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View Poll Results: Do you routinely warm up your bike before driving off?
Yes, essential to warm your bike properly. 44 39.29%
No, its just a waste of time and fuel. 68 60.71%
Voters: 112. You may not vote until 'registered'. Please go here: http://www.i-bmw.com/register.php

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  #1  
Old 02-06-2017, 08:16 PM
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Warming Up Your Bike: Essential or Waste of Fuel?

Soliciting some opinions. My riding foundation was built on 2-stroke dirt bikes and 4-strokes with carbs. For 2-strokes a warmup is essential for the long term health of the engine. For 4-strokes a warm up was necessary if you didn't want to have to fiddle with a manual choke as the you were driving away. With the advent of modern fuel injection the manipulation of the choke is no longer necessary. I've just started to break my old warmup habits and am starting my bike and immediately driving away cold but at low RPM and moderate pace just like I do with my truck. What procedure are you all following and am I doing an harm to the engine by not warming it up? (I'm running 0w-40 synthetic year round to help facilitate oil flow at startup).
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Old 02-06-2017, 08:21 PM
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Re: Warming Up Your Bike: Essential or Waste of Fuel?

you are doing it right. leaving engines idling to warm up does no good. it will take a long time for the engine coolant to get warm and the critical oil will most likely never warm up enough. best warm up is exactly as you are doing, under light load. roll off immediately and just be sane until engine (and tires) come up to temp. keep in mind that coolant temp being normal is not "warmed up". the engine oil is what needs to be warm and that generally takes many minutes more than the coolant to get warm.
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Old 02-06-2017, 08:54 PM
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Re: Warming Up Your Bike: Essential or Waste of Fuel?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aggie86
Soliciting some opinions. My riding foundation was built on 2-stroke dirt bikes and 4-strokes with carbs. For 2-strokes a warmup is essential for the long term health of the engine. For 4-strokes a warm up was necessary if you didn't want to have to fiddle with a manual choke as the you were driving away. With the advent of modern fuel injection the manipulation of the choke is no longer necessary. I've just started to break my old warmup habits and am starting my bike and immediately driving away cold but at low RPM and moderate pace just like I do with my truck. What procedure are you all following and am I doing an harm to the engine by not warming it up? (I'm running 0w-40 synthetic year round to help facilitate oil flow at startup).

I voted YES because this was the closest choice for me, BUT you really need to make a more precise poll with various choices / context:

(1) around 70 F (20 C) or above, assuming the bike was parked overnight at similar temp, I agree that warming up more than 30 seconds would be a loss of time/fuel on a modern electronic fuel-injected 4-stroke engine.

(2) However, as the storage temp (overnight) go down, then some "proportional" warm-up time is appropriate.
Not a hard rule, but something roughly like this:
- if stopped for more than 8 hours at ambient temp 65 F, then I will let is warm up about 1 minute.
- If ..... 8 hours at ambient temp 55 F, then I will let is warm up about 2:00 minute.

Never more than 3 minutes, even in colder temp, but taking it slowly in RPM for 4 to 5 minutes of driving (or until I see some life in coolant temp.... because I cannot see / measure engine oil temp on my dash).

P.S.: For each vehicle I drive / ride, I also study/notice the "auto fast-idle" RPM going down delay as a point to tell me what the designer taught about needed mixture / rpm compensation. In general, on a modern fuel-injected engine, once the auto fast-idle RPM has come down back to normal idle, the state of the EFI has changed (including the O2 sensor response).
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Old 02-06-2017, 11:10 PM
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Re: Warming Up Your Bike: Essential or Waste of Fuel?

Jean. What are your thoughts about starting our bikes when they are in long term storage, such as here in Montana where there can be snow and ice on the roads for 4 to 5 months, thus preventing even short rides. Is it better to start the bike periodically, like every month? Will there be significantly more wear if I just let it sit all winter without starting it?
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Old 02-06-2017, 11:27 PM
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Re: Warming Up Your Bike: Essential or Waste of Fuel?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobby
Jean. What are your thoughts about starting our bikes when they are in long term storage, such as here in Montana where there can be snow and ice on the roads for 4 to 5 months, thus preventing even short rides. Is it better to start the bike periodically, like every month? Will there be significantly more wear if I just let it sit all winter without starting it?
I'll interject here Bobby. I've been told that periodic starting during long term storage is not good because condensation will build up inside the motor, and never reaching full running temps under load, will accumulate moisture in your oil, ultimately making the oil milky cloudy.

As such, I do not start my bike during the winter unless I take it for a ride.
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Old 02-07-2017, 06:22 AM
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Re: Warming Up Your Bike: Essential or Waste of Fuel?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jargon
condensation will build up inside the motor, and never reaching full running temps under load, will accumulate moisture in your oil, ultimately making the oil milky cloudy.

Said condensation has also been known too attach itself onto c/shaft, rods, bore (if steel) & gears (box) turning them rusty.

Start & go (oil light out) ride like a learner until a couple of bars in the temp gauge.

Most all wear takes place inside an engine when its cold.

Cold engines warm faster under load.
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Old 02-07-2017, 08:38 AM
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Re: Warming Up Your Bike: Essential or Waste of Fuel?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sailor
I voted YES because this was the closest choice for me, ...
Cool. I voted no for exactly the same reasons. Sometimes yes or no just doesn't cut it.
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Old 02-07-2017, 08:53 AM
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Re: Warming Up Your Bike: Essential or Waste of Fuel?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobby
Jean. What are your thoughts about starting our bikes when they are in long term storage, such as here in Montana where there can be snow and ice on the roads for 4 to 5 months, thus preventing even short rides. Is it better to start the bike periodically, like every month? Will there be significantly more wear if I just let it sit all winter without starting it?

For reasons other have explained already in this thread, NEVER start a cold/stored engine for a short time if you do not plan to ride and warm it up completely. For me, warming up is: at least 15 minutes at higher/normal RPM like above 3500 - certainly NOT letting the engine turn at high RPM on center-stand.

However, I still do some other steps to minimize issues of long parked engine at colder temp for more than 2 months:
(1) routine of running engine with fuel stabil before storage (my last ride before storage)

(2) battery charging at 2 weeks intervalls (a few hours depending on charger rate, type and mode)

(3) when garage is warm enough (above 40 F), I put bike in 6th gear and turn rear wheel manually against compression for 1 or 2 turn. Be careful with this as from a center-stand position if you push/turn too hard on rear wheel you may make bike move forward.

(4) about once a month, just before battery charging routine, I turn key ON-OFF twice (with a short pause in between) to force fuel-pump to prime (no engine start !!).
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  #9  
Old 02-07-2017, 09:35 AM
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Re: Warming Up Your Bike: Essential or Waste of Fuel?

There has been a few reported fuel pumps seizures on the GS side.Most of them after a few weeks/months of storage.

Prudent thing to do would be to cycle the ignition on/off a couple times over the winter to prevent them seizures.
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Old 02-07-2017, 10:34 AM
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Re: Warming Up Your Bike: Essential or Waste of Fuel?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jargon
I'll interject here Bobby. I've been told that periodic starting during long term storage is not good because condensation will build up inside the motor, and never reaching full running temps under load, will accumulate moisture in your oil, ultimately making the oil milky cloudy.

As such, I do not start my bike during the winter unless I take it for a ride.

I do this on some of my older bikes (1979 XS750, kz1000) with a crankcase breather vented to air (sorry EPA).
As the engine warms up the crankcase breather starts to smoke around 150F. Because it's aircoooled, the oil temp will get to 180-190F and the cases get hot to touch and the smoking will stop.
But that takes 20+ minutes at least. Not very practical.

As far as warm up, I agree with most of the above. It's almost impossible to get engine fully up to operating temp on a liquid cooled engine idling. Even putt-putting around the neighborhood doesn't do it. Having an accurate oil temp gauge really is informative.

So, yeah, idling more than a minute or two is probably a waste. But that said, I would never get on the throttle hard until I've gone 5-10 minutes at least.


Trackbikes have it the worst. Just because they idle on the grid doesn't mean it's up to temp. Then many of them are straight on it. It might take a lap or two to really warm up the oil.
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  #11  
Old 02-07-2017, 11:02 AM
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Re: Warming Up Your Bike: Essential or Waste of Fuel?

If you are leaving the fuel in the bike for more than few weeks, put the recommended amount of a product like Sta-bil in a full fuel tank. Especially if the tank is metal. fule gums up pretty quick, and condensation in a metal tank? You know..
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Old 02-07-2017, 11:12 AM
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Re: Warming Up Your Bike: Essential or Waste of Fuel?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sailor
For reasons other have explained already in this thread, NEVER start a cold/stored engine for a short time if you do not plan to ride and warm it up completely. For me, warming up is: at least 15 minutes at higher/normal RPM like above 3500 - certainly not letting the engine turn at high RPM on center-stand.


However, I still do some other steps to minimize issues of long parked engine at colder temp for more than 2 months:
(1) routine of running engine with fuel stabil before storage (my last ride before storage)

(2) battery charging at 2 weeks intervalls (a few hours depending on charger rate, type and mode)

(3) when garage is warm enough (above 40 F), I put bike in 6th gear and turn rear wheel manually against compression for 1 or 2 turn. Be careful with this as from a center-stand position if you push/turn too hard on rear wheel you may make bike move forward.

(4) about once a month, just before battery charging routine, I turn key ON-OFF twice (with a short pause in between) to force fuel-pump to prime (no engine start !!).

Thanks. I will add #3 and 4 to my routine.
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Old 02-07-2017, 12:16 PM
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Re: Warming Up Your Bike: Essential or Waste of Fuel?

With a brick engine you can do No3 the lazy way.....takes 2 seconds to disconnect the coil on a K1200RS.Hit the start button for a few revolutions.Darn good oil pumps....you should see how much oil gets distributed inside the engine doing that with the crankcase cover off within only 2-3 revolutions.LOTS....

I like doing it that way....no ignition but fuel pump still runs.But no overdoing that,I wouldn't want to hydrolock my engine.

As for trusting any oil pressure idiot light? No thanks I look at my gauge.BMW spec for the idiot light is around 5-7psi. Engine operates normally at over 70. Max is around 80 at over 6,500 Rpms.
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Old 02-07-2017, 12:23 PM
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Re: Warming Up Your Bike: Essential or Waste of Fuel?

Quote:
Originally Posted by pbegin@burton
With a brick engine you can do No3 the lazy way.....takes 2 seconds to disconnect the coil on a K1200RS.Hit the start button for a few revolutions.Darn good oil pumps....you should see how much oil gets distributed inside the engine doing that with the crankcase cover off within only 2-3 revolutions.LOTS....

I like doing it that way....no ignition but fuel pump still runs.But no overdoing that,I wouldn't want to hydrolock my engine.

As for trusting any oil pressure idiot light? No thanks I look at my gauge.BMW spec for the idiot light is around 5-7psi. Engine operates normally at over 70. Max is around 80 at over 6,500 Rpms.

Pierre,
Good tip!
This is also the way I often do it: remove fuse for ECU to avoid risk of fuel being added (as you said risk of hydrolock if you do it too much or too often with pump working). Same reason as you said: to make oil circulate, keep parts moving and avoid same valve spring(s) being compressed for 5 months.

BUT... on a forum, I am always concerned about risk of trying to teach a method that will not be applied fully/correctly. Hence, I gave him the KISS method that will make him do some arms exercise ;-)
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Old 02-07-2017, 12:34 PM
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Re: Warming Up Your Bike: Essential or Waste of Fuel?

For turning the motor over, why not take advantage of the K12 quirk that will allow the starter to spin without starting the motor when the sidestand is down and transmission in gear? Even quicker/easier than disconnecting the coil, and I assume the injectors won't squirt? Don't want that unburned fuel to wash down the cylinder walls. If you want to spin the fuel pump, just key her up a few times for the prime sequence.
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Old 02-07-2017, 01:01 PM
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Re: Warming Up Your Bike: Essential or Waste of Fuel?

Quote:
Originally Posted by racingiron
For turning the motor over, why not take advantage of the K12 quirk that will allow the starter to spin without starting the motor when the sidestand is down and transmission in gear? Even quicker/easier than disconnecting the coil, and I assume the injectors won't squirt? Don't want that unburned fuel to wash down the cylinder walls. If you want to spin the fuel pump, just key her up a few times for the prime sequence.

Very Good tip... I forgot to include this as I stand by my idea to post simple methods that have little room for mistakes on forums (unless I teach on site with owner by my side).

In the mode that you describe, the fuel-pump will not prime as the safety-starter-interlock mechanism is active. Hence, we can assume that the injectors will not receive any pulse (althouth I have never actually measured it). By the way, although it is obvious to you... for others we need to specify they will ALSO need to pull clutch lever WHILE they activate starter when using this quirck ;-)

I was aware of this quirk and I have used both method myself: either this quirk in the starter-interlocks OR the ECU fuse. Agree that the coil connector is not the best option (out of 3 possible ways) unless you want fuel to be injected.
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Old 02-07-2017, 01:06 PM
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Re: Warming Up Your Bike: Essential or Waste of Fuel?

yeah, don't turn the engine over with the starter unless ignition AND fuel are turned off (ECU). fuel is a great cleanser. the raw unburnt fuel will wash the oil off the rings and cylinder walls nicely. just what you don't want to happen.

best is just to leave the engine be for the winter. don't turn it over at all. store it correctly and let it sit until the first real spring ride.....

has worked for me storing vintage cars, race cars and bikes for....decades.
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Old 02-07-2017, 01:12 PM
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Re: Warming Up Your Bike: Essential or Waste of Fuel?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mlytle
yeah, don't turn the engine over with the starter unless ignition AND fuel are turned off (ECU). fuel is a great cleanser. the raw unburnt fuel will wash the oil off the rings and cylinder walls nicely. just what you don't want to happen.

best is just to leave the engine be for the winter. don't turn it over at all. store it correctly and let it sit until the first real spring ride.....

has worked for me storing vintage cars, race cars and bikes for....decades.

Then.... we need to agree that "we disagree on this". I have also used many methods that have worked for me for 35 years ;-)

I stand by the method of:
(1) do not start unless you ride it to fully warm-up (we all agree on this),

(2) to move parts and circulate oil for long storage: disable fuel, turn engine over (if storage temps are above 40 F). Important to recharge battery (before and after) if you plan to do this with starter.

(3) I also add some very light oil into cylinder before storage but the horizontal nature of brick-engine cylinder needs a more complicated method (to make sure it goes where it should).
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Old 02-07-2017, 01:57 PM
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Re: Warming Up Your Bike: Essential or Waste of Fuel?

we actually kinda agree, but...

the most damage to piston rings and cylinder walls in the life of an engine occurs.....in the first few revolutions of a cold start. that is the time the oil pump is not up to pressure and everything is "dry".

turning an engine over for just a few turns by hand is that situation. no oil pressure. no oil.

for just a winter storage. leave it be. however, if we are talking real long term storage, like years...it is definitely worth the slight downside to turn things over as in those longer terms rust from moist atmospheres is an issue and everything needs to be moved a bit.

this is a bit of an academic discussion. reality is for winter storage...it just doesn't matter. turn it over, don't turn it over....the risk is infinitesimal either way in the normal lifespan of an engine! owners should do what makes them feel better..the engine doesn't care...

PS - Sailor...what do you sail? I have long history with sailing.
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Old 02-07-2017, 02:40 PM
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Re: Warming Up Your Bike: Essential or Waste of Fuel?

Quote:
Originally Posted by pbegin@burton
There has been a few reported fuel pumps seizures on the GS side.Most of them after a few weeks/months of storage.

Prudent thing to do would be to cycle the ignition on/off a couple times over the winter to prevent them seizures.
Awesome nugget of info, I never knew.
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'11 F800R (traded for GSA)
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Old 02-07-2017, 08:05 PM
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Re: Warming Up Your Bike: Essential or Waste of Fuel?

Here's what the Owner's Manual states.

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Old 02-07-2017, 08:31 PM
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Re: Warming Up Your Bike: Essential or Waste of Fuel?

Or go back to the instructions for the R1100RSL which specifically stated not to let it idle at all due to people starting them in garages with the cold start lever on then having the bike catch fire and burn the garage/house down. The pipes get cheery red PDQ and with minimal air over them from the lower fairing and it didn't end well...

I'm with Sailor, let it idle 30 sec to 2 minutes depending on temp to let the oil get moving then drive away gently. No start or roll-over for me during the winter, periodic key on for the pump and occasional Tender charge but I don't leave it plugged in.
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Old 02-07-2017, 09:00 PM
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Re: Warming Up Your Bike: Essential or Waste of Fuel?

For a while I tried both. When I wanted to be around other bikers, you know, MotoGP guys I came across the stores I done as the Roman's did, even though it didn't really make sense to let it warm up. Some guys are fanatics about it like the ones I knew will ridicule you for it but then I tolt them some science.

More RPM's equals more combustion. More combustion equals more heat and more heat warms up the oil and engine quicker than at idle. They kind of looked off to the side and you could tell their intelligence was insulted but hey. They were local Texas guys who haven't seen a cold winter and or cold days. Being from Michigan sometimes i would start my truck up in cold weather and then go but most times not. By the time i got to the place i was going the truck was warm so i had to leave anyways. I got used to being in the cold all the time. The premise with the engine is rhe same for a car or bike.

More combustion means more heat and more heats means more heat quicker. Simple. So now i no longer wait for my bike to warm up. I put my helmet on, that's it. 1 bar or no bars at all. It is Feburary and today was 87ºF. The last time i was in Michigan at this time it was -31ºf and then, my truck had a hard time starting lolol. Because of that reassurance, i know thaf my bike will be fine on a nice, warm 64ºF morning.
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Old 02-08-2017, 07:38 AM
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Re: Warming Up Your Bike: Essential or Waste of Fuel?

I don't understand 290 views, & 26 votes...
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Old 02-08-2017, 08:37 AM
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Re: Warming Up Your Bike: Essential or Waste of Fuel?

Neither I guess....
If by "warm up" you mean to operating temperature, I don't.
But I do start the engine and let it idle for a minute while I but my helmet and gloves on,
check the settings, wait for the other riders, etc.. then ride off smoothly.
Maybe it comes from finding that the key is still in my pocket after everything is on.
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Old 02-08-2017, 10:18 AM
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Re: Warming Up Your Bike: Essential or Waste of Fuel?

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Originally Posted by cousi
Neither I guess....

Maybe it comes from finding that the key is still in my pocket after everything is on.

LOL!!! I have so done that...more than once.
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Old 02-08-2017, 10:19 AM
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Re: Warming Up Your Bike: Essential or Waste of Fuel?

Quote:
Originally Posted by cousi
Neither I guess....
If by "warm up" you mean to operating temperature, I don't.
But I do start the engine and let it idle for a minute while I but my helmet and gloves on,
check the settings, wait for the other riders, etc.. then ride off smoothly.
Maybe it comes from finding that the key is still in my pocket after everything is on.

That's about where I am, too. Until the motor's up to operating temps, I try not to really get into the throttle. Warmed up? Hell yeah!

I guess turning the key on to cycle the pump might do something good. I'd put in a "store it for the winter" additive, run the bike around the block (to get the stuff everywhere in the fuel system) and call it good. BTW, something like a Battery Tender trickle charger is a Very Good Thing for the battery. I put one on a timer and let it run 6-8/day. Fully charged batteries withstand cold better.

One thing not to do is fire up the motor "to keep things loose" and shut it down. That's only going to create ugly acids as the exhaust stream hits condensation in the pipe, cat, and muffler. Bad, Bad, Bad.
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Old 02-08-2017, 12:49 PM
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Re: Warming Up Your Bike: Essential or Waste of Fuel?

I guess I'm the only one who gets on and goes like stink without regard of engine temp. Tire temp means more to me.
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Old 02-08-2017, 12:58 PM
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Re: Warming Up Your Bike: Essential or Waste of Fuel?

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Originally Posted by justjoe
I guess I'm the only one who gets on and goes like stink without regard of engine temp. Tire temp means more to me.
Hopefully true, since that is a very bad idea.
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Old 02-08-2017, 01:01 PM
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Re: Warming Up Your Bike: Essential or Waste of Fuel?

Worry about tire temp on the road? Might as well store the bike with tire heaters... Whatever lights your lights.

Hard on the throttle before the lubes thin back out and everything is fully oiled?

It's your bike, ride your own ride.
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Old 02-08-2017, 01:45 PM
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Re: Warming Up Your Bike: Essential or Waste of Fuel?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick
Here's what the Owner's Manual states.


Ah yes the cold start procedure. I use it at 40-45F and below.If ambient temps are at 40 when I leave they probably were closer to 32 overnight. Big masses of Aluminium/Magnesium/Steel/Lubes are probably still at around 32 or below by 10.00 AM when the sun finally climbs over the hill and tells me what a fine cold riding day it shall be.

Start bike with clutch pulled.Hold clutch in for a few seconds.Let clutch go,watch tach drop a little as the cold transmission goes spinning,tach quickly climbs back up to cold idle RPMs.Walk out of the shed to avoid the exhaust fumes,roll up collar,ear plugs on,helmet on,gloves on....fresh breath of air,helmeted head dip not to bang into the door,kick the tires for a pressure check?Sit on bike,glance at oil pressure gauge and push it out.Carefully climb driveway covered with slippery leaves....carefully drive down the salty gravel road.....hit the brakes and exercise the ABS? 2 Kms? Then 1.5 of deer infested paved road to the Highway.Warm enough by then to go to the rev limiter.Hum.....wheel may pop up shifting into second.Careful there....
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Old 02-08-2017, 04:45 PM
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Re: Warming Up Your Bike: Essential or Waste of Fuel?

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Originally Posted by BeemerMikeTX
Hopefully true, since that is a very bad idea.

I've treated all my bikes this way. If it can't handle it, I don't want it.
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Old 02-08-2017, 06:35 PM
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Re: Warming Up Your Bike: Essential or Waste of Fuel?

Quote:
Originally Posted by justjoe
I've treated all my bikes this way. If it can't handle it, I don't want it.
Doesn't make it a good idea.
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Old 02-08-2017, 10:24 PM
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Re: Warming Up Your Bike: Essential or Waste of Fuel?

Ok, stupid question, what is the purpose of releasing the clutch on a sub 32F cold start even though you're in neutral?
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Old 02-08-2017, 11:12 PM
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Re: Warming Up Your Bike: Essential or Waste of Fuel?

engages clutch, which spins tranny input shaft, which starts throwing oil around in the tranny.
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Old 02-09-2017, 02:09 AM
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Re: Warming Up Your Bike: Essential or Waste of Fuel?


Although I do it regardless of the temperature. Can't hurt, might help.
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Old 02-09-2017, 08:44 AM
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Re: Warming Up Your Bike: Essential or Waste of Fuel?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jargon
Ok, stupid question, what is the purpose of releasing the clutch on a sub 32F cold start even though you're in neutral?
You mean when starting the bike? Even in neutral, with the clutch engaged some of the gears and parts inside the transmission still turn (in the cold, heavy transmission gear oil), which would add load to the engine that would have to be overcome by the starter motor and battery. Pulling in the clutch lever ("release the clutch") reduces this load until the engine actually starts.
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Old 02-09-2017, 08:53 AM
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Re: Warming Up Your Bike: Essential or Waste of Fuel?

Depending on temperature - determines how long I let the bike idle - in the warm weather when temps don't get below 50-60 degrees overnight - I start it - put my helmet on and ride away - take it easy for a few miles and then never think about it.

When overnight temps are below 50 degrees I let the bike run for about 3-4 minutes or in the case of my K1300S if 2 temp bars come up first - then again ride away taking it easy for several miles. Both engine and tires need a little heat.

When it is cold out at start up and the temp is say 40 degrees or colder and the temp is going to stay around there for awhile - I start the bike and I let it run for about 5 minutes - heck typically maybe the first temp bar came up and then I do what I always do take it easy for a few miles. Now I'm thinking about my tires.

Now with my RR at the track I do it a little differently - first session of the day - if the track I'm at does not do a few warm up laps(follow the leader thing) I let the bike run until I see at least 165 degrees water temp - I typically ride in the advanced group or expert group and you don't have the opportunity to take it easy - everyone pits out and is on the juice immediately. Most everyone runs tire warmers so they are not concerned about cold tires.

If warm up laps - then I do a few minutes and pit out do the warm up laps taking it pretty easy and then don't think about it and hammer away.

If the track goes cold for lunch - and depending on the group you are in the bike could be off for more than 1.5 hours - then I will let it run at least a few minutes before pitting out.
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Old 02-09-2017, 09:29 AM
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Re: Warming Up Your Bike: Essential or Waste of Fuel?

For all of you backyard engineers, read it and weep!

"In a nutshell, an internal combustion engine works by using pistons to compress a mixture of air and vaporized fuel within a cylinder. The compressed mixture is then ignited to create a combustion event—a little controlled explosion that powers the engine.


When your engine is cold, the gasoline is less likely to evaporate and create the correct ratio of air and vaporized fuel for combustion. Engines with electronic fuel injection have sensors that compensate for the cold by pumping more gasoline into the mixture. The engine continues to run rich in this way until it heats up to about 40 degrees Fahrenheit.


"That's a problem because you're actually putting extra fuel into the combustion chamber to make it burn and some of it can get onto the cylinder walls," Stephen Ciatti, a mechanical engineer who specializes in combustion engines at the Argonne National Laboratory, told Business Insider. "Gasoline is an outstanding solvent and it can actually wash oil off the walls if you run it in those cold idle conditions for an extended period of time."


The life of components like piston rings and cylinder liners can be significantly reduced by gasoline washing away the lubricating oil, not to mention the extra fuel that is used while the engine runs rich. Driving your car is the fastest way to warm the engine up to 40 degrees so it switches back to a normal fuel to air ratio. Even though warm air generated by the radiator will flow into the cabin after a few minutes, idling does surprisingly little to warm the actual engine. The best thing to do is start the car, take a minute to knock the ice off your windows, and get going.


Of course, hopping into your car and gunning it straightaway will put unnecessary strain on your engine. It takes 5 to 15 minutes for your engine to warm up, so take it nice and easy for the first part of your drive."


Like I said earlier, it's more important to warm up your tires than to worry about warming up the engine. By the time your tires are ready to go, your motor is ready to be throttled!!
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Old 02-09-2017, 11:24 AM
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Re: Warming Up Your Bike: Essential or Waste of Fuel?

That's an interesting chain of reasoning. Argonne Labs or not, it's still just plain silly. It ignores things like ECU's recognizing the difference between starting cold and running at normal temperatures. It ignores that billions of motors of various types, start rich by design but manage to run stay in service for a very long time.

Practical experience shows that leaving a non-ECU motor running rich too long will cause problems, mostly poor running, smoking, etc., if run when the motor is up to a minimum temperature. Try to put a load on a motor operated that way and often the motor will stall or run slower than expected, The message is clear: "open the choke, dummy!"

Yes, some gasoline may wash down some lubricant. Which is a compelling argument for warming up: restore full lubrication, to minimize wear under load, before winding up the motor. NTL there's a reason why piston rings are usually softer than cylinder wall; it's easier to replace rings than cylinders. Some wear is always inevitable. Entropy will not be denied.

Either Ciatti was taken out of context, or is living in lab-land. Practical experience doesn't support the conclusions shown here.

Again, ride your own ride.
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Old 02-09-2017, 11:45 AM
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Re: Warming Up Your Bike: Essential or Waste of Fuel?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RBEmerson
That's an interesting chain of reasoning. Argonne Labs or not, it's still just plain silly.

What's silly to me is the value people place on other peoples opinions. Although, I would trust an internationally recognized laboratory over the rantings of the inhabitants of this deplorable site, most notably myself!
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Old 02-09-2017, 01:49 PM
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Re: Warming Up Your Bike: Essential or Waste of Fuel?

Okay so should I just start my RR - pit out and in less than 1 minute spin the engine up to 13K rpm's?

I'm not being a wise guy - everything I know about this subject - which is not that much - tells me - I should do it just how I've been doing it - depending on ambient temperature.

I understand the oils we are using today are very light - I use 5W40 in both of the beemers.

I understand these oils start working quicker than say a straight 30 or 40 weight but exactly what temps do we need the engine and all the components to be at to safely say go full blast if you want?

Or does it matter as long as the oil is up to a temp that it is effectively lubricating?
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Old 02-09-2017, 02:35 PM
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Re: Warming Up Your Bike: Essential or Waste of Fuel?

You should probably do what makes you happy. Science says you're good to go.
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Old 02-09-2017, 05:08 PM
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Re: Warming Up Your Bike: Essential or Waste of Fuel?

Quote:
Originally Posted by justjoe
You should probably do what makes you happy. Science says you're good to go.

Q - Why did they put remote starter on in my truck then?

A - Because a warm ass and steering wheel make me happy!
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Old 02-09-2017, 06:39 PM
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Re: Warming Up Your Bike: Essential or Waste of Fuel?

There is a reason old race bikes had three gauges. Oil pressure, oil temp, and tach.

Oil temp will take several minutes of moderate use to get up to temp.

Oil viscosity depends on oil temp. Too low temp and the oil is too thick and doesn't flow as easily. Rev a close tolerance engine with an oil too cold and there may be issues.

Now in the past, in racing many used single weight oil. These days multiviscosity oils let an oil flow better at lower temps. Still, I think the safest practice is to treat a cold engine like cold tires.

Just an opinion...

Quote:
Originally Posted by brucev
Okay so should I just start my RR - pit out and in less than 1 minute spin the engine up to 13K rpm's?

I'm not being a wise guy - everything I know about this subject - which is not that much - tells me - I should do it just how I've been doing it - depending on ambient temperature.

I understand the oils we are using today are very light - I use 5W40 in both of the beemers.

I understand these oils start working quicker than say a straight 30 or 40 weight but exactly what temps do we need the engine and all the components to be at to safely say go full blast if you want?

Or does it matter as long as the oil is up to a temp that it is effectively lubricating?
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Old 02-09-2017, 09:32 PM
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Re: Warming Up Your Bike: Essential or Waste of Fuel?

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Originally Posted by jcw

Just an opinion...

Duly noted and filed accordingly. Now if we could just get a good oil thread.
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Old 02-10-2017, 01:14 AM
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Re: Warming Up Your Bike: Essential or Waste of Fuel?

Quote:
Originally Posted by justjoe
"Of course, hopping into your car and gunning it straightaway will put unnecessary strain on your engine. It takes 5 to 15 minutes for your engine to warm up, so take it nice and easy for the first part of your drive."


Like I said earlier, it's more important to warm up your tires than to worry about warming up the engine. By the time your tires are ready to go, your motor is ready to be throttled!!

The article you quote and your final conclusion seem to be at odds with one another.
Unless you feel that warming up the engine means longer than 5-15 minutes of mild to moderate use.
Which is not what I was saying. 15 minutes would be more than enough time. 5 minutes or a couple laps of moderate throttle around a track sounds plenty. An engine should be adequately warmed up and up to temp.

Articles like that are just another person's a$$hole (to go along with mine), whoops, I mean opinion.
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Old 02-10-2017, 09:28 AM
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Re: Warming Up Your Bike: Essential or Waste of Fuel?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jcw
Articles like that are just another person's a$$hole (to go along with mine), whoops, I mean opinion.

Oh, I didn't know you were a mechanical engineer specializing in combustion engines and working at a internationally renowned research institute dealing specifically with engines. I thought you were just some a**hole.....errr, Internet expert blowing smoke on website with unknown credentials. My bad!

So, with your vast experience and education, technical training and research, how long does it take for lubricant to resurface the moving parts on an internal combustion engine after ignition? One revolution, two, a dozen? How much efficiency does that lubricant maintain at lower temps? Is this the beginnings of an oil thread? Somehow, I think the guy knows what he is talking about.

Like I said earlier, do what makes you happy. My comment about worrying more about tire temps stands. I would never take off and start thrashing a bike in cold temps prior to my tires coming up to temp because that is a more immediate threat to me as a rider than the temp of my motor. And how long does it take for tires to come up to temp? A mile? How many revolutions will it take to get oil pumped into every crack, crevice and cranny of a motor? And does the oil get dispersed better at 8k RPM or 1k? So if you are going 60mph, you do one mile in a minute or 48k revolutions, are you properly protected then? I guess we should check the oil pump too while we are at it.

I guess we will have to make this an oil thread to get to the bottom of it. Or not.
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Old 02-10-2017, 10:16 AM
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Re: Warming Up Your Bike: Essential or Waste of Fuel?

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Originally Posted by justjoe
So if you are going 60mph, you do one mile in six minutes or 48k revolutions, are you properly protected then?
All these years I've had this wrong!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Old 02-10-2017, 10:29 AM
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Re: Warming Up Your Bike: Essential or Waste of Fuel?

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Originally Posted by brucev
All these years I've had this wrong!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Doing what wrong? Did I bugger my math there? If it makes you happy you are doing it right! The rest is just BS and boogeyman nonsense.

Edited to add: Fixed! Lol!! Thanks for the catch!
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Old 02-10-2017, 10:49 AM
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Re: Warming Up Your Bike: Essential or Waste of Fuel?

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Originally Posted by justjoe
Doing what wrong? Did I bugger my math there? If it makes you happy you are doing it right! The rest is just BS and boogeyman nonsense.

Edited to add: Fixed! Lol!! Thanks for the catch!
60 mph is a mile a minute that last time I checked.
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Old 02-10-2017, 10:53 AM
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Re: Warming Up Your Bike: Essential or Waste of Fuel?

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Originally Posted by brucev
60 mph is a mile a minute that last time I checked.

Well aren't you the idiot savant! Lol!I just have the idiot part down!
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Old 02-10-2017, 11:01 AM
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Re: Warming Up Your Bike: Essential or Waste of Fuel?

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Originally Posted by justjoe
Well aren't you the idiot savant! Lol!I just have the idiot part down!
Hey - give me credit - I actually found something that I knew the correct answer to.

The more I read this thread the more I think whatever way we do it in most cases it's okay. If you are the type to fire up the bike and ride away right away - okay - if you are the type that likes to let it run a little that's okay as well.

The key is to be smart - if you ride away immediately take it easy for a few miles to get the engine - oil- water -tires up to temp.

If you like warming it up a little that is also fine - I would love to see what long term effects this has on an engine in my case - oh yeah I sell the bike in three years - I bet it can last that long.
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Old 02-10-2017, 11:08 AM
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Re: Warming Up Your Bike: Essential or Waste of Fuel?

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Originally Posted by brucev
Hey - give me credit - I actually found something that I knew the correct answer to.

The more I read this thread the more I think whatever way we do it in most cases it's okay. If you are the type to fire up the bike and ride away right away - okay - if you are the type that likes to let it run a little that's okay as well.

The key is to be smart - if you ride away immediately take it easy for a few miles to get the engine - oil- water -tires up to temp.

If you like warming it up a little that is also fine - I would love to see what long term effects this has on an engine in my case - oh yeah I sell the bike in three years - I bet it can last that long.

I agree. It doesn't make that much of a difference. And I thought I did give you credit!

And don't tell me what to do. If I want to start the bike and rip on the throttle then that's what I'll do!!!
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Old 02-10-2017, 11:25 AM
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Re: Warming Up Your Bike: Essential or Waste of Fuel?

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Originally Posted by brucev
60 mph is a mile a minute that last time I checked.

That is exactly my average GPS speed over thousand of miles crossing the continent.No interstates and had to scrape a little frost off the seat twice as the bike warmed up a little.

Oil? I keep my frequent oil/filter changes in the CAD $30-40.00 range.

Yep....sit ass on bike at around 08.00 AM.Get off at supper time? One can sure get somewhere at a mile a minute average.
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Old 02-10-2017, 11:44 AM
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Re: Warming Up Your Bike: Essential or Waste of Fuel?

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Originally Posted by justjoe
I agree. It doesn't make that much of a difference. And I thought I did give you credit!

And don't tell me what to do. If I want to start the bike and rip on the throttle then that's what I'll do!!!
And one more thing - I don't worry about warming up the tires - I just pit out and let it rip - at the track that is - tire warmers - just awesome.
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Old 02-10-2017, 12:34 PM
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Re: Warming Up Your Bike: Essential or Waste of Fuel?

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Originally Posted by justjoe
Oh, I didn't know you were a mechanical engineer specializing in combustion engines and working at a internationally renowned research institute dealing specifically with engines. I thought you were just some a**hole.....errr, Internet expert blowing smoke on website with unknown credentials. My bad!

So, with your vast experience and education, technical training and research, how long does it take for lubricant to resurface the moving parts on an internal combustion engine after ignition? One revolution, two, a dozen? How much efficiency does that lubricant maintain at lower temps? Is this the beginnings of an oil thread? Somehow, I think the guy knows what he is talking about.

Like I said earlier, do what makes you happy. My comment about worrying more about tire temps stands. I would never take off and start thrashing a bike in cold temps prior to my tires coming up to temp because that is a more immediate threat to me as a rider than the temp of my motor. And how long does it take for tires to come up to temp? A mile? How many revolutions will it take to get oil pumped into every crack, crevice and cranny of a motor? And does the oil get dispersed better at 8k RPM or 1k? So if you are going 60mph, you do one mile in a minute or 48k revolutions, are you properly protected then? I guess we should check the oil pump too while we are at it.

I guess we will have to make this an oil thread to get to the bottom of it. Or not.

Ok.....
Thing is I see absolutely no science in that article you posted. Just opinion from a really smart guy that I seem to agree with.

Don't waste time idling a cold engine. But don't full throttle it either for 5-15 minutes of mild moderate use.

And when was Argonne national lab doing experiments on internal combustion engines?

But yeah you're right...
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Old 02-10-2017, 01:59 PM
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Re: Warming Up Your Bike: Essential or Waste of Fuel?

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Originally Posted by jcw
Ok.....
And when was Argonne national lab doing experiments on internal combustion engines?

But yeah you're right...

http://www.anl.gov/energy-systems/gr...ines-and-fuels
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Old 02-10-2017, 02:13 PM
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Re: Warming Up Your Bike: Essential or Waste of Fuel?

I live about half an hour from there. We used to go on school field trips when i was a kid.

Thanks for the link.
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Old 02-10-2017, 02:13 PM
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Re: Warming Up Your Bike: Essential or Waste of Fuel?

I know this is being slightly snarky but... As I fired up the snowblower yesterday, I wondered about how long it was going to be before the tires came to full temperature.
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