to ignore people who might question your expertise so that you won't be offended. If I say something incorrect on this forum, I expect people to correct me so we don't have misinformation floating around. I won't be offended.

In your response (#5) to my first post (#4), you stated that you cannot accurately measure the level/volume of oil in a dry sump tank (and oil consumption over time) if you don't have an oil temperature gauge, apparently because of the volume expansion of oil with increased temperature. That is just not correct. I checked it against my K1300S to make sure there was no difference in the oil level reading between hot oil and cold oil. There was no difference.

I'm not talking about checking the oil level in the cars you own (I don't know what they are or how their oiling systems are designed and operate). I'm talking about checking the oil level the K1300S that I do own, and monitoring the oil consumption over time. You don't need an oil temperature gauge, and you don't need to allow for volume expansion of the the oil with temperature. If that has offended you, then I am sorry.
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