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"KRS/GT" Tires Different tire-brands and suggestions

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View Poll Results: What will be the result of running a tire "backwards" (ie against the arrow)?
Definately needs correction before usage 54 35.53%
It will not make any difference on wet or dry 3 1.97%
It will only effect handling in wet conditions 28 18.42%
I don't know, I was never stupid enough to end up in this situation 67 44.08%
Voters: 152. You may not vote until 'registered'. Please go here: http://www.i-bmw.com/register.php

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  #1  
Old 08-30-2006, 12:32 AM
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MattB MattB is offline
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Question Odd Questions - Tire Mounting

Okay, here's the situation. I have two sets of wheels and change my own tires at my uncles house which is (230 miles away). Last weekend I was headed that way in the cage, so I had SW Moto send me some new Conti Road Attacks to his house. I took up my extra front and rear wheel to mount the new rubbers.

Where I went wrong.

I quickly removed both old tires from the wheels. I then mounted the rear and moved on to the installation of the front tire.... F*ck... which side of the wheel is the left side? I played it over in my head again and again trying to remember. Finally convinced that I had identified the left side of the wheel I checked the tire arrow for the proper rotational direction and mounted it. Why I didn't pick up the telephone and attempt to call a friend that has a KRS I do not know

Needless to say, upon getting home I looked at the bike and found out that I guessed / "remembered" wrong. What does this mean? It means that I need to have the tire removed, flipped, re-mounted, and re-balanced OR I do the unthinkable and run it backwards.

Has anybody tried running a tire mounted in reverse of the directional arrow? It seems to me that on dry pavement it would work nearly identical, but on wet pavement / a rain the tire would have issues wicking away the water.

What do you all think?

A. Definately needs correction
B. Will not make any difference
C. Only differences will be in wet weather
D. Beats the hell out of me I never tried it

Being of the curious nature, I'll likely mount the wheel on the bike and try to do my own evaluation locally. The idea was to use this new rubber at DGR, so I need to check / rectify the situation in the coming weeks.

Matt
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  #2  
Old 08-30-2006, 12:41 AM
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Re: Odd Questions - Tire Mounting

By the way, I forgot to mention an interesting find while looking for opinions on the internet about my situation.

I looked up "motorcycle tire rotation direction" on Google...

Interesting reading... I learned:

Metzler recommends:

20. Arrow = The arrow indicates the rotation direction of the tire accordingly to its fitting position (front or rear). In case a rear tire is fitted on a front wheel, the tire has to be fitted reverse to the rotating direction indicated on the sidewall. Fitment of front tires on rear wheel is not permitted.

Have any of you ever run a rear tire on the front?

Matt
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  #3  
Old 08-30-2006, 12:55 AM
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Re: Odd Questions - Tire Mounting

I have a tire changer and I'm only 50 miles away from you. So come up here, fix the mounting mistake and quit worrying about it.

I promise not to make fun of you for F-up.
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  #4  
Old 08-30-2006, 01:02 AM
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Re: Odd Questions - Tire Mounting

The only issue is probably with water, but it's a BIG ISSUE. The least amount of water (even a puddle) would cause you to hydroplane, and possibly crash, as the water will be channeled to the contact patch, rather than away from it.
Not even worth trying around the neighborhood buddy. We want you alive!!!! .
Take George's offer and correct your screw up.
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  #5  
Old 08-30-2006, 04:43 AM
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Re: Odd Questions - Tire Mounting

Noooo, I believe it is the rotational direction the belts are layered and other mad doctor engineering crap that does make a difference.. But hey! i've been wrong before..

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  #6  
Old 08-30-2006, 11:21 AM
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Re: Odd Questions - Tire Mounting

easy fix, grind arrow off and use felt marker to make new one in the direction of your choise!
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  #7  
Old 08-30-2006, 11:33 AM
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Re: Odd Questions - Tire Mounting

At the Texas Hill Country Rally several years ago I had to buy a rear tire while in San Antonio. Got it at the BMW shop there, who stayed open late to accommodate me. But the guy mounted it backwards, and I didn't realize it until at least 2000 miles later, back in NC. At that point I turned it around, and got twice the mileage out of that tire.

Nope, not really. But I had ridden through lots of weather with no ill effects with the tire the wrong way. However, I don't think I would have fared as well if it had been the front tire, and the thought of having the front end wash out on me is not a happy one.

So yeah, let George flip that sucker around ASAP.
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  #8  
Old 08-30-2006, 03:20 PM
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Re: Odd Questions - Tire Mounting

Quote:
Originally Posted by George_in_KG
I have a tire changer and I'm only 50 miles away from you. So come up here, fix the mounting mistake and quit worrying about it.

I promise not to make fun of you for F-up.

Sir George,

I thank you for your offer and I'll be taking you up on it. As much as I'd like to know if it makes any difference, I'm not willing to possibly lay it down in the rain to find out.

I'll give you a call and see when the shop has openings

Matt
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  #9  
Old 08-30-2006, 03:29 PM
magellan magellan is offline
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Re: Odd Questions - Tire Mounting

This happered to me at a car dealer one time. within 1000 miles the tires came apart. The belts are layed in the tire to run a certain directioni. If you run it the wrong way the belts will seperate. This is no sh-t. you will eventually feel the ride becoming rough. And the tire will be use less.

I worked at a tire recapping place years ago, so this is not just a story.

The brain at the car dealer told me that it was ok and he turned the tires around and told me that is all he would do. Well I made almost home. 50 miles, now he had to pay for a roll off to get my truck back to the dealer and buy me new Michlins
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  #10  
Old 08-30-2006, 06:14 PM
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Re: Odd Questions - Tire Mounting

Quote:
Originally Posted by MattB
20. Arrow = The arrow indicates the rotation direction of the tire accordingly to its fitting position (front or rear). In case a rear tire is fitted on a front wheel, the tire has to be fitted reverse to the rotating direction indicated on the sidewall. Fitment of front tires on rear wheel is not permitted.

Have any of you ever run a rear tire on the front?

Strangely enough...

I run Metzler ME880's (their LT/cruiser touring tire) on my F650ST. Even though I actually have a factory-specified front on the front, and rear on the rear, they both have the exact same tread pattern (somewhat unusual for a M/C tire). The strange thing is, the tread on the front is, in fact, the same as the rear, but running in the opposite rotation.

At first I thought that the service manager at my dealer had installed the tire backwards, but I soon quashed that thought when I checked the rotational arrow. Sure enough, it was mounted correctly.

I still don't understand the theory behind having a reversed tire tread on the front vs. the rear, though. I would think that water sipes are water sipes, and you would want the front to spit the water away for the rear to get better traction/have less water to move.

Then again, I'm only about 25% German, so I'm not sure I'll ever FULLY understand Metzler...
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  #11  
Old 08-30-2006, 06:38 PM
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Re: Odd Questions - Tire Mounting

Very interesting .....
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  #12  
Old 08-30-2006, 06:48 PM
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Re: Odd Questions - Tire Mounting

tast tire I had mounted by a dealership was at Lone Star up in Austin (lived in College Station at the time 100 miles)
had them mount a front for me and on the ride home was just off the entire way couldnt get into a grove for my riding, every corner just didnt feel right.
Get home look back at the bike and immediately see the prob, fornt tire mounted backwards.
I know I should have looked at the dealership prior to leaving but was hurried as needed to cook dinner for guests arriving and was running late (this also frustratred me on the way home as I couldnt get into my high speed running grove or rythym). after that I started mounting my own with tire irons on a blanket on the floor of my garage and now more recently a nice Nomar unit!!
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  #13  
Old 08-30-2006, 07:41 PM
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Re: Odd Questions - Tire Mounting

Why reversed tread patterns? Easy. The front tire's main job is braking, or NEGATIVE acceleration. The rear tire's main job is ACCELERATION. As you can see, they have OPPOSITE jobs, hence the opposite tread pattern. And yes, the front tire's job is also to clear the path for the rear; that's why is so dangerous to reverse the rotation of the front tire, but the rear would be fine either way.
If we didn't have water to deal with, we all would be riding in slicks.
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  #14  
Old 08-30-2006, 07:51 PM
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Re: Odd Questions - Tire Mounting

Quote:
Originally Posted by elp_jc
...we all would be riding on slicks.
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  #15  
Old 09-01-2006, 09:41 AM
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Re: Odd Questions - Tire Mounting

Quote:
Originally Posted by elp_jc
If we didn't have water to deal with, we all would be riding in slicks.
a real possibility these days in my part of Texas
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  #16  
Old 09-01-2006, 11:32 AM
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Re: Odd Questions - Tire Mounting

Quote:
Originally Posted by Karlb
a real possibility these days in my part of Texas
It used to be that way here too buddy... until we got drenched with 14" of rain in 2 weeks (what we usually get in almost TWO YEARS ). We're back to normal weatherwise, but massive flood damage remains; at least we were declared a disaster zone. Who would have thought of flood insurance on this desert? Geez.
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  #17  
Old 09-09-2006, 09:51 PM
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Re: Odd Questions - Tire Mounting

Actually many slicks are directional also. The correct answer is the construction & the way the belts attach inside the tire. The previous posts described it about right. I will say that I have seen many tires run the wrong way with no obvious issues. Probably the best advice is to make it right though & not take the chance.
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  #18  
Old 09-09-2006, 11:54 PM
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Re: Odd Questions - Tire Mounting

Quote:
Originally Posted by elp_jc
It used to be that way here too buddy... until we got drenched with 14" of rain in 2 weeks (what we usually get in almost TWO YEARS ). We're back to normal weatherwise, but massive flood damage remains; at least we were declared a disaster zone. Who would have thought of flood insurance on this desert? Geez.
ya know I would just about take that kinda rain right about now
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  #19  
Old 02-04-2007, 06:11 PM
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Re: Odd Questions - Tire Mounting

Read post #5 here : http://www.i-bmw.com/showthread.php?...ed=1#post57415

Too funny

Quote:
Originally Posted by MattB
Okay, here's the situation. I have two sets of wheels and change my own tires at my uncles house which is (230 miles away). Last weekend I was headed that way in the cage, so I had SW Moto send me some new Conti Road Attacks to his house. I took up my extra front and rear wheel to mount the new rubbers.

Where I went wrong.

I quickly removed both old tires from the wheels. I then mounted the rear and moved on to the installation of the front tire.... F*ck... which side of the wheel is the left side? I played it over in my head again and again trying to remember. Finally convinced that I had identified the left side of the wheel I checked the tire arrow for the proper rotational direction and mounted it. Why I didn't pick up the telephone and attempt to call a friend that has a KRS I do not know

Needless to say, upon getting home I looked at the bike and found out that I guessed / "remembered" wrong. What does this mean? It means that I need to have the tire removed, flipped, re-mounted, and re-balanced OR I do the unthinkable and run it backwards.

Has anybody tried running a tire mounted in reverse of the directional arrow? It seems to me that on dry pavement it would work nearly identical, but on wet pavement / a rain the tire would have issues wicking away the water.

What do you all think?

A. Definately needs correction
B. Will not make any difference
C. Only differences will be in wet weather
D. Beats the hell out of me I never tried it

Being of the curious nature, I'll likely mount the wheel on the bike and try to do my own evaluation locally. The idea was to use this new rubber at DGR, so I need to check / rectify the situation in the coming weeks.

Matt
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  #20  
Old 02-04-2007, 06:37 PM
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Re: Odd Questions - Tire Mounting

usually b4 I take something apart I take pictures so I don't get ne more confused than normal
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  #21  
Old 02-04-2007, 11:36 PM
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Re: Odd Questions - Tire Mounting

Quote:
Originally Posted by MattB
too funny!!!!!!!!
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  #22  
Old 04-12-2007, 01:43 PM
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Re: Odd Questions - Tire Mounting

you wont be the first to have done so

or the first that didnt know
rode their bike......wore out the tire without incident

most would probably notice in a remount same tyre
yet reversing direction
the cupping makes the tyre noisy & seem unbalanced

many euro model bikes run the same
or near same size tyre
results in excellent handling actually

look at the size of some fronts by HD
honda etc.....they are as big as many rears

if it can be done
it has been done

if you really are all jinxed up about it
correct it b4 you ride it

good luck
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  #23  
Old 04-13-2007, 11:25 AM
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Re: Odd Questions - Tire Mounting

I've long ago trashed/thrashed that tire... but where did you get the idea that I was running the same size tire front and back???

For that matter, I don't think that a 170 would fit between the forks on the front... and even if it did I can't imagine why in the hell anyone would do it


Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Tail
you wont be the first to have done so

or the first that didnt know
rode their bike......wore out the tire without incident

most would probably notice in a remount same tyre
yet reversing direction
the cupping makes the tyre noisy & seem unbalanced

many euro model bikes run the same
or near same size tyre
results in excellent handling actually

look at the size of some fronts by HD
honda etc.....they are as big as many rears

if it can be done
it has been done

if you really are all jinxed up about it
correct it b4 you ride it

good luck
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  #24  
Old 04-13-2007, 01:06 PM
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Re: Odd Questions - Tire Mounting

Here are some things I discovered last year when I mounted a spare on my cage just before a vehicle test and it failed for the tire direction incorrect. Now it's obvious on a cage that if you have a rotation arrow on a spare, it can legally only be used on 2 wheels, whilst UK road rules say you must carry a serviceable spare (???)

After some digging about I discovered: My insurance could be invalidated if I drove on a tire the wrong way round. That tire companies have discovered they can make cheaper tires for cages by changing the amount/type of rubber on one side - provided the tire always rotates the same way as designed. Now it's possible that a tire could be made non symmetrical and cheaper by varying the composition or wall strength is the one that worried me, then there's the obvious one of the tread pattern not clearing water.

Even with ABS, a rotating tread pattern braking from say 100mph in the wet has got to work as best it can. I would get the tires put on with the direction arrows corrrect.

Anybody who wants to grind that arrow off or hide it, may be responsible for the death of the present owner or a fellow riding buddy.
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  #25  
Old 04-13-2007, 05:53 PM
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Re: Odd Questions - Tire Mounting

there are many models that use same tyres front & rear

that one may be toooo lazy to investigate the fact

seems i remeber that the hd police model for years used the same size
in my state the prefered 'authority " bike is still an HD
noted for its Superb handling

i never said id switch front yto rear on my k12rs
yet the diffe between some 120 & 130's up front
is NOT that great betwwen the 140 & 150's on the rear

one of the bikes that has a rep for beeing a superb handler
was the old Daytona 90s
rear tyre not bigger than the fronts we run today

no less many racing sliks have the direction arrow
has more to do with the actual spin when the tire is being
constructed
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  #26  
Old 04-15-2007, 09:38 PM
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Re: Odd Questions - Tire Mounting

Quote:
Originally Posted by MattB
... but where did you get the idea that I was running the same size tire front and back???

For that matter, I don't think that a 170 would fit between the forks on the front... and even if it did I can't imagine why in the hell anyone would do it


Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Tail
there are many models that use same tyres front & rear

that one may be toooo lazy to investigate the fact

seems i remeber that the hd police model for years used the same size
in my state the prefered 'authority " bike is still an HD
noted for its Superb handling

Should have figured... HD, the supreme authority for well handling bikes came up with the idea

If only I had enough money to buy an HD I could sell these other POS's and buy a bike with "superb handling"
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  #27  
Old 05-07-2007, 05:37 PM
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Re: Odd Questions - Tire Mounting

As I understand it, the directional arrow is put on the tire based upon how the cords are joined, and that the directional arrow reflects the best tire rotation direction under braking. In theory, with the tire rotating in the wrong direction, under braking the joint in the cords could separate causing no end of fun.

I've never heard of this happening and I imagine that it would take some very severe braking to make it an issue.

However, as I understand that is why the tires have rotational arrows.

Hope that helps.
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Old 05-08-2007, 02:24 PM
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Re: Odd Questions - Tire Mounting

That's what I think is the situation. You also need to look at the tread pattern which is not always symmetrical. It's designed to push water away from the tire in the correct direction to reduce aquaplaning.

Look at these 2 pics of my Battleaxe 020 front, shot straight on, with one photo rotated 180. I think you can crudely see that in the correct fitting trapped water would be moved away from the tread, but in the reversed example it's trapped by the tread. I trust my life to the tire designers and the fitting marks they put on the tire.

I've always marked my rim directions with a white arrow, because I know even tire shops get it wrong.
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  #29  
Old 07-06-2007, 11:40 PM
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Re: Odd Questions - Tire Mounting

Both RS wheel spokes sweep backwards. If you have ABS the ABS ring on the front tire is on the left as you sit on the bike. To me the spokes seem to sweep to the rear.

A tip on changing your own tires. Balance the wheel without a tire. Use a permanent marker to mark the heavy spot on the inside of the wheel, it's not always at the air valve. You can use this to line up the light spot marked on most tires. You could also mark the left and right side inside the wheel if that helps.

If you do not have ABS the wheel spokes sweep the same so orient the front wheel with the back wheel. The back only goes on one way since it is on a one-sided swing arm.
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Old 07-07-2007, 01:52 AM
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Re: Odd Questions - Tire Mounting

Quote:
Originally Posted by dpscott
.....

A tip on changing your own tires. Balance the wheel without a tire. Use a permanent marker to mark the heavy spot on the inside of the wheel, it's not always at the air valve. You can use this to line up the light spot marked on most tires. You could also mark the left and right side inside the wheel if that helps.

If you do not have ABS the wheel spokes sweep the same so orient the front wheel with the back wheel. The back only goes on one way since it is on a one-sided swing arm.


...And while you are marking the light spot on the wheel, add some arrows to indicate rotation direction. It helps minimize those late-night backward mounting problems. Don't ask how I learned this one.
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Old 07-09-2007, 12:07 AM
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Re: Odd Questions - Tire Mounting

Quote:
Originally Posted by dpscott
If you have ABS the ABS ring on the front tire is on the left as you sit on the bike.
This is a good suggestion and something that I did think about. Unfortunately for me in this circumstance, I have two sets of wheels, and the wheels in question did not have the rotors nor ABS ring mounted.
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Old 07-09-2007, 12:12 AM
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Re: Odd Questions - Tire Mounting

Quote:
Originally Posted by George_in_KG
Don't ask how I learned this one.
George, please tell me that you didn't do this too

As a side note (and this is funny... at least to me), I'm thinking that you could run the Conti's in either direction and be fine. The following excerpt is from : http://www.conti-tyres.co.uk/contibi...oad-attack.php


Quote:
The orientation of the ContiRoad Attack front has recently been revised. Conti Germany responded to feed-back from the UK and other markets about maximising the already incredible durability of the original front tread pattern. After the launch of the ContiSport Attack test riders commented on the fact that the reversed tread direction gave much more uniform wear across the tyres section and so the ContiRoad Attack front pattern was switched in late October 2006 to take advantage of this better wear characteristic. Some confusion exists because some European plants outside of Germany have a tread mould with small arrows at the edge of the tread near the sidewall, these arrows should be ignored. These moulds are being replaced. ContiRoad attack customers may be offered the same tyre with apparently two different directions of rotation. The tread pattern on both tyres is fine. Riders should be aware that all relevant and legally required information regarding speed rating and direction of rotation is moulded into the side-wall of the tyre, not the tread, so be sure your tyre is fitted in accordance with the directional arrow on the sidewall regardless of which way the pattern runs.
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Old 07-09-2007, 07:43 AM
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Re: Odd Questions - Tire Mounting

In UK there's no contest. The DOT testers check the tire/wheel direction and if it's wrong the bike fails the test. Cars are the same. But work out what happens when the spare in the trunk has a direction arrow on it!

Tire changers can get the covers on wrong, so here's how you make sure:

The rear is easy as the wheel shaft is on the left and they see many monoshock bikes that way round.

The front is not so easy if they aren't Beemer dealers or the ABS ring and rotors are off. Sitting on the bike, the BMW part and manufacturing references for the front rim are on the right side on my KRS.

When the covers are next off, paint or felt tip mark a big direction arrow on the inside center of the rim, do it at opposite ends in case the tire changer has bad eyesight.

My opinion is there's no need for a poll since for various reasons already posted, it's either right and safe or wrong - and that's what the insurance assessor will say.
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Old 07-09-2007, 10:13 AM
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Re: Odd Questions - Tire Mounting

Quote:
Originally Posted by voxmagna
Tire changers can get the covers on wrong, so here's how you make sure:

The front is not so easy if they aren't Beemer dealers or the ABS ring and rotors are off. Sitting on the bike, the BMW part and manufacturing references for the front rim are on the right side on my KRS.
Good information here Vox. Had I been aware that the manufacturing references belonged on the right, all would have been well indeed.


Quote:
Originally Posted by voxmagna
When the covers are next off, paint or felt tip mark a big direction arrow on the inside center of the rim, do it at opposite ends in case the tire changer has bad eyesight.
Hey now, it's getting personal . I WAS the tire changer, just so happened that I was 230 miles from my bike while doing it and I didn't have another BMW/K12RS close by to reference. Now if I had been THINKING... well, I could have called one of the many friends that I've made on this site or posted the question as a thread and done it correctly the first time. Live and learn I suppose.


Quote:
Originally Posted by voxmagna
My opinion is there's no need for a poll since for various reasons already posted, it's either right and safe or wrong - and that's what the insurance assessor will say.
Insurance assessor??? Crash??? Not me
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Old 07-09-2007, 11:56 AM
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Re: Odd Questions - Tire Mounting

I don't wish to upset tire changers, but recent experience taught me a few things. I had a 60% worn rear and a nearly new front pulled off the rims to get them bead blasted and re-painted. I took all the precautions about rotation, since a previous poster here asked about the direction for the front rim off the bike.

I took the newly painted rims back to a dealer having tried 3 who either couldn't do a balance or could only balance the front. Apparently their equipment needs a special tool for Beemer rears. It was on this visit when I hoped to get my tires back on spanking new look rims I hit a big problem. The dealer noticed a rip in the tire bead which he said was caused by the machine when the cover was removed and refused to mount the tire.

OK so I could go back to the dealer who pulled it off and try to claim back 40% of the remaining tire wear - they couldn't balance anyway. Better to put it down to a bad experience, draw up a q&a list for the future and be more careful. Here's what I've come up with, chime in with anything else:

1. Can you balance both front and rear wheels off a K1200?
2. Do you have rim guard protectors for the ali rims?
3. Can you check for leaks, after the tires are mounted?
4. How do you stop bead damage when installing/removing a tire?

In UK the shops charge about $10-15 per wheel to fit a new cover, so buying a tire changer and storing it is not the best option, unless I struggle to find a decent fitter. I peeked into the service shop of my far away BMW stealer recently and they have a pretty fancy tire changer.
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Old 07-19-2007, 11:53 PM
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Re: Odd Questions - Tire Mounting

In this case I'd vote for the "Most Conservative Action".

The arrows must be there for a reason.

You'll probably be fine with the tires mounted backwards indefinitely.

But as soon as you acknkowlege that, you admit that you may possibly not be fine.

Not worth the risk in my book.
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Old 01-09-2008, 10:53 PM
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Re: Odd Questions - Tire Mounting

There are now two main reasons for directional arrows. The first being that some motorcycle tires now have tread patterns that are designed for a specific rotation for optimum performance, particularly on wet roads. Directional arrows indicate proper directional rotation.

Secondly, running a tire will set up a wear pattern that may cause ride disturbance if reversed. The directional arrow insures that a tire can be re-fitted in the original direction.
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  #38  
Old 10-06-2009, 05:55 AM
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Re: Odd Questions - Tire Mounting

That's all well and good.
But what if the arrow mold at the tire factory is wrong
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Old 10-06-2009, 12:36 PM
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Re: Odd Questions - Tire Mounting

Quote:
Originally Posted by smegtheprez
That's all well and good.
But what if the arrow mold at the tire factory is wrong

"Our tire QA procedures are so good Sir and the molding machine does tread and sidewalls at the same time, so unless they got a bad mold (which would have been picked up by our QA), our tires will never come out wrong. BMW riders are much pickier than Hardly riders, so they would let us know if on a 0.001% probability we got something wrong.

Anyway, since everybody looking at wheels and tires only ever goes by our very important tire markings. If we got it wrong and you die, then your relatives have only us to blame - Unless we can show you were riding your motorcycle recklessly and at excessive speeds (Our QA can tell that from your tire skid wear Sir). We have deep pockets for compensation claims, but also good Lawyers!

I hope you now feel reassured and confident when you buy our tires that we made them correct Sir - Have a nice day".
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Old 10-06-2009, 06:49 PM
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Re: Odd Questions - Tire Mounting

Quote:
Originally Posted by voxmagna
"Our tire QA procedures are so good Sir and the molding machine does tread and sidewalls at the same time, so unless they got a bad mold (which would have been picked up by our QA), our tires will never come out wrong. BMW riders are much pickier than Hardly riders, so they would let us know if on a 0.001% probability we got something wrong.

Anyway, since everybody looking at wheels and tires only ever goes by our very important tire markings. If we got it wrong and you die, then your relatives have only us to blame - Unless we can show you were riding your motorcycle recklessly and at excessive speeds (Our QA can tell that from your tire skid wear Sir). We have deep pockets for compensation claims, but also good Lawyers!

I hope you now feel reassured and confident when you buy our tires that we made them correct Sir - Have a nice day".

Funny...I heard that exact same story from many companies over the years.
Firestone and Ford come to mind...
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  #41  
Old 10-10-2009, 11:48 AM
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Re: Odd Questions - Tire Mounting

Very enlightening and entertaining thread.
Don't know how I missed this gem from .. what... 3..4 years ago...

Thanks guys!
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  #42  
Old 10-10-2009, 03:53 PM
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Re: Odd Questions - Tire Mounting

tyre construction has changed much for motorcycle tyres

initally the concern was over comfort

actually riding over the splices that were required in construction

in addition the directional concern was over delamination of the carcass

that the G forces might cause the tyre to deconstruct

[ mostly bias ply construction ]

hardly a concern with all radial construction these days

the pirelli " MIRS " construction alleviates many of those concerns
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  #43  
Old 10-20-2009, 11:28 PM
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Re: Odd Questions - Tire Mounting

Quote:
Originally Posted by CJS350
As I understand it, the directional arrow is put on the tire based upon how the cords are joined, and that the directional arrow reflects the best tire rotation direction under braking. In theory, with the tire rotating in the wrong direction, under braking the joint in the cords could separate causing no end of fun.

I've never heard of this happening and I imagine that it would take some very severe braking to make it an issue.

However, as I understand that is why the tires have rotational arrows.

Hope that helps.

That is correct!I learned that at 16 when my Dad started selling Michelin tires and we all went to a day course put out by them.
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  #44  
Old 12-27-2009, 07:42 PM
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Re: Odd Questions - Tire Mounting

If it never rained, we wouldn't need treads... unless you ride dirt.
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Old 01-13-2010, 11:39 AM
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Re: Odd Questions - Tire Mounting

.......but we need the cords to hold together, rain or no rain!
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Old 01-14-2010, 07:09 AM
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Re: Odd Questions - Tire Mounting

Quote:
Originally Posted by voxmagna
.......but we need the cords to hold together, rain or no rain!

How does that make a difference when the tire is used for both traction (drive wheel) AND braking?

(edited: to add 'drive wheel')

Last edited by cousi : 01-14-2010 at 01:23 PM.
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Old 01-14-2010, 07:16 AM
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Re: Odd Questions - Tire Mounting

Quote:
Originally Posted by cousi
How does that make a difference when the tire is used for both traction AND braking?

Man it's way too early for this type of existential question...


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  #48  
Old 01-22-2010, 12:27 PM
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Re: Odd Questions - Tire Mounting

Quote:
Originally Posted by George_in_KG
I have a tire changer and I'm only 50 miles away from you. So come up here, fix the mounting mistake and quit worrying about it.

I promise not to make fun of you for F-up.

But be sure to bring a 12 pack of a good IPA!!!
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  #49  
Old 03-03-2010, 12:32 PM
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Re: Odd Questions - Tire Mounting

How do tires fail?

Does rotational direction affect the puncture resistance? ...no

Does rotational direction affect the rubber wear rate? ...no

Does rotational direction affect the rubber aging? ...no

Does rotational direction affect the sidewall strength? ...no

Overloaded tires flex more, wear faster and run hot... Punctured tires leak air... Underinflated tires flex more, wear faster and run hot... Heat and flexing accelerates cord separation... Old rubber cracks and pulls away from the cords... Rotational direction is irrelevant.

Hydroplaning is a problem with flat faced tires, like on cars and trucks. Motorcycle tires do not have a flat face, to trap the water. If you look at the rain grooves on sport tires, you quickly notice they are too narrow to serve any useful purpose other than being an indicator of tire wear. In 40 years of all weather highway riding, I couldn't begin to count the number of times I've hit standing water. It's a common occurance any time it's raining heavily, sometimes happening several times per mile. But the number of times I've hydroplaned is exactly zero, no matter how worn the tires were.

I and thousands of other riders have routinely ridden on tires mounted backwards. If you overload the tire or underinflate it, it wears out faster. If you ride on tires that are rated for the speed, weight and pressure you run, they wear normally.

The arrows are for people who exceed the tire's rating in some way. The lawyers get to use that detail against you, if you end up in court and they can prove the tire was mounted 'backwards'.

regards,
Joe
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  #50  
Old 03-04-2010, 01:03 PM
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Re: Odd Questions - Tire Mounting

So, we've come full circle

Some who think I would put myself into an eminent failure situation causing harm to life and limb as the tire would come apart at the cords during my ride at very unlawful speeds...

to "sloowpoke" who says "
I and thousands of other riders have routinely ridden on tires mounted backwards. <snip> The arrows are for people who exceed the tire's rating in some way."

I guess if my choices were "not exceeding the tires rating (although I believe it was a Z rated tire) for speed, or take the 60 mile trek to George_in_KG's house to fix it I did the proper thing in fixing it... no way I could wear a tire out without exceeding the speed ...

Over the winter I had actually come to my own conclusion on this for a more permanent fix. I just bought a Nomar changer and Parnes balancer so now I'll just do them myself here at my house.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sloowpoke
How do tires fail?

Does rotational direction affect the puncture resistance? ...no

Does rotational direction affect the rubber wear rate? ...no

Does rotational direction affect the rubber aging? ...no

Does rotational direction affect the sidewall strength? ...no

Overloaded tires flex more, wear faster and run hot... Punctured tires leak air... Underinflated tires flex more, wear faster and run hot... Heat and flexing accelerates cord separation... Old rubber cracks and pulls away from the cords... Rotational direction is irrelevant.

Hydroplaning is a problem with flat faced tires, like on cars and trucks. Motorcycle tires do not have a flat face, to trap the water. If you look at the rain grooves on sport tires, you quickly notice they are too narrow to serve any useful purpose other than being an indicator of tire wear. In 40 years of all weather highway riding, I couldn't begin to count the number of times I've hit standing water. It's a common occurance any time it's raining heavily, sometimes happening several times per mile. But the number of times I've hydroplaned is exactly zero, no matter how worn the tires were.

I and thousands of other riders have routinely ridden on tires mounted backwards. If you overload the tire or underinflate it, it wears out faster. If you ride on tires that are rated for the speed, weight and pressure you run, they wear normally.

The arrows are for people who exceed the tire's rating in some way. The lawyers get to use that detail against you, if you end up in court and they can prove the tire was mounted 'backwards'.

regards,
Joe
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Old 03-05-2010, 02:58 PM
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Re: Odd Questions - Tire Mounting

If all you look at is the speed rating, you are fine until you use the brakes. Most people never think about how heavily they are loading the front tire, during hard braking. On my K12GT I'm looking at loading the front tire up to about 900 pounds peak weight during hard braking, when riding one up. Since the front tire is only rated for 520 pounds max load, I try to avoid situations where I might have to brake hard. When you buy a new front tire, do you make sure you are buying a tire that can handle the full weight of bike, passengers and cargo during braking? If not, you are probably exceeding the tire's rating. Likewise if you run less than the tire manufacturer's recommended max load psi in the tire, it is likely being overloaded even during mild braking.

Doing a 'stoppie' puts more weight on the front tire than the total combined weight of bike, riders & cargo. If I recall correctly, it's possible to reach a peak load of double that combined weight, just before losing control and tumbling over the front end, but I no longer recall the math necessary to calculate various loads at different angles of stoppie. I think that double weight peak would occur when a straight line originating at the contact patch and passing through the combined center of mass, is at an elevation of 45 degrees. Depending on rider/cargo weight distribution, that may happen as early as when the rear tire is only elevated 10 degrees.

The same factors apply to the rear tire weight load, during acceleration and wheelies. Do you still think you are not exceeding your tire ratings?

regards,
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  #52  
Old 03-05-2010, 07:06 PM
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Re: Odd Questions - Tire Mounting

Quote:
Originally Posted by sloowpoke
Doing a 'stoppie' puts more weight on the front tire than the total combined weight of bike, riders & cargo.
I don't think that's possible. Where does the extra weight come from? Now, I understand what you're saying. Heavy braking and acceleration cause additional forces to be applied to the tires, but the vertical component won't ever be above the total weight of the motorcycle+rider+gear unless you're landing from a jump or otherwise accelerating upwards.

The extra forces will still apply horizontal stresses to the tire, increasing heat, strain, etc. I'm sure a good motorcycle can decelerate in a straight line at a rate approaching the acceleration of gravity (32 ft/s/s which would be about 2.75 seconds from 60 mph to 0), so that might be where your "double" figure comes from, but the horizontal deceleration and weight (vertical) on the tire act in separate planes.

Quote:
Do you still think you are not exceeding your tire ratings?
AFAIK, the load ratings are for "continuous operation", meaning the manufacturers take dynamic loads that may briefly exceed the rating into account. For instance, the standard P-metric load ratings for tires mounted on cars is lowered by 9% when the exact same tires are mounted on light trucks/SUVs. The tire hasn't changed, but the tire manufacturers understand that the dynamic load on the tire might be greater due to the higher center of gravity of trucks (resulting in greater weight transfer under braking, cornering, etc). The end user doesn't have to calculate the weight transfer when the truck is fully loaded and braking heavily if they follow the P-metric guidlines. Same goes for motorcycle tires. Now, I'm not saying it's a good idea to take a fully loaded beemer out for some stoppie fun, but there's no need to break out the slide rule when looking for tires.

I'm not disagreeing with you, just letting my inner nerd out for some exercise. I'm open to correction from any physics types out there.
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  #53  
Old 07-18-2010, 04:06 PM
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George_in_KG George_in_KG is offline
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Re: Odd Questions - Tire Mounting

I'll bite. Why do you ignore a manufacturer's recommendations and intentionally mount your tires backward? What problem are you trying to solve by reversing the tire?


Quote:
Originally Posted by sloowpoke
.......
I and thousands of other riders have routinely ridden on tires mounted backwards. ..........

regards,
Joe
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  #54  
Old 07-18-2010, 05:07 PM
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reppans reppans is offline
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Re: Odd Questions - Tire Mounting

Quote:
Originally Posted by George_in_KG
I'll bite. Why do you ignore a manufacturer's recommendations and intentionally mount your tires backward? What problem are you trying to solve by reversing the tire?

Now that is an interesting idea.....

How about to even out left side tire wear? I still have a decent amount of rubber down the center of my rear tire. I think I could get another 20-25% mileage out of my tires that way .
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Old 08-02-2010, 08:19 PM
mudman mudman is offline
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Re: Odd Questions - Tire Mounting

The manufacturers say, "There is more probability of tire ply separation" if the tires are run to the reverse of the recommended direction. Personally I don't see any possible advantage to doing this. Why tempt fate? Does anyone know of any CONFIRMED logical or sane reason for doing this? Show me.*************************MdMn********
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  #56  
Old 09-04-2010, 07:21 PM
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Brokerecord Brokerecord is offline
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Re: Odd Questions - Tire Mounting

I have deliberately reversed my front tire on my Honda Hornet several times. From hard braking I assume, the front starts trying to cup, with the tread blocks getting sharp on one side and rounded on the other. When I notice this I flip the wheel and leave the correct spacer with the fork legs it mates too. Cold, heat, rain, and dirt roads, I can not tell any difference except, I pick up 3K extra miles before I'm to the bars. I never go past the wear bars. I think the arrow is more for liability protection then actual harm, on a street tire. I ride my bikes like I paid for them and riding over my head is taboo on the streets.
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Old 09-23-2010, 09:24 PM
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Doctor D Doctor D is offline
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Re: Odd Questions - Tire Mounting

Quote:
Originally Posted by voxmagna
That's what I think is the situation. You also need to look at the tread pattern which is not always symmetrical. It's designed to push water away from the tire in the correct direction to reduce aquaplaning.

Look at these 2 pics of my Battleaxe 020 front, shot straight on, with one photo rotated 180. I think you can crudely see that in the correct fitting trapped water would be moved away from the tread, but in the reversed example it's trapped by the tread. I trust my life to the tire designers and the fitting marks they put on the tire.

I've always marked my rim directions with a white arrow, because I know even tire shops get it wrong.

Just toss those shoes!!
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Old 09-27-2010, 11:20 AM
voxmagna voxmagna is offline
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Re: Odd Questions - Tire Mounting

They were supplied as 'BMW original equipment' on my bike and that's what I kept with until recently.

I've been riding on Avon Storms for a while now and they just don't seem to be wearing out or cupping. But I know the reason for that.
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