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"K12GT" Technical Q&A K1200GT-'NG'- Technical Questions/Answers

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  #1  
Old 01-21-2016, 02:05 AM
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Eureka!!

Some of you may remember my ongoing repair work on my 08 GT's ABS... specifically, the problem with the ATE ABS (aka "I-ABS2") pump motor brushes that get stuck.

When I had it apart last time, I wanted to remove the plastic end plate on the motor to get at the brushes to free them up. This was really hard because there a ball bearing installed hard against the plate, and you cannot get a puller under it to pull the bearing off.

The only successful way until now, was to TIG weld something to the bearing to get hold of the bearing to pull it off.

Since I don't have a TIG, and anyway, I didn't fancy welding only a few mm away from the plastic plate, I came up with a different idea.

Looking at the photos below, I used a Dremel with an abrasive cutoff disk to cut 2 slots in the side of the bearing (one on each side) then grabbed it with an oddball puller I had.

One minor detail was that the end of the motor shaft is eccentric (you can see it in the last photo below), and VERY hard. So I machined a little aluminum cap that fits over the end of the shaft, and has an offset pilot hole on the other side to accept the pointed end of the puller screw.

As you can see from the photos, it worked like a hot damn!
Attached Images
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File Type: jpg 20160120_203040.jpg (87.3 KB, 149 views)
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.... moved to Kelowna BC in the beautiful wine country of the Okanagan Valley.

- '08 K1200GT, metallic charcoal/silver
- '86 K100RT, Diamantgrau Metallic (great old girl!).
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  #2  
Old 01-21-2016, 05:50 AM
paulmogs paulmogs is offline
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Re: Eureka!!

Well done Bob, bit of lateral thinking.

If you lived round the corner,.. would have used my TIG.
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Old 01-21-2016, 01:05 PM
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Re: Eureka!!

Well, you impressed me again.
This is why l always ask for your advice when l am into unfamiliar territory with these machines
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Old 01-21-2016, 01:10 PM
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Re: Eureka!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by paulmogs
Well done Bob, bit of lateral thinking.

If you lived round the corner,.. would have used my TIG.

Thanks Paul! That would certainly have solved the problem!

By the way, as a back up, I bought a used ABS unit off EBAY that came out of a Ford Fiesta. The pump motor appeared identical to the ATE one in the bike.

Well NOT QUITE identical as it turned out! There is one difference, and that is in the eccentricity of the motor output shaft. The motor output shaft from the Ford ABS is more eccentric than the stock motor shaft. The eccentric shaft is what drives the ABS pump pistons, and thus the Ford pump motor will result in the internal pump pistons having more stroke.

Not sure if this is a problem or not, so just to be safe, I will re-use the stock motor, but replace its plastic end plate and brush assembly, with the plastic end plate and brushes from the Ford unit. This way, I keep the stock motor and its output shaft, but get a near-new set of motor brushes.
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.... moved to Kelowna BC in the beautiful wine country of the Okanagan Valley.

- '08 K1200GT, metallic charcoal/silver
- '86 K100RT, Diamantgrau Metallic (great old girl!).
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Old 01-21-2016, 01:12 PM
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Re: Eureka!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by usm1
Well, you impressed me again.
This is why l always ask for your advice when l am into unfamiliar territory with these machines

Hey Mike,

Thanks for the nice words!
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.... moved to Kelowna BC in the beautiful wine country of the Okanagan Valley.

- '08 K1200GT, metallic charcoal/silver
- '86 K100RT, Diamantgrau Metallic (great old girl!).
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  #6  
Old 01-11-2017, 12:42 PM
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Re: Eureka!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by RFW
Thanks Paul! That would certainly have solved the problem!

By the way, as a back up, I bought a used ABS unit off EBAY that came out of a Ford Fiesta. The pump motor appeared identical to the ATE one in the bike.

Well NOT QUITE identical as it turned out! There is one difference, and that is in the eccentricity of the motor output shaft. The motor output shaft from the Ford ABS is more eccentric than the stock motor shaft. The eccentric shaft is what drives the ABS pump pistons, and thus the Ford pump motor will result in the internal pump pistons having more stroke.

Not sure if this is a problem or not, so just to be safe, I will re-use the stock motor, but replace its plastic end plate and brush assembly, with the plastic end plate and brushes from the Ford unit. This way, I keep the stock motor and its output shaft, but get a near-new set of motor brushes.

I also re used a Ford ABS Pump motor.
I compared the holes of the BMW as well as the Ford Hydraulic unit where the bearing of the motor drives the pump pistons, but did not find any difference in diameter.
It could be that excentricity is a little bit different.
But I successfully mounted a Ford motor onto the BMW unit and all works fine.

I am also busy with creating a hand made bearing remover, which consists of a metal tube with inner diameter of 27mm.
For details please wait for pictures which will be added here soon.
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Old 01-11-2017, 09:06 PM
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Re: Eureka!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by damted
I compared the holes of the BMW as well as the Ford Hydraulic unit where the bearing of the motor drives the pump pistons, but did not find any difference in diameter.
It could be that eccentricity is a little bit different.
The eccentricity of the motor output shafts are indeed different. It is the eccentricity on the end of the output shaft that is what drives the pump. Since the BMW's eccentricity is a little different than that of the Fiesta's output shaft, I assumed there was a reason for it, so it seemed prudent to reuse the BMW's rotor with its (presumably) correct amount of eccentricity, and just swapped the brushes and brush mounting plate (which was all that was defective in the the first place).
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No more "Vancouver.... the Blond Bimbo of Cities" for me
.... moved to Kelowna BC in the beautiful wine country of the Okanagan Valley.

- '08 K1200GT, metallic charcoal/silver
- '86 K100RT, Diamantgrau Metallic (great old girl!).
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Old 01-12-2017, 10:41 AM
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Re: Eureka!!

Good work Bob.
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  #9  
Old 01-13-2017, 01:35 AM
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Re: Eureka!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by damted
I am also busy with creating a hand made bearing remover, which consists of a metal tube with inner diameter of 27mm..

See post Number 1 in this thread. As you can see, all you need to cleanly pull off the bearing is a Dremel and a couple of thin abrasive cutoff disks, and a suitable puller. It takes all of 10 minutes!

In any case, no matter how you pull the bearing off, applying force to the outer race (needed to pull the INNER race off the shaft), will damage the bearing.

A new sealed bearing (required!) is easy to get and costs less than $10. The bearing needed is a type 6000 bearing, sealed (not just shielded) both sides.

When installing the new bearing, be SURE that it is only pressed into place using force ONLY on the inner race. DO NOT press on the new bearing's outer race! The dimension from the surface of inner race to the end of the motor shaft, must be EXACTLY the same as it was for the old bearing before removal.

To do this accurately, I machined a tubular sleeve of exactly the correct length, that slid over the motor shaft and rested against the inner race. I pressed on the free end of the sleeve, which pushed on the bearing's inner race. When the bearing was pressed onto the shaft by the exact amount, the press bottomed on the end of the motor shaft, preventing the sleeve from pressing the bearing any further.

However you decide to press on the bearing, remember, it is a one-way trip! If it is pushed on too far, trying to pull it back will ruin the bearing.
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No more "Vancouver.... the Blond Bimbo of Cities" for me
.... moved to Kelowna BC in the beautiful wine country of the Okanagan Valley.

- '08 K1200GT, metallic charcoal/silver
- '86 K100RT, Diamantgrau Metallic (great old girl!).
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  #10  
Old 01-15-2017, 08:41 AM
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Re: Eureka!!

Thanks Bob.

Either way you will destroy the old bearing.
Costs only about $ 1,- for replacement.
I also had to grind some sleeves into the outer ring of the bearing to get a grip.
When pressing back the bearing I made sure I left 12mm of Axis and not any less or more and that's the size I measured before removing the old bearing.

You also showed a nice bearer pulling device.
I think best suited for this work will be something like this:
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Old 01-16-2017, 12:13 AM
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Re: Eureka!!

I know another trick for removing bearings from blind holes. Find a rod or shaft just a tiny bit smaller than the original shaft then fill the hole in the bearing with heavy grease. Using the shaft, place it in the hole and smack it with a heavy hammer and it will usually force the bearing out from hydraulic pressure.
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Old 01-20-2017, 01:48 PM
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Re: Eureka!!

Some new pictures from the work I did today:
First of all, removing the bearing from the shaft:


I discovered that the ABS motor from a Ford Fiesta also contains some extra electronics (inductive copper windings). This wil also reduce high current peaks.

Picture of the new brushes:


I also measured the difference in excentricity between BMW ABS and Ford ABS motor.
This differs quite a lot.
BMW about 1 mm and Ford about 2mm excentricity.
So that's double or half the capacity, just how you compare.
So I did the same as TS and used the brushes from the Ford and the rest from the BMW motor.

A tip for removing the plastic cover without breaking the tabs:
just drill 2 holes of about 3mm diameter just after the locking edges.
on YouTube there is also a good video about that subject.
then use a spoke from a bicycle wheel and bend that in the right shape.
By gently pressing into the drilled locks you can get the cover upwards.

I am getting experienced with this
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  #13  
Old 01-20-2017, 09:23 PM
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Re: Eureka!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by damted
You also showed a nice bearer pulling device.
I think best suited for this work will be something like this:

Yup! That's almost idenetical to the one I used !!!
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No more "Vancouver.... the Blond Bimbo of Cities" for me
.... moved to Kelowna BC in the beautiful wine country of the Okanagan Valley.

- '08 K1200GT, metallic charcoal/silver
- '86 K100RT, Diamantgrau Metallic (great old girl!).
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  #14  
Old 01-20-2017, 09:30 PM
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Re: Eureka!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by damted
I discovered that the ABS motor from a Ford Fiesta also contains some extra electronics (inductive copper windings). This wil also reduce high current peaks.

Picture of the new brushes:



Those "coils" are inductors, and have far too little inductance to have an effect on peak current. Their actual purpose is to block EMI (electrical noise) which is nomally generated by the action of the commutator/brushes of any electric motor, from getting into the vehicle's electrical system. Apparently, they are not needed on the bike, but do no harm either.
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No more "Vancouver.... the Blond Bimbo of Cities" for me
.... moved to Kelowna BC in the beautiful wine country of the Okanagan Valley.

- '08 K1200GT, metallic charcoal/silver
- '86 K100RT, Diamantgrau Metallic (great old girl!).
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Old 01-27-2017, 12:58 PM
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Re: Eureka!!

This is a link to YouTube.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6m2H-nC0CqE

Good instruction how to remove the plastic cover without breaking the tabs.
The only thing what should be changed is to first remove the bearing.

This makes it far more easy to remove the cover without damaging anything.
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Old 01-27-2017, 04:34 PM
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Re: Eureka!!

Let's hear it for the eureka moment!
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Old 02-25-2017, 11:25 AM
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Re: Eureka!!

Very impressed gents. Had my ABS out today as it had seized over the winter and it had been laid up for 8 weeks or so.
I had the brush cages out and then separated (Not ideal I know), and filed the brushes down slightly to free them up. I wonder if the brush material is at fault as there seems to be 'splits' in the outer surface of the brushes which could be making the material expand. There did seem to be a slight bowing on the straight surfaces where I expected it to be flat.

I'm rather interested with the fiesta ABS solution that you have developed. Is there any particular model/specification that you have used?
Most of the Fiesta ATE ABS motors seem to start with 10.0212 followed by a series of other numbers such as -0921.4 or -0728.4.
My '07 K1200R ABS motor is 10.0214-5003.4
I have spent quite a bit of time searching but can't find out what these numbers relate to...
Any ideas?
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  #18  
Old 03-03-2017, 03:49 AM
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Re: Eureka!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by usm1
Well, you impressed me again.
This is why l always ask for your advice when l am into unfamiliar territory with these machines
That definitely makes two of us!
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Old 05-31-2017, 07:08 AM
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Re: Eureka!!

Good investigations from your side, how far (mileage) have you driven with the Fiesta pump motor so far, and does the ABS still works ?

Greetings from Cologne , Germany
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Old 05-31-2017, 10:04 AM
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Re: Eureka!!

He's busy with his S2000 these days...
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  #21  
Old 05-31-2017, 02:43 PM
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Re: Eureka!!

I don't understand, you work on a Honda car S2000?
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Old 05-31-2017, 06:46 PM
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Re: Eureka!!

He's a brilliant tinkerer!

These days gets his kicks from that sweet little spinner that he picked up last summer ...

Cheers
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  #23  
Old 06-01-2017, 01:09 AM
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Re: Eureka!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike58
Good investigations from your side, how far (mileage) have you driven with the Fiesta pump motor so far, and does the ABS still works ?

Greetings from Cologne , Germany


...und Grüß auch von Kelowna Canada!

Nearly 8000km. But it wasn't actually a Fiesta "MOTOR".... I only used the motor brush plate and brushes assembly. The armature and motor housing (with field Magnets) was all the original BMW/Teves parts.

And yes... a year and a half later, it still works PERFECTLY!
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No more "Vancouver.... the Blond Bimbo of Cities" for me
.... moved to Kelowna BC in the beautiful wine country of the Okanagan Valley.

- '08 K1200GT, metallic charcoal/silver
- '86 K100RT, Diamantgrau Metallic (great old girl!).
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Old 06-01-2017, 01:12 AM
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Re: Eureka!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Louis
He's a brilliant tinkerer!

Thanks, Louis... I think!

Quote:
These days gets his kicks from that sweet little spinner that he picked up last summer ...

You got THAT right!
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No more "Vancouver.... the Blond Bimbo of Cities" for me
.... moved to Kelowna BC in the beautiful wine country of the Okanagan Valley.

- '08 K1200GT, metallic charcoal/silver
- '86 K100RT, Diamantgrau Metallic (great old girl!).
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Old 06-01-2017, 02:35 AM
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Re: Eureka!!

Thanks, but then I have to go through the whole exercise of bearing removal again. I hoped to find a 'shortcut' i.e. quickrepair to give hope to other BMW riders as well. Get a Fiesta ABS , exchange the motor to the BMW and you are done. Do you think the exta EMI coils and the different excentric is an issue ?

Greeting from Cologne
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Old 06-01-2017, 04:57 PM
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Re: Eureka!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike58
Get a Fiesta ABS , exchange the motor to the BMW and you are done.

NO!!!! Do NOT simply exchange the motor! As I explained previously, the end of the motor shaft is machined excentrically, and it is this that actually drives the pump itself which consists of 2 small pistons at right angles to each other and located inside the big aluminum block.

The ABS unit used in the Fieista has (intentionally) more eccetricity at the end of its motor shaft than the stock BMW unit. I do not know for sure that this is a problem, but there HAS to be a reason why this excentricity on the BMW's motor shaft is LESS than that of the Fiesta unit... SO, it is safest to re-use the motor casing with its field magnets, and also to re-use the armature.

Therefore, you should ONLY exchange the Fiesta brush plate together with its (new) brushes. The brushes in the Fiesta ABS are slightly more "loose" in their brush holders and will not jam like the BMW's brushes do.

Quote:
Do you think the exta EMI coils and the different excentric is an issue ?

The 2 inductors have NO AFFECT WHATSOEVER on the functioning of the motor. All they do is to block high frequency electrical "noise" from being conducted out of the motor into the vehicle's wiring, and potenially affecting the vehicle's electronic system. Apparently this is not a problem with BMW bikes, since the stock ABS doesn't use them. But they cause no harm just being there either.

As far as the excentricity of the motor output shaft is concerned, as I said above, we simply do not know for sure if this is a potential problem or not, nor do we know if the field magnets are the same strength on both units. ....so play it safe and re-use the motor housing and the armature!
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No more "Vancouver.... the Blond Bimbo of Cities" for me
.... moved to Kelowna BC in the beautiful wine country of the Okanagan Valley.

- '08 K1200GT, metallic charcoal/silver
- '86 K100RT, Diamantgrau Metallic (great old girl!).
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Old 06-02-2017, 05:12 AM
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Re: Eureka!!

Looking on a picture of the Fiesta unit, it has 6 vs 4 tappings, because of 4 vs 2 wheels on car vs motocycle, I thinks thats the reason why they need higher stroke on the pump to provide the same system pressure. I will buy a used BMW ABS and (!!) a Fiesta unit to repair mine as a backup.

Thanks so far
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Old 06-02-2017, 12:24 PM
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Re: Eureka!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by RFW
Thanks, Louis... I think!



You got THAT right!


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There's never enough time to do it right... But there's always enough time to do it over!
This is only a good thing when applied to riding... or sex!
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Ride West 2009 http://www.i-bmw.com/showthread.php?t=24292
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Old 06-02-2017, 03:37 PM
Mike58 Mike58 is offline
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Re: Eureka!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by damted
I also re used a Ford ABS Pump motor.
I compared the holes of the BMW as well as the Ford Hydraulic unit where the bearing of the motor drives the pump pistons, but did not find any difference in diameter.
It could be that excentricity is a little bit different.
But I successfully mounted a Ford motor onto the BMW unit and all works fine.

I am also busy with creating a hand made bearing remover, which consists of a metal tube with inner diameter of 27mm.
For details please wait for pictures which will be added here soon.

Have you really used the fiesta pump motor with the higher exentricity on your BMW ?
How many mileage have you accumulated after the repair and does it still work ?
Greetings
Mike from cologne , Germany
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  #30  
Old 11-01-2018, 05:08 PM
damted damted is offline
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Re: Eureka!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike58
Have you really used the fiesta pump motor with the higher exentricity on your BMW ?
How many mileage have you accumulated after the repair and does it still work ?
Greetings
Mike from cologne , Germany

Sorry for very late reply.
I do not visit this forum very often.
ABS still working fine with this motor replacement.
I think already 4 years and 50000 km
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  #31  
Old 11-02-2018, 02:44 PM
Mike58 Mike58 is offline
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Re: Eureka!!

I have now used the brush plate from the Ford Fiesta, it first failed after a while, but then it worked so far for the moment, not only the failure code disappeared, the ABS worked when braking hard. I have a backup from a 1300 as well in case of. Thanls for the longterm experience reply.
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